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What's the call?


Chief Rick

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With pistols, first engage the five bottles then place all remaining rounds on the dump plate.

 

ONLY STANDING BOTTLES OR MISSES ON THE DUMP PLATE COUNT AS MISSES.

 

With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets.

Capture.JPG.78151bf3c4cd49075a1a698b971f71ff.JPG

Shooter engages the bottles with pistols. 

The first three shots knock over the first three bottles. 

The fourth shot misses a bottle but hits a rifle knock-down, making it fall. 

The fifth and sixth shots knock over the last two bottles, shooter then engages and hits the stationary dump target with the remaining four rounds.

 

Shooter then picks up rifle and engages the rifle knock-down targets.  There are only nine targets standing due to one being hit by a pistol round. 

 

The first three rounds knock down the first three targets. 

Shooter misses the fourth target with the fourth shot. 

Shooter re-engages the fourth target, knocks it down and then knocks down the remaining targets.

 

What’s the call?

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3 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Clean and a "p"  instructions clearly state with rifle engage "all" rifle knockdown targets, shooter did not engage all knockdown.

Rafe

Shooter engaged all the available Rifle targets. How are you going to penalize the shooter for not engaging a target that was down?

 

Stan

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5 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Clean and a "p"  instructions clearly state with rifle engage "all" rifle knockdown targets, shooter did not engage all knockdown.

If there's a miss one cannot say which target was engaged. So, with the round that missed the shooter could have engaged the target that was already down and all targets were engaged.

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I would think at least a miss...if not a miss and a P. The old rule of shoot where it was would come into play.So a miss for the miss and a P for shooting the same target twice. And the course was not set up properly if a miss on the handgun target hit a rifle target.

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I would think two misses and a P. Nowhere in the instructions does it say you can reengage a missed bottle target. He missed a pistol bottle target so that's one miss. He missed a rifle bottle target so that's a miss. The P comes in when he reengaged the missed rifle bottle target. As for the fallen rifle bottle target he should have just shot at where it was, and then he wouldn't have had an extra rifle round. The instructions above say to engage the 5 pistol & 10 rifle bottle knockdowns and standing bottles remaining are misses. The instructions do not say to engage the bottle knockdowns until all are down and put the remaining rounds on the dump plate. I agree that the stage instructions are vauge and the stage wasn't set up very well if a pistol miss can hit a rifle knockdown.

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One miss

 

5-SECOND PENALTIES Misses are 5-Second penalties. Revolver, rifle, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes: - Each missed target. - Each unfired round. - Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ. - Each target hit with an incorrect firearm – either intentionally or by mistake. - Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition

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Clean.

Curious, was there an option on rifle targets that are clear hits but don't fall to be made up, or is the shooter at the mercy of targets staying adjusted.

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2 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

With pistols, first engage the five bottles then place all remaining rounds on the dump plate.

 

ONLY STANDING BOTTLES OR MISSES ON THE DUMP PLATE COUNT AS MISSES.

 

With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets.

Capture.JPG.78151bf3c4cd49075a1a698b971f71ff.JPG

Shooter engages the bottles with pistols. 

The first three shots knock over the first three bottles. 

The fourth shot misses a bottle but hits a rifle knock-down, making it fall. 

The fifth and sixth shots knock over the last two bottles, shooter then engages and hits the stationary dump target with the remaining four rounds.

 

Shooter then picks up rifle and engages the rifle knock-down targets.  There are only nine targets standing due to one being hit by a pistol round. 

 

The first three rounds knock down the first three targets. 

Shooter misses the fourth target with the fourth shot. 

Shooter re-engages the fourth target, knocks it down and then knocks down the remaining targets.

 

What’s the call?

All bottles were down and no misses on the dump, so pistols were clean, per instruction. 

Rifle may have failed to engage the target that was previously knocked down.  Instead shooter might have engaged a missed target a second time (engaged the wrong target).  HOWEVER -- no rifle target order is instructed.  You therefore cannot tell for sure which rifle target was being engaged by the miss, so it is possible that round was intended to engage the already-down target.

Benefit to the shooter.  All plates are down. Prescribed round count was fired.  Instructions give no target order.  I would call it clean

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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"ONLY STANDING BOTTLES OR MISSES ON THE DUMP PLATE COUNT AS MISSES."

This trumps SASS rules for misses such as wrong type target hit (pistol vs rifle), as they are specific stage instructions.

Yes, the instructions could be better but since all KD are down (no standing bottles) and all dump rounds were hits, shooter is clean.

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35 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

Each target hit with an incorrect firearm – either intentionally or by mistake.

And the gun being fired when this happened was the revolver.  And the instructions allowed any makeup shots on a missed revolver target until the shooter either ran out of that ammo, or started firing on the dump target.

 

So, you may think the shooter had a miss, but that is not true with a makeup style of scenario, where until the ammo is expended, the shooter can reverse that miss with a subsequent hit.

 

good luck, GJ

 

.

 

 

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I think this is a P, but it is tricky.  The shooter missed with the pistol, but the instructions allow the shooter to re-engage missed pistol KD's. He does this, there fore no miss with the pistol.  The shooter misses a rifle target and re-engages it knocking it down.  The instructions did not allow rifle misses to be made up because there are 10 rounds and 10 KD's.  Did not shoot the rifle string IAW stage instructions.

 

I may be wrong...wouldn't be the first time :D

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I find it interesting how many WTC are a result of poor stage writing, poor stage design and the posse marshal not seeing the potential problems.  Did any of those listed take an RO II course lately?

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16 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

clean

 

stage writer needs a bit of help

 

Please write this as you would to make it better, using the targets as indicated.

11 minutes ago, wyliefoxEsquire said:

I find it interesting how many WTC are a result of poor stage writing, poor stage design and the posse marshal not seeing the potential problems.  Did any of those listed take an RO II course lately?

Yes.  I guess we're just not perfect.

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No call.  All targets down and there were 20 bangs.  Without seeing the setup, it appears to me the rifle targets were set so that misses could hit them easily.  Shooter is not responsible for poorly placed rifle targets.

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Per the stage instructions there are no pistol misses. Rifle had 10 shots fired with 10 targets down. 
Doesn’t matter what you may believe the shooter was aiming at when he missed one with the rifle, can’t judge intent, only results. 
Clean.

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15 minutes ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said:

I think this is a P, but it is tricky.  The shooter missed with the pistol, but the instructions allow the shooter to re-engage missed pistol KD's. He does this, there fore no miss with the pistol.  The shooter misses a rifle target and re-engages it knocking it down.  The instructions did not allow rifle misses to be made up because there are 10 rounds and 10 KD's.  Did not shoot the rifle string IAW stage instructions.

 

I may be wrong...wouldn't be the first time :D

You don't know for sure which target was aimed at on the rifle miss.  He could have fired that round at the already-down plate (shoot where it was).

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12 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

You don't know for sure which target was aimed at on the rifle miss.  He could have fired that round at the already-down plate (shoot where it was).

 

"The first three rounds knock down the first three targets. 

Shooter misses the fourth target with the fourth shot. 

Shooter re-engages the fourth target, knocks it down and then knocks down the remaining targets."

 

Seems clear enough based off the information given.

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This is the first time we've run this scenario with the targets set up in these positions.

 

We called it clean.

 

Per pistol instructions, only standing bottles or misses on the dump plate are misses - after 10 rounds, there were no standing bottles or misses on the dump target.

 

Per rifle instructions, there was no target order.  10 shots were fired and 10 plates were down.

 

Would any of you calling a P or a Miss change your call if wind had caused one of the rifle targets to fall?

 

The issue was with some of the rifle target locations not allowing a clean miss of a pistol target without affecting a rifle target.  This is not an issue with stationary targets, but as you can see it can have an effect on knock-downs.  I have ideas on how to make that work better going forward.

 

We don't shoot these often because it takes a lot of time to set them up in first place to ensure they fall reliably, without falling with a gust of wind.  It also takes considerably more time to reset.

 

That said, we enjoy variety and using what we have.

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7 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

Would any of you calling a P or a Miss change your call if wind had caused one of the rifle targets to fall?

 

Yes...IF...the shooter missed a rifle target that was up, then reengaged the same target when the instructions did not allow for such.

 

No...IF... the shooter hit all other targets and "shot where it was" on the target blown down by the wind.

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13 minutes ago, Lucky Lead Pepper said:

 

Yes...IF...the shooter missed a rifle target that was up, then reengaged the same target when the instructions did not allow for such.

 

No...IF... the shooter hit all other targets and "shot where it was" on the target blown down by the wind.

 

Yes

 

Clean

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I use KD for most of the monthlies I write and usually have SG makeups.

10 targets (5 plate and 5 KD. "ATB, with rifle engage all targets once each... (pistols next, doesn't matter). If needed with SG, engage any KD remaining.

Note: Rifle misses on the KD will not be misses unless left up."

 

If you used a dump after the KD, I'd say " engage KD until down with remaining rounds on the dump target. Note: Misses on KD will not be misses unless left up; misses on the dump will be scored as misses."

 

Just how I do it.

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2 hours ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

Me??
One “ P”.. for inadvertently hitting a rifle target with a pistol..:wacko::huh:

one miss .. for failure to engage the already downed rifle target..

Shooting a target with the wrong gun (pistol target with rifle, or rifle target with pistol) is not a P.  SHB page 21 "5 second penalties - each target hit with an incorrect firearm." 

 

In this case stage instructions over ride that penalty, at least that's how I would call it.

 

Tough crowd, no offense, but there's no award for 'finding' penalties. 


Clean, next shooter.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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1 miss and a P.

A miss because all 10 rifle targets were not engaged. The target that was down is shoot where it was.

A P because one of the rifle targets was re-engaged.

 

BS

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Miss. Intruction clearly state that the rifle Targets are to be engaged with the rifle. 10rds. One rifle target was not engaged with a rifle rnd. Rather the rnd missed the intended target. Only 9 were knocked down with instuctions for the rifle. So a Miss. If pistols had been first then followed by rifle, shooter would just have to shoot were it was.

Seems like poor stage instructions and target placements.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Marshal Dan Troop 70448
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1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

1 miss and a P.

A miss because all 10 rifle targets were not engaged. The target that was down is shoot where it was.

A P because one of the rifle targets was re-engaged.

 

BS

Where in the instructions does it say that not engaging a target is a miss?  Where does it say that a target can't be re-engaged

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10 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Where in the instructions does it say that not engaging a target is a miss?  Where does it say that a target can't be re-engaged

 

Seems like "With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets" covers that.  I read it as all 10 rifle targets are to be engaged with one round each from the rifle . . . provided that it was to be loaded with only 10 rounds and no reload allowed.  In the case of the already downed plate, then the shooter must shoot "where it was".  Since the shooter did not do that then it seems like he/she earned a miss.  Since no makeup was allowed, via "With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets", then it appears that a P would have been earned as well.  The pistol run was clean.

 

At least, that's how I'm reading it.  May be right, may be wrong, but interested in how this shakes out.

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7 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:

 

Seems like "With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets" covers that.  I read it as all 10 rifle targets are to be engaged with one round each from the rifle . . . provided that it was to be loaded with only 10 rounds and no reload allowed.  In the case of the already downed plate, then the shooter must shoot "where it was".  Since the shooter did not do that then it seems like he/she earned a miss.  Since no makeup was allowed, via "With rifle, engage the 10 rifle knock-down targets", then it appears that a P would have been earned as well.  The pistol run was clean.

 

At least, that's how I'm reading it.  May be right, may be wrong, but interested in how this shakes out.

You definitely have a point.  Given what I see as some ambiguity I would not penalize the shooter.

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Were rifle KDs also "bottles"?  If not, then previous line in instructions doesn't apply to rifle targets.  

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Clean.

 

The miss flowchart goes down the right side for not hitting the correct type of target with the pistol.

 

So assess misses. The stage instruction specifies that this particular instance is not a miss (was not when engaging the dump target). And while the shooter "should" shoot where the downed rifle target was, I see no penalty associated with the text.

 

So back to the flowchart, no further call.

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