Eot starting position

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 minute ago, Shawnee Hills said:

 

Fair points for sure.  Unfortunately, it appears like some PMs didn’t take the match that seriously.  How is this to be avoided in the future?  Match directors can only give so much ‘direction’ and cannot police everyone at all times.

I wasn’t there and don’t have a dog in this hunt either.  Just trying to learn and understand how things like this happen and how it would/should be corrected. 

I think as others have said earlier these type instructions should be written in the stage instructions.  But I do realize it is very easy to miss something when you are trying to get a stage book ready for the printer.

 

Randy

[Dusty Devil Dale]

"Level playing field" is good sounding rhetoric, but in the real world of CAS, there are a lot of variables that can affect stage times.  Spotting/counting is a big one.  PM direction clarity can be another.  Prop or target position v. shooter height, or even weather and light condition variation through a day can be enough to affect final standing.   Nothing is ever truly "level" across 600+ individuals and 12 stages. 

 

We play this game as it is, with all of its inherent weaknesses and variations. We all do our best to minimize inequity where we can see or anticipate it. But at times, mistakes are going to be made. 

Stuff happens. 

A part of playing is accepting some inherent inequity.  Every sport has it. 

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

Posse 33 all long guns were staged flat on the prop!

 

TB

[Shawnee Hills]

3 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I think as others have said earlier these type instructions should be written in the stage instructions.  But I do realize it is very easy to miss something when you are trying to get a stage book ready for the printer.

 

Randy

Reading through this thread, it seems as though the written instructions stated one thing and some PMs were stating something different.  Perhaps there was a last minute change that was communicated to the PMs on walkthrough that didn’t quite sink in with a few?  If so, that’s unfortunate but understandable how it could happen.

[Shooting Bull]

Posse 32 was instructed more than once in VERY clear terms all long guns had to be staged flat on the table. No part on the board. 
 

Side note: As a right handed SxS shooter I had no problem staging both in good positions to be easily picked up. Yes, there could have been more room. But what was there was perfectly acceptable. 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

1 hour ago, Half-a-Hand Henri said:

Posse 4 did it correctly, too.

Of course.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

You all know, of course, that it would not take a complete printer-set-up match book to be printed to update a few of the stage instructions.    Reprint those pages with the new instructions and pass those out to the PMs and post one copy on the affected loading table for the stage(s).    Done.   I do COMPLETE 6 stage descriptions for local matches in less than 15 minutes on my ink jet printer.  Staple or tape them in match books for the PMs if you have to.

 

When posse walk-throughs are done the evening before the match starts, there is time to get any revisions printed out and checked, especially when additional notes come from discussions during the walk-through.

 

good luck, GJ

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Posse 5 staged their long guns flat, per the posse marshal (me) emphasizing it at the stage briefing as explained (repeatedly) by the match director, at the stages involving down range movement, during the nearly two hour walk through! Also the penalty was explained as a procedural for “not following stage instructions”, which I have as a note to self in my book. I acknowledge that I am hard of hearing, thus when specific questions regarding situations such as these are asked I make sure I listen carefully and understand the explanation then make notes in my stage book. Pretty sure this was discussed more than just a moment before moving on to the next question. Not really that hard to get everyone the same information. 
Regards

    
Gateway Kid

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

Put down the torches, hanging rope and tar & feathers, but here goes:

This is the original reason for the dreaded Berm Marshal. Every posse gets the same instructions.

If you've never done a 2hr walk thru with 36 PLs, 6 CROs, a couple MDs and a bunch of assistants I'll let you in on a secret: it's like herding cats. 

Even after a grueling Walk Thru there will always be some "can I" question come up or action taken that's not questioned by the TO during the match, so even printing last minute instructions will never completely eliminate the problem.

Until a way to get approx 120 TOs, 36 PMs and 36 APMs that are all completely up to date on the rules and of equal competence is found there will be occurrences such as this.

It's unfortunate, but true, and CAN affect the outcome.

[Cypress Sun]

 

I wasn't there, but it seems to me that if you don't want firearms staged or restaged on or beyond a certain boundary, simply print (in large block letters) "NO FIREARMS" on the boundary which in this case is a 2 x 4. Judging from the picture, it could have been plainly printed on the 3.5" AND 1.5" surface. Any violation would be obvious to the TO, PM, spotters, etc., and we wouldn't be reading this thread. 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

P.  It could be done

 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I do feel the angle was too drastic.  My only complaint on the match

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

For those who constantly whine about a "Level Playing Field."  There has never been a "level playing field" in the CAS game and there never will be.  Way too many variables.  Run What Ya Brung and quit whining.

 

PLUS ONE for Culpepper you betcha.

[Eyesa Horg]

Shouldn't staging be corrected before the beep? The TO would know if a long gun was across the 2x4! Like vertical staging, should have been corrected before the stage is shot. For the record, I dislike vertical staging! Always worried it's gonna fall! But that's another endless thread!

[Fast Enuff]

The posse marshal meeting was long and exceptionally good and thorough.   There was very clear instruction not to stage guns over the red boards.  This was one of a couple of issues that were front and center at the meeting and very specifically addressed.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

2 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

I do feel the angle was too drastic.  My only complaint on the match

Agree CC.

Another note: In walk-thru a question was raised as to angle of "red block" as it was in WB, so said board was extended outward AFTER walk-thru.  No objection to the move, although I felt unnecessary.  When observing at shoot time I felt the new position of board created less space for staging.  Perhaps extension was more satisfying to some but I did feel it created more puzzleing for the comfort in staging, yet very doable. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

If I may...

I was not there; but I do know a thing or two about writing matches and handling posse walk throughs.

 

Two points:

IF a change/ clarification is required to the shooters book; this information is (should be) provided to the posse marshals via a written list (I never expected my posse marshals to take notes).  The posse marshal should be referring to this list every stage and ensuring information is covered (sounds like most did their job well and those who did not should be quietly noted so they are not placed into this position again - that's the best you can do after the fact). 

A simple sign or even colored paper posted at a stage is helpful to jog the posse marshal that a change is present and to refer to their notes.  A like note can be placed in the scorebook at that stages scoresheet for further reminder.

 

2nd point:

"Sometimes" we worry about and attempt to fix things that dont require fixing.

The angled placement was (my understanding) required for a downrange movement to ensure muzzles were pointed into the berm.

So why worry about or create an instructional issue with initial staging as that is immaterial to the reason the angle exists?

 

Allow the shooters full latitude on issues that don't matter and focus on the issues that do - as long as the firearm is "restaged" in a safe for down range movement position; that's all you have to focus on and it avoids scrutiny and hurt feelings.

AND allows shooters to feel like they have another opportunity to set themselves up for their best performance.

 

Edited March 4 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Follow what the Posse Marshall says and the written stage instructions. 

[Wild lead]

I believe the stage was fine. it was a little tight But very doable.

The entire match from stages to targets was excellent

[West Okie Wayne]

It was tight but there was enough room. Posse 2 shot it correctly. 

 

[SHOOTIN FOX]

START: At POS 1L or POS 1R, At the Ready. Rifle loaded with 10 rounds and Open, empty shotgun staged anywhere safely. Two revolvers loaded with 5 rds each, holstered. Stage may be engaged Left-to-Down Range or Right-to-Down Range.
Shooter may indicate ready by saying "WHO BLABBED THE GOLD WAS HERE"
ON SIGNAL:
At POS 1L/1R, with Rifle, engage the “R” targets with two 5 round Nevada Sweeps, starting on either end of the array. Make Rifle Safe flat on the platform pointing into the side berm or re-staged vertical.
At POS 1L/1R with Shotgun, engage two “S” targets in front. Move to POS 3 with the Shotgun and engage two “S” targets in front. Make Shotgun safe on the box at POS 3.
At POS 3 with revolvers, engage the “P” targets with two 5 round Nevada Sweeps, starting on either end of t

[Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme]

On 3/3/2024 at 10:36 PM, Dusty Devil Dale said:

"Level playing field" is good sounding rhetoric, but in the real world of CAS, there are a lot of variables that can affect stage times.  Spotting/counting is a big one.  PM direction clarity can be another.  Prop or target position v. shooter height, or even weather and light condition variation through a day can be enough to affect final standing.   Nothing is ever truly "level" across 600+ individuals and 12 stages. 

 

We play this game as it is, with all of its inherent weaknesses and variations. We all do our best to minimize inequity where we can see or anticipate it. But at times, mistakes are going to be made. 

Stuff happens. 

A part of playing is accepting some inherent inequity.  Every sport has it. 

Well said, Pard.

[Dred Bob]

Our Posse was specifically told that the shotgun could be hung over the board on start.  There were a couple of stages setup this way because the 2nd position was on a table forward of the offside starting positions and this ensured that no firearm was left positioned pointing downrange potentially at the next position.  The emphasis was that after moving from the position no firearm was touching the red board (pointing downrange).  We had one shooter leave his rifle on the board and he was given a stage/safety violation for leaving it there after shooting the position.    This is my first year with SASS and my first experience with a non-local event but from a safety consideration it did seem reasonable that you could start with the empty open shotgun draped over the board but not advance with any guns violating the plane/berm/board requirement.  It didn't sound like the PM was making his own interpretation for our benefit and claimed it was called out that way on the walkthrough.  

[Lucky Lead Pepper]

6 hours ago, Dred Bob said:

Our Posse was specifically told that the shotgun could be hung over the board on start. 

 

Interesting...

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

7 hours ago, Dred Bob said:

Our Posse was specifically told that the shotgun could be hung over the board on start.  There were a couple of stages setup this way because the 2nd position was on a table forward of the offside starting positions and this ensured that no firearm was left positioned pointing downrange potentially at the next position.  The emphasis was that after moving from the position no firearm was touching the red board (pointing downrange).  We had one shooter leave his rifle on the board and he was given a stage/safety violation for leaving it there after shooting the position.    This is my first year with SASS and my first experience with a non-local event but from a safety consideration it did seem reasonable that you could start with the empty open shotgun draped over the board but not advance with any guns violating the plane/berm/board requirement.  It didn't sound like the PM was making his own interpretation for our benefit and claimed it was called out that way on the walkthrough.  

Honestly, although my posse was instructed by myself and Deputy, Half-a-hand Henri, to stage long guns flat and not leaning on red board, I do believe the intent (oops there's that word) was for the starting long gun (rifle) to be flat.  Shotgun staged safely could have been interpreted as across board as it was not the starting long gun.  For stage six there was caution given to our shooters as to angle of shogun if staged on position two's short table.

[Tennessee williams]

    I wasn't there this year or last(did I hear someone say, yay) but for what it's worth:

Conventions say long guns staged on a table will be staged FLAT on the table. It's true that SPECIFIC stage instructions stating otherwise can over rule that convention;however, "staged anywhere safely" is not a specific instruction that would override that convention. That phrase is used quite often when the stagewriter wants to convey that the shooters can stage a particular firearm at any one of several possible locations. In order to override that convention, the instructions would have to be specific to that convention. I.E. "Shooter may stage the long gun on the 2x4, or long gun may be propped up on rail, or something SPECIFIC like that. Otherwise the shooter would be able to stage the long gun flat but really far back on the table, or have the rifle kick-standing up on a saddle ring. To disallow ALL of that, they would ALL have to be addressed in the instruction. That'd be lunacy.

  Bottom line to me with THIS situation is the stagewriters, match officials, prop and stage builders only have so much they can be responsible for. They can't ultimately hold each Posse Marshals hand. If they could do that, they wouldn't need them in the first place. The officials can give direction and make a reasonable attempt to make sure all parties understand what's conveyed to them. They can take note of what problems they have with a Posse Marshal, or prop, etc to make whatever change is necessary to keep it from happening again. This is a good group putting this match on and they have shown they're not afraid to make changes to put on a better match. I have confidence they'll continue to do so.

   

   

[Texas Jack Black]

Maybe the posse marshal  that ran this stage and gave these instructions should chime in and let us know the specifics and why he made this decision on his own. Or was told to change a  convention rule.

 

 Best Wishes

       

[Shooting Bull]

9 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

    I wasn't there this year or last(did I hear someone say, yay) but for what it's worth:

Conventions say long guns staged on a table will be staged FLAT on the table. It's true that SPECIFIC stage instructions stating otherwise can over rule that convention;however, "staged anywhere safely" is not a specific instruction that would override that convention. That phrase is used quite often when the stagewriter wants to convey that the shooters can stage a particular firearm at any one of several possible locations. In order to override that convention, the instructions would have to be specific to that convention. I.E. "Shooter may stage the long gun on the 2x4, or long gun may be propped up on rail, or something SPECIFIC like that. Otherwise the shooter would be able to stage the long gun flat but really far back on the table, or have the rifle kick-standing up on a saddle ring. To disallow ALL of that, they would ALL have to be addressed in the instruction. That'd be lunacy.

  Bottom line to me with THIS situation is the stagewriters, match officials, prop and stage builders only have so much they can be responsible for. They can't ultimately hold each Posse Marshals hand. If they could do that, they wouldn't need them in the first place. The officials can give direction and make a reasonable attempt to make sure all parties understand what's conveyed to them. They can take note of what problems they have with a Posse Marshal, or prop, etc to make whatever change is necessary to keep it from happening again. This is a good group putting this match on and they have shown they're not afraid to make changes to put on a better match. I have confidence they'll continue to do so.

   

   

 

You're adding words to the handbook that aren't there.  STAGE CONVENTIONS The following stage conventions (stage defaults) should be followed in all SASS matches, unless otherwise directed in the stage descriptions. 

 

[Tennessee williams]

22 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

You're adding words to the handbook that aren't there.  STAGE CONVENTIONS The following stage conventions (stage defaults) should be followed in all SASS matches, unless otherwise directed in the stage descriptions. 

 

It HAS to be specific to that particular convention for reasons I specified above. If it's doesn't directly override a SPECIFIC convention, can we just choose which one we want it to override? No

[Shooting Bull]

2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

It HAS to be specific to that particular convention for reasons I specified above. If it's doesn't directly override a SPECIFIC convention, can we just choose which one we want it to override? No

 

We're losing sight of the original issue.  Instructions said "Open, empty shotgun staged anywhere safely."  Stage conventions say safe staging of long guns is flat. They did not override the stage conventions.  In my ever so humble opinion this should never have been an issue.  Stage conventions say flat.  Even without posse marshal instructions this SHOULD have been understood. 

[Tennessee williams]

27 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

We're losing sight of the original issue. They did not override the stage conventions.  In my ever so humble opinion this should never have been an issue.  Stage conventions say flat.  Even without posse marshal instructions this SHOULD have been understood. 

The above is what I was saying. You just trying to be contrary to me?

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

36 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

We're losing sight of the original issue.  Instructions said "Open, empty shotgun staged anywhere safely."  Stage conventions say safe staging of long guns is flat. They did not override the stage conventions.  In my ever so humble opinion this should never have been an issue.  Stage conventions say flat.  Even without posse marshal instructions this SHOULD have been understood. 

Have to disagree with you, my friend.

The stage conventions exist to provide direction in the ABSENCE of a given instruction.

 

The moment an instruction is given that offers ANY specified or POSSIBLE deviation from the stage conventions - the convention is then over ridden and the written stage instruction or allowance takes precedence in that instance.

 

Example - shotgun begins staged on left table; there is no specified or possible deviation from the stage convention - so lying flat is the default.

 

BUT - staged ANYWHERE safely offers that deviation from the stage convention.  This opens up the possibility for vertical staging, staging on a fence post or hanging over a horse rail or two by four.

 

If you allow me to borrow your car and upon return - I know standard practice is your car is parked backed into your garage - and you don't say anything differently; I know that is where I am expected to place it.  (that is stage convention).

 

If I borrow your car and YOU specifically add the caveat "Park it anywhere safely" - I no longer am expected to back it into your garage (I may still do so - but am no longer required to).  By inserting an instruction that POTENTIALLY or specifically deviates from the norm - you have released me from adhering to the norm.  (that is a stage specific over riding instruction or allowance).

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Frankly, I think the “staged safely” language is superfluous anyway because there are already penalties specified for doing otherwise.  And in this case only causes conflicting interpretations.

 

I’d really like to hear PWB’s take on this.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

We're losing sight of the original issue.  Instructions said "Open, empty shotgun staged anywhere safely."  Stage conventions say safe staging of long guns is flat. They did not override the stage conventions.  In my ever so humble opinion this should never have been an issue.  Stage conventions say flat.  Even without posse marshal instructions this SHOULD have been understood. 

SB,

Are you referring to EOT Stage Conventions per Posse Marshall sheets?  I find the long gun flat on table mentioned in #22 but IMO it is referring to when starting with long gun or revolvers.   However in Stage 6 and 11 because of board it was specified in walk thru that rifle was flat and not on board.  Interpretation of shotgun safely seemed to have "drifted" on Stage six.

[Shooting Bull]

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

The above is what I was saying. You just trying to be contrary to me?

 

Yeah?  So?  What's your point?  Would you expect anything else?