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Constitutional Carry question


Widder, SASS #59054

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If a state has the 'Constitutional Carry' law, can businesses, such as shopping malls, restrict and prohibit 

your carrying?

 

If they do, are they denying your Constitutional rights?

 

..........Widder

 

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I am not a lawyer, and it's been a long time since I stayed in any hotel including Holiday Inn...

 

As I understand it, "Constitutional Carry" simply removes the requirement for a permit.  All other restrictions may apply.

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

If a state has the 'Constitutional Carry' law, can businesses, such as shopping malls, restrict and prohibit 

your carrying?

 

If they do, are they denying your Constitutional rights?

 

..........Widder

 

 

 Yes they can

 

And no they are not restricting your Constitutional rights.   

 

Depending on the state Constitutional Carry may NOT apply to certain government sites or quasi-governmental sites, like the airport.

 

 

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Constitutional carry in my home state.

 

Still have the typical no gun places like court rooms, hospitals etc.  If a location has armed guards, metal detectors, etc., they can enforce the no gun rules and are considered adequate to protect the public.  Our court now has gun lockers in the lobby for the public prior to enter past the metal detectors and armed guards, a reasonable accommodation.  

 

In general, though, the signs only mean that if a store owner sees the gun, they can ask you to leave.  If you refuse, it is considered trespass.  Not a gun violation.

 

It depends on the exact state laws.

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10 minutes ago, Pb Mark said:

 

 

In general, though, the signs only mean that if a store owner sees the gun, they can ask you to leave.  If you refuse, it is considered trespass.  Not a gun violation.

 

It depends on the exact state laws.

^^^^This^^^^

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The best information about exact gun carry laws can usually be found on your state attorney general's website.  Typically, they have a dedicated section specific to the gun carry laws.

 

For those people who do not read, bet those gun signs seem pretty discriminatory.   The look like they say " No Beretta 92's allowed" do they not?

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If I throw you out of my house because you say something or use language I don't like I'm not violating your 1st Amendment civil rights, likewise a business isn't violating your 2nd Amendment civil rights by banning carry within its walls.  

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A personal comment concerning state reciprocity and concealed carry laws.   If traveling to another state, better check their laws too because some things are different such as restaurants, bars, etc.

 

Had a good thing happen to me once concerning gun laws.  We had CCH permits and I had one.  Tennesse had CCH permits too but our two states did not have reciprocity for the permits.  I needed to travel to Nashville for temp work at an industrial factory area.  Wanted to take my pistol too.  Wrote a note to Tennessee Attorney General Office asking for permission to conceal carry in Tennessee.  Within an hour, the proper office at the Tennessee Attorney General office sent me back a letter giving me permission.  Told me to carry the letter with me, bring my gun and welcome to Tennessee!  

 

Many states like California are different thinkers about things like this.  

Edited by Pb Mark
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26 minutes ago, Pb Mark said:

A personal comment concerning state reciprocity and concealed carry laws.   If traveling to another state, better check their laws too because some things are different such as restaurants, bars, etc.

 

Had a good thing happen to me once concerning gun laws.  We had CCH permits and I had one.  Tennesse had CCH permits too but our two states did not have reciprocity for the permits.  I needed to travel to Nashville for temp work at an industrial factory area.  Wanted to take my pistol too.  Wrote a note to Tennessee Attorney General Office asking for permission to conceal carry in Tennessee.  Within an hour, the proper office at the Tennessee Attorney General office sent me back a letter giving me permission.  Told me to carry the letter with me, bring my gun and welcome to Tennessee!  

 

Many states like California are different thinkers about things like this.  

California doesn't THINK about anything.  It's one colossal leftist knee jerk.

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The Constitution is supposed to prevent the Federal Government and by extension the States from infringing on the individuals rights.

 

It does nothing about private entities. When attending a private venue the owners can restrict whatever they want until suit is brought and a court rules on it.

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

If I throw you out of my house because you say something or use language I don't like I'm not violating your 1st Amendment civil rights, likewise a business isn't violating your 2nd Amendment civil rights by banning carry within its walls.  

 

 

That's my feelings. 

It's their property. 

They have rights also.

If they don't want me to carry on their property. 

Then I won't.

 

But I can also spend my money someplace else. 

 

In Texas. If they don't have a 30.07 -30.08 legal sign. Then it is just a suggestion. 

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I am not an expert on Kansas up to date gun carry laws since I no longer teach CCH classes, but this once was fact:

 

It was a violation of the law for anyone to enter a private establishment that properly posted the no-gun signs.  That is a fact.

At that time, it was also against the law for armed police, fire or EMS to enter your home to help you if a homeowner posted a proper no-gun sign on their home.  That too is a fact.  

 

Nowadays, the signs mean little if your business does not provide adequate security.  Concealed is concealed.  Sounds pretty reasonable to me.  

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@Widder, SASS #59054 private property owners can restrict the carrying of guns. Here’s the kicker though. Check state laws on this. In Oregon I can put a sign up restricting the carrying of guns in my business, but if I do not reference the law or ordinance that says I can restrict the carrying of guns on that sign the sign is invalid in the eyes of the law. 
Bottom line, check the state laws in this regard. Might save you some headaches. 

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16 minutes ago, Pat Riot said:

@Widder, SASS #59054 private property owners can restrict the carrying of guns. Here’s the kicker though. Check state laws on this. In Oregon I can put a sign up restricting the carrying of guns in my business, but if I do not reference the law or ordinance that says I can restrict the carrying of guns on that sign the sign is invalid in the eyes of the law. 
Bottom line, check the state laws in this regard. Might save you some headaches. 

Widder is a different case though and only needs to check the state cellphone laws.  All he needs is a couple of his shooting videos on a cellphone.  About to get mugged.... just show them a good little shooting video and laugh at them.  Bet they run.  

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1 hour ago, Anvil Al #59168 said:

 

 

That's my feelings. 

It's their property. 

They have rights also.

If they don't want me to carry on their property. 

Then I won't.

 

But I can also spend my money someplace else. 

 

In Texas. If they don't have a 30.07 -30.08 legal sign. Then it is just a suggestion. 

sorry but it is 30.06 concealed carry, 30.07 open carry and 51% they sell more than 50% liquor. Those 3 signs control how we can carry or not into a business. These signs need to be viewable when entering the door.

 

TM

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5 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

If a state has the 'Constitutional Carry' law, can businesses, such as shopping malls, restrict and prohibit 

your carrying?

 

If they do, are they denying your Constitutional rights?

 

..........Widder

 

Yes the can.

It's considered private property. 

The Battlefield Mall here is SGF has such a policy. 

We shop elsewhere.....

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6 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

If a state has the 'Constitutional Carry' law, can businesses, such as shopping malls, restrict and prohibit 

your carrying?

 

If they do, are they denying your Constitutional rights?

 

..........Widder

 

Yes they can and they do, at least here in Ohio.

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They can.

My estate has instructions to sue any such establishment that I am  injured in for not adequately protecting me.

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51 minutes ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

They can.

My estate has instructions to sue any such establishment that I am  injured in for not adequately protecting me.

Good luck with that.

Private property that you willingly and freely interact with has no obligation to protect you from occurances outside their direct control.

 

A rack that falls on you? 

Yes, that is under their direct control.

 

A spill that caused a slip and fall?

Yes, that is under their direct control.

 

A crazy person that enters an "Open to public invitation" facility and does harm is beyond their scope of control.

---------------------------------------------

And for all the folks stating that signs are just "suggestions" or bypassing a sign is just grounds to be asked to leave - this may be accurate in some very specific jurisdictions; but generally these signs are afforded the same weight as those on "public property".

 

The definition of a Wal-Mart, a Gas Station, a Burger King or ANY privately owned facility that is not membership driven and opens their doors to the public without restraint is defined as "Private Property open to Public invitation".

 

Because of the "Public Invitation"; meaning the free and open invite to enter the property - these properties are often afforded the same legal protections as "Public Property" with regard to "Non entry" or "Restricted entry" signage standards.

 

Meaning, if you would obey a "No firearms" sign at your local courthouse; then it would be wise to do so at your local mall, barbershop or steakhouse as the penalties for ignoring it are likely the same.

Especially in light of your interaction at that establishment is 100% voluntary and easily avoided by you.

 

A private property without any signage can of course ask you to leave in the course of your interaction based on private property rights - but they can only ask you to leave and then upon refusal, escalate to trespassing you, as without signage - you are not breaking any firearms laws.

And yes, private property can selectively discriminate about whom they ask to leave.

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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Was at an Outback restaurant several years ago. We had just come off the range after a Saturday match and there were eight or ten of us, hungry and thirsty and looking for grub.

 

When I saw the sign prohibiting firearms, I asked the person at the door if they were providing security and protection for me and my party.  They went a got the manager who seemed put out when I repeated my query!!

 

I explained that we were interested in dining, but that unless Outback was providing active security that we weren’t willing to be without our own sidearms and would take our business elsewhere.

 

His retort was something to the effect of what we were scared of, to which several of us replied, almost in unison, “Not a damned thing!”

 

I later sent a letter to the Outback Corporate Office, complaining of their no firearms policy and describing our experience.

 

No one ever responded. I never thought that they would.

 

Our bunch spent some pretty good money at a Texas Roadhouse down the road a ways.

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These gun laws vary by state.  Many comments above are generalizations that may or may not be applicable to your state laws.  

 

And no, you cannot throw a law-abiding shopper out of your public store without a lawful. provable reason.  You can be sued in civil court and will probably lose. This applies to ALL states.  It's called unlawful discrimination.  Use the police to help you and their city or county can be successfully sued too.

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Ohio entities can post a property as a Designated Victim Zone

(attention criminals, all within are legally disarmed for your convenience, enjoy!)

by simply scrawling it on a napkin with a Sharpie. 

There's no legally prescribed format for a no-carry-zone sign.

I'm not even sure if the law requires it has to be "in plain view" or "plainly visible."
I've seen no-carry notices on glass doors, looked like a white-plastic applique well above eye level, low contrast, hard to see.

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2 hours ago, Pb Mark said:

These gun laws vary by state.  Many comments above are generalizations that may or may not be applicable to your state laws.  

 

And no, you cannot throw a law-abiding shopper out of your public store without a lawful. provable reason.  You can be sued in civil court and will probably lose. This applies to ALL states.  It's called unlawful discrimination.  Use the police to help you and their city or county can be successfully sued too.

You are incorrect.

There is no such thing as a privately owned "Public Store" - the private property owning shop operator may refuse service based upon a wide variety of subjective reasons.

 

Shoppers can be removed for attitude, offensive or provocative language, apparel (designs or language upon it or appropriateness), drunkeness or impairment.

 

Overt or implied threats of violence are also grounds for removal.  Including overt or implied attempts at intimidation.

 

There are actually very few situations where a private property owner does not have the right to selectively discriminate; housing, food or medical attention come immediately to mind.

 

And yes; 

an individual CAN sue for any frivolous reason - that does not mean they will be successful.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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2 hours ago, Pb Mark said:

 

And no, you cannot throw a law-abiding shopper out of your public store without a lawful. provable reason.  You can be sued in civil court and will probably lose. This applies to ALL states.  It's called unlawful discrimination.  Use the police to help you and their city or county can be successfully sued too.

 Privately owned properties which are places of public accomodation, such as restaurants and stores, are subject to civil rights laws and cannot refuse service to people based upon race, religion, national origin, and a couple of other categories.

 

But those laws have no application to a host of other things, including carrying guns.

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4 hours ago, Texas Maverick said:

sorry but it is 30.06 concealed carry, 30.07 open carry and 51% they sell more than 50% liquor. Those 3 signs control how we can carry or not into a business. These signs need to be viewable when entering the door.

 

TM

 

 

You are right. Not sure why I put .08 .07. 

 

I never worry about the 51% signs as I never go into those places.

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44 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

You are incorrect.

There is no such thing as a privately owned "Public Store" - the private property owning shop operator may refuse service based upon a wide variety of subjective reasons.

 

Shoppers can be removed for attitude, offensive or provocative language, apparel (designs or language upon it or appropriateness), drunkeness or impairment.

 

Overt or implied threats of violence are also grounds for removal.  Including overt or implied attempts at intimidation.

 

There are actually very few situations where a private property owner does not have the right to selectively discriminate; housing, food or medical attention come immediately to mind.

 

And yes; 

an individual CAN sue for any frivolous reason - that does not mean they will be successful.

Better wording on my part would have been private owner of a store open to the public.  I'll try to do better next time.  Disturbing the peace fits your removal definitions.  That is illegal behavior as I stated, and yes, grounds for removal. 

 

Selective discrimination is what you just said you felt was acceptable though....   I need to say no more.

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While I generally frown upon people asking for legal advice on a public forum, I wonder if the answer to these questions would be the same if they posted a "no (insert racial slur here) or "no idiots," etc.  I think one day we will see a time when a no guns sign is about as socially acceptable.  It's probably 50 years away or more, sadly, but our country does become more and more gun friendly every day, even if it doesn't seem like it because it happens so slowly.

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26 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

While I generally frown upon people asking for legal advice on a public forum, I wonder if the answer to these questions would be the same if they posted a "no (insert racial slur here) or "no idiots," etc.  I think one day we will see a time when a no guns sign is about as socially acceptable. 

I don't know about that. While it would be difficult to change one's skin color, it's far too easy to untuck a shirt or stow your gun in your vehicle while shopping there. I see much less incentive for change if the store owner doesn't see any change in his clientele. If he doesn't know that he's losing money, or more particularly if he's NOT because it's too easy to comply, he'll have no reason to change.

When my wife got a "Costco" card, I decided to see if they had changed their anti gun ways. Nope. I barely got in the door when I was told I couldn't enter while carrying. I told them that if I couldn't bring my gun in, I wouldn't be bringing my money in.

Edited by Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770
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We really have no problems in my state with the concealed carry or constitutional carry laws.  If you are 21 or over, legal to own a gun, feel free to come to Kansas and enjoy your right to protect yourself, your family or a third party from crime.  Only use a gun if necessary.  No need to retreat.  You do not need to be a resident here to exercise this freedom.

 

It did not start out easy though.  A district court judge / NRA board member / friend of mine did much of the leg work.  Concealed carry vetoed twice by the governor.  Once passed media speaking of blood to spill in the streets like Dodge City in the old days, etc.  Activists started sneaking up on people in stores occasionally to pat them down for those dangerous guns and call them on it.  A few were legally decked due to the assault, and this slowed down.  People began to accept it and most took down their no gun signs.  Law was changed to make carry in a posted store not a gun crime, just simple trespass if customer refused to leave.  Constitutional carry was passed. 

 

Personally, only know of one location I go with no gun signs posted.  It is a shopping mall owned by an out of state corporation.  Mostly empty and run down.  The owner refuses to pay the electric bill and utilities get shut off sometimes.  It makes the news.  My optometrist is in this location until next June when they finish with their lease.  I ignore those signs to see the optometrist.  Guns are stolen from cars often here.  The local indoor range where I shoot holds free giveaways for little gun safes for cars often in conjunction with the police department.  Police are good here and supported by the community in general.  

 

People 18 and up now can carry exposed.  I believe they need a permit to carry concealed.  This is a new law change that I am not totally up on though.  There may be acceptations, it may not be fully written law yet, not sure.  They may now be permitted the same constitutional carry rules as 21 and over.  Have not looked into the details.  

Edited by Pb Mark
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Disney World is an example in Florida. 
 

They ban, and enthusiastically enforce, gun bans on WDW property. 
 

If you carry one in in an otherwise legal manner (legally-concealed, for example) they will ‘trespass’ you — kick you off the property with permanent a ban from any future entry. But you won’t be prosecuted.
 

 But if you go back again and get caught, with or without a gun, it’s, ‘trespass after warning,’ which is a whole level of hurt past just being asked to leave. Forfeiture of anything associated with the trespass (e.g., your cat in the parking lot), fines, jail.

 

And from what I’ve heard, they don’t have a lenient policy regarding signing a complaint against someone that violates their ban. 

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2 minutes ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

Disney World is an example in Florida. 
 

They ban, and enthusiastically enforce, gun bans on WDW property. 
 

If you carry one in in an otherwise legal manner (legally-concealed, for example) they will ‘trespass’ you — kick you off the property with permanent a ban from any future entry. But you won’t be prosecuted.
 

 But if you go back again and get caught, with or without a gun, it’s, ‘trespass after warning,’ which is a whole level of hurt past just being asked to leave. Forfeiture of anything associated with the trespass (e.g., your cat in the parking lot), fines, jail.

 

And from what I’ve heard, they don’t have a lenient policy regarding signing a complaint against someone that violates their ban. 

 

Screw Disney, I'm glad DeSantis if finally doing something about the scam dictatorship that the Reedy Creek Improvement District has become. It'll be a cold day in hell before I go there or give a penny of my money to Disney.:angry:

 

I do have to ask though. Why would you take a cat to the mouse house and leave it in the parking lot?:rolleyes::P

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