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Tooooo many categories in sass??


Silver Creek Jack

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1 hour ago, July Smith said:

Holy smokes this whole thread was started to discuss reducing the number of categories.   

Um no, I started this to see what we're the reason some folks don't like multiple categories. I'm absolutely against reducing the number of categories. 

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1 hour ago, Whip Assalot said:

Because you end up shooting with less experienced shooters.

Because you can then shoot with less experienced shooters

 

You have obviously never shot a match with Missouri Lefty, Matt Black, or any of those other young guns!

 

I have shot with Lefty, probably since he was just starting out a scant few years ago. He beat me when he was twelve or thirteen years old and he has beaten the world at age sixteen! He just won the National Championship as a Gunfighter, something that has never been done before and he’s still not twenty-five!!

 

Shooting down in category or shooting in different categories doesn’t mean that you are just “choosing your category wisely” or trying to take advantage of less experienced shooters! It might just mean that you’re trying something different or that you’re exploring different guns or shooting styles!

 

The only categories that I haven’t tried are B Western, (I sold my rifle that fit the category before the category was created) Classic Cowboy, (don’t have some of the required gear) and the Junior/Buckaroo categories for obvious reasons.

 

In doing so, I’ve met and made friends that I might never have seen and tried guns that I might never have had a chance to otherwise!

 

I’m no longer in any shape to be competitive and I figure I will probably never be a threat to anyone for a buckle or plaque, but I aim to keep on shooting and to shoot in whatever category I feel like when I feel like it!

 

EDIT:  The age based categories were actually created to prevent YOUNGER, more agile, healthier shooters from taking advantage of us older, more stove up, decrepit shooters, IIRC!! :o :rolleyes::lol:

 

 

Edited by Blackwater 53393
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51 minutes ago, July Smith said:

Holy smokes this whole thread was started to discuss reducing the number of categories.   

yes.

IMO, reduce categories could easily led to reduced numbers.  Maybe that is a solution in the long run.  I know if Sassy and I did not go to EOT then that money could go to two closer annuals.  But then that would not change category situations unless certain annuals minimum was less than EOT and Land Run.  Either way we "pay to play"

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As a new shooter I think the categories should be totally redefined, but it will never happen. Trying to understand the categories was by far the most confusing thing about this sport for me and has caused some people that I have talked to either not or delay picking up the sport.

 

There should be categories for age categories, don't care how they are broken down.

ie) <16, >35, >49, >60, ...

 

There should be categories for costume categories, but no further breakdowns on ages, "SASS legal" guns, or "SASS legal" shooting styles. Restricting B-Western to guns after 1880 is just plain stupid.

ie) B-Western, Classic Cowboy, etc.

 

There should be categories for shooting style, but no further breakdowns.

ie) Duelist, Gunfighter, Cody-Dixon/Sharpshooter, etc.

 

There should be categories for shooting material, but no further breakdowns.

ie) +P (prob. .45 or higher), Blackpowder

 

 

Personally, I would only have men and ladies in the age categories, but I wouldn't be opposed to having it for all.

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1 hour ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said:

IS a hardship on clubs to offer that many awards/ buckles,   THAT'S WHY match fees have gone up so significantly.   You are basically paying to give YOURSELF an award,  Does that make everyone feel good to buy your own award??   This IS a competitive shooting sport.  

Everyone who gets an award paid for it. You may consider this a competitive shooting sport but many who participate do not. I play this game to have fun and test myself. I appreciate fast shooters who worked hard to get fast. I enjoy the social interactions and friends I have made. I would gladly shoot in a non buckle category for a discount on my entry fee. Then the competitive shooters could buy their own buckles.

Edited by Mister Badly
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1 hour ago, Itchy Trigger said:

There should be categories for shooting material, but no further breakdowns.

ie) +P (prob. .45 or higher), Blackpowder

Leave Frontiersman ALONE.  Cap n Ball has already suffered one multi-year deletion as an official SASS category.  It is enough of a challenge by itself... As I recall, no one has made the top 16 at EOT shooting Frontiersman... And yet, it is probably among the few categories with dedicated, died in the wool adherents.  Only thing more difficult is adding Gunfighter style to Frontiersman.

 

 

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How about only first place in category and overall match winners (male/female) at big matches gets a buckle and everyone else gets a certificate or 4H type ribbon?

Folks would get something to take home and would cut down on club expenses and maybe cut down on entry fees.

Just a thought.

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The reason for the age based categories is to protect the aging from the young and nimble shooters.  Around here, the Seniors and Elder Statesmen seem to dominate the top 10 at the monthly matches.  Who is being protected from who?

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1 hour ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

The reason for the age based categories is to protect the aging from the young and nimble shooters.  Around here, the Seniors and Elder Statesmen seem to dominate the top 10 at the monthly matches.  Who is being protected from who?


 

OLD AGE AND TREACHERY, my friend!  OLD AGE AND TREACHERY!!  :ph34r: :lol:

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Leave the category’s, just do away with the awards, Overall Top Shooter only! Award ceremony will be a lot shorter!

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3 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

How about only first place in category and overall match winners (male/female) at big matches gets a buckle and everyone else gets a certificate or 4H type ribbon?

Folks would get something to take home and would cut down on club expenses and maybe cut down on entry fees.

Just a thought.

That’s how it was at OWSA most of the years we shot with them!

They no longer exist. As SASS matches grew, they dwindled away.

The majority want more categories and awards. If someone wants to delude themselves that a participation award has meaning: let them!

Personally I have no interest in being 1st place in a category with 1 shooter!

More shooters at matches is A GOOD thing-for whatever reason!!

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I chose my category, Frontier Cartridge, based on what I thought this sport was all about, the old west.  I shoot 44-40 with the true black powder, GOEX fffg,  The 44-40 cartridge was one of the early cartridges and the first to be loaded in a cowboys revolvers and rifle.

 

As I am pushing 76 I have no allusions concerning my suddenly becoming any faster.  I also realize I will never be 25 again.  The Frontier Cartridge Category is open to any age, so come on and join in the fun.  (How long can you hold your breath?)  Just seeing the targets is a challenge sometimes, but that is also part of the fun.

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6 hours ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said:

 

It IS a hardship on clubs to offer that many awards/ buckles,   THAT'S WHY match fees have gone up so significantly.   You are basically paying to give YOURSELF an award,  Does that make everyone feel good to buy your own award??   This IS a competitive shooting sport.   

 

NOT EVERY ACTOR gets a Oscar, but that does not prevent them from acting and doing what they enjoy.   Can you imagine if every Olympic sport gave 10 podium medals??? 10 Superbowl rings of different quality and color, 10 teams win World Series rings????    It takes away from the value of the effort, time, practice, execution that those who do put the time in.  

 

YES AWARD CERMONIES TAKE TOO LONG.  Land Run was about 2 hours.

But Baseball, Football, and actors all makes their money on spectators (I'm not sure about the Olympics but they are probably funded by the hosting country and tourism). Which is much different than SASS. They make their money from their members. If you can't keep your members coming you will run out of money. Sports keep their members happy by paying them enough to be happy from the money they get by keeping the spectators happy. It's almost like apples and oranges to compare that to SASS. 

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3 hours ago, Griff said:

Leave Frontiersman ALONE.  Cap n Ball has already suffered one multi-year deletion as an official SASS category.  It is enough of a challenge by itself... As I recall, no one has made the top 16 at EOT shooting Frontiersman... And yet, it is probably among the few categories with dedicated, died in the wool adherents.  Only thing more difficult is adding Gunfighter style to Frontiersman.

 

 

What makes cap n ball harder than Frontier Cartridge? I'm genuinely naive and curious. I don't think I've shot with anyone shooting cap n ball yet that I recall. 

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10 minutes ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

What makes cap n ball harder than Frontier Cartridge? I'm genuinely naive and curious. I don't think I've shot with anyone shooting cap n ball yet that I recall. 

Caps, in & of themselves are a less than perfect ignition source.  Plus, they sometimes fall off.  They're designed to after firing, and that presents its own problems, with them splitting, folding*, falling into the action, jamming against the recoil shield.  Weather... it doesn't even need to be actual rain for the humidity to produce problems in fouled powder.  I shot EOT a couple years ago, (IN), and the last day was drenched.  I managed to keep my powder and pistols relatively dry, but my caps got wet.  On my last stage it took 25 caps to get 10 shots off.  But, hey!  it was a "clean match" for me, even it pushed me all the way back to 12th in my category!  Probably would've still only been 10th... but...  1st podium visit @ EOT in 30 years!  I don't think another Frontiersman had a clean match.  It is tough to deal with DIY ammo on the range.  Plus, and the real downside to me, is Frontiersman requires the Duelist style.  

 

* For example:  https://youtu.be/x8S2Ue0EBMA

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8 hours ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said:

And to the argument that the older guys cannot compete with younger shooters,   I CALL BS.   Look at the AZ state shoot in Bordertown.   TOP AZ state champion was Hell's Comin who is an Elder Statesman!!!!  (with two bad knees to top it off). , and 6 of the top 10 were over 60 years old.    So the age means nothing,  all the categories were added to just get people more awards and make them feel better and has diluted the value of winning an award and driven up match expenses.   Back in the day when you seen someone with a Buckle they won at a shoot, it was a big deal.  Now just about everyone can have a buckle.

I frankly think this position is delusional. 

 

To say age means nothing...puuuuulease! Using an outlier match to prove your position is pretty weak. And yes, it was an outlier. How's about you pick Land Run...or EOT? Tell me how competitive the older folks are. How many seconds are they getting the butt stomped by.

 

If you want to combine...fine! I'm semi-competitive...so what! The bulk of the attendees are not. You want them to just be the cash cow for SASS? 

 

You say that earning a buckle at a large match is essentially meaningless? Twenty years ago I went to matches that gave buckles to everyone (they saw it as a good way to promote their match). Now you're saying they are meaningless? Way to demean the efforts put forward by our members...why don't you show us your State, Regional, National and World Championship buckles...

 

Believe it or not, it just FUN for folks to bring home a buckle. It's a memory more than anything else. You think there's some monetary value???? There's not...

 

Phantom

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5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I frankly think this position is delusional. 

 

To say age means nothing...puuuuulease! Using an outlier match to prove your position is pretty weak. And yes, it was an outlier. How's about you pick Land Run...or EOT? Tell me how competitive the older folks are. How many seconds are they getting the butt stomped by.

 

If you want to combine...fine! I'm semi-competitive...so what! The bulk of the attendees are not. You want them to just be the cash cow for SASS? 

 

You say that earning a buckle at a large match is essentially meaningless? Twenty years ago I went to matches that gave buckles to everyone (they saw it as a good way to promote their match). Now you're saying they are meaningless? Way to demean the efforts put forward by our members...why don't you show us your State, Regional, National and World Championship buckles...

 

Believe it or not, it just FUN for folks to bring home a buckle. It's a memory more than anything else. You think there's some monetary value???? There's not...

 

Phantom

 

Evidently, some folks think they have monetary value...

 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p4432023.m570.l1313&_nkw=sass+belt+buckle&_sacat=0

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I've not seen it mentioned in a long time, but I can remember when a lot of people used to say there should be a Baptist Category.  Of course, there was no agreement as to what the requirements were.

I used to say the only one I could think of was "must use a Schofield."  Which is ironic, cuz Scofield was a Congregationalist.

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21 hours ago, Cemetery said:

many single entry category entrants are getting rolled into other categories. Like a FCD getting rolled into the regular Duelist category if they're the only one. 

The FC (GF, D) categories get rolled into FC (2 handed) and then to its smokeless equivalent in matches that I’ve been a part of. There were a LOT of age break out categories at Land Run.  I do not shoot an age based category. I shoot FCGF (Lady, if available). I’d rather shoot the Open category FCGF with Cowboys than shoot LGF and shoot smoke against ladies shooting smokeless. I’ve shot with the ‘boys a couple of times and it’s been fine and fun. The FCGF are a cool bunch!
 

There probably are too many categories. However, enforcing minimum - 5 for ladies and 7? 10? for men I think is a help. We LFCGF had to work for a category at Land Run and made it (one lady had to withdraw due to surgery).  I don’t know the solution. 
 

Hugs!

 

Scarlett

 


 

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6 hours ago, Griff said:

And yet, it is probably among the few categories with dedicated, dyed in the wool adherents.  Only thing more difficult is adding Gunfighter style to Frontiersman.

The Frontiersmen you speak of ARE dedicated!! They are also some of the MOST FUN folks with whom to shoot! One of these days - maybe when I start collecting SS - I might start shooting Frontiersmen!! 
 

Hugs! 
 

Scarlett

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1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

Those Hell On Wheels buckles are very nice, I’ve always wanted to shoot the match. I wonder if I can convince folks that I was there by showing them a buckle?:D

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6 hours ago, Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728 said:

How about only first place in category and overall match winners (male/female) at big matches gets a buckle and everyone else gets a certificate or 4H type ribbon?

Folks would get something to take home and would cut down on club expenses and maybe cut down on entry fees.

Just a thought.

That might work for monthlies or annuals.

 

I’ll be very honest. I want to win my category at EOT or Land Run and get a nice fancy buckle. It took me 4 years to do it at EOT. I was second each year. I have shot a lot of matches all over the country. I have a lot of buckles. I have a few VERY NICE BEAUTIFUL buckles. I shot B-Western (2012-2015), Lady Gunfighter (2015-2020 and Lady Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter (2020-present).  Not the most populated categories. I was shooting with a local friend somewhere in the last couple of years - she shot Lady Wrangler. She won. She remarked it was her First Buckle. WHAT? Yep. It was her first buckle. She’s been shooting longer than I. That was an eye opener for me.
 

I think we assume “everyone has a buckle” when it is simply not true. 
 

Hugs!

 

Scarlett
 

 

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15 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Those Hell On Wheels buckles are very nice, I’ve always wanted to shoot the match. I wonder if I can convince folks that I was there by showing them a buckle?:D

I'm sure I have some of Those Hell On Wheels buckles I'd be willing to give you.

They gave everyone a buckle in the shooter pack. I started leaving mine on the table when I opened my envelope.

Figured I had enough stuff laying around.

 

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24 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Those Hell On Wheels buckles are very nice, I’ve always wanted to shoot the match. I wonder if I can convince folks that I was there by showing them a buckle?:D

On second thought most folks know how I shoot and would know it was a lie right away.:P

Edited by Yul Lose
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3 hours ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

What makes cap n ball harder than Frontier Cartridge? I'm genuinely naive and curious. I don't think I've shot with anyone shooting cap n ball yet that I recall. 

Griff pointed out that cap 'n ball revolvers have ignition problems in damp weather.  They also need heavier hammer springs than our race-tuned cartridge revolvers.  Team with someone in a Plainsman side match and experience the challenge of these mid-19th century firearms.

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29 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Griff pointed out that cap 'n ball revolvers have ignition problems in damp weather.  They also need heavier hammer springs than our race-tuned cartridge revolvers.  Team with someone in a Plainsman side match and experience the challenge of these mid-19th century firearms.


Add to all of that, you have to build your ammunition IN THE GUN between stages, or partially disassemble the gun, if you have extra cylinders that you can charge at home.  Then you have to cap those cylinders at the loading table, requiring the use of a capper or putting loose caps on with your fingers and then you’ll need to use some sort of tool to make sure that those caps are properly seated!

 

Some Frontiersmen also apply a grease over their charged chambers, another step in the process, thus requiring more cleaning and maintenance between stages.

 

This doesn’t take into account the required steps to accomplish a required reload if one is called for in the scenario!!

 

That’s why you’ll see and hear so many Frontiersmen shouting “Leave Frontiersman Alone!”

 

And I will add that at NO TIME should Frontiersman EVER  be rolled up, down, or sideways into another category!!

 

 

Edited by Blackwater 53393
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My goal early on, in SASS was to PLACE top ten in ten different categories at End Of Trail / SASS World Championship, i pulled it off, with only one aged based categorie placing in "49er", soon after 49er age category was introduced.

As a past match director, at the current level of categories, that many awards vs shooters can be spendy in some cases.

 

 

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I'm a slow shooter and I shoot mostly stock guns in 44 caliber with full load BP ( Worthog loads )

I have pretty much zero chance of winning a ribbon or a Bingo chip with out choosing my category wisely. 

I'm always at the bottom 2 or 3 shooters of the day over all .

The biggest issue I see is too many cry babies . Instead of just going to shoot guns with like minded people & playing cowboy with friends. 

Enjoying the day of  activities & laughing and eating lunch talking crap on how You or Terry  shot this or that stage .

It's supposed to be about having fun !

Rooster 

 

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9 hours ago, Scarlett said:

The FC (GF, D) categories get rolled into FC (2 handed) and then to its smokeless equivalent in matches that I’ve been a part of. There were a LOT of age break out categories at Land Run.  I do not shoot an age based category. I shoot FCGF (Lady, if available). I’d rather shoot the Open category FCGF with Cowboys than shoot LGF and shoot smoke against ladies shooting smokeless. I’ve shot with the ‘boys a couple of times and it’s been fine and fun. The FCGF are a cool bunch!
 

There probably are too many categories. However, enforcing minimum - 5 for ladies and 7? 10? for men I think is a help. We LFCGF had to work for a category at Land Run and made it (one lady had to withdraw due to surgery).  I don’t know the solution. 
 

Hugs!

 

Scarlett

 


 

 

In the current Shooter's Handbook, where category discussions begin starting on page 5, Gunfighter is only allowed in Gunfighter/B-Western categories.

 

As a FCGF myself, I find this frustrating.  Recently happened to me, had to find a new category for a match, ended up doing Classic Cowboy.

 

My understanding, and I might be wrong, is that Duelists, Gunfighters for example are 'base' categories, would always be honored, and Classic Cowboy along with B-Western the same as well.  It would just be when there is not enough 'age based' participants, is when they would be rolled down.

 

Like what are we, as FCGF to do when you're under 60, and yet there's three other Silver Senior GF's signed up?

 

1) you won't be able to do FCGF, and 2) you can't even do GF because you're the only one under 65. 

 

So it leaves me with limited choices.  Don't shoot the match, move into another category (Classic Cowboy being the only interesting alternative, but again, has limited participants depending on where you go), or shoot FCGF and skip any award. 

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