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Trail boss powder


Big Gus, SASS# 66666

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6 hours ago, watab kid said:

.i get price driving , but really whats going on here ? 

 

Less shooting and hunting activity within the US means less interest in companies being started and run by shooters.  When companies are just run to make money, not the products that their owners invented, and then we suffer tough economic times, tough regulations, tough competition from overseas, those companies find other things to make money with than making sporting firearms and ammunition that really only has a big market in the US, not around the world.  So, the existing money chases the latest most attractive money-making opportunities.

 

Environmental and workplace health regulations that no company could meet shut off lead smelting in US.

Smokeless powder production is being consolidated under Hodgdons and Alliant because the other producers have been fleeing the "sporting arms" business (Hodgdon doesn't even produce any powder now, it contracts to the older plants to make powder for Hodgdon rather than sell it directly to the market)

Black powder suffers from both of the above - it's an ancient and dangerous production process, with no incentives to improve upon what the DuPonts ran  back in 1800.

 

Remember what happens to old production and old technologies?   Like the horse raising agri-industry of the early 1900s?  US produced millions of horses a year for domestic and war time transport before and during WW I.   Some of my relatives raised and helped ship thousands of those horses to France in 1917 and 18. By the end of the Depression (hard times for sure), the American commercial and personal transport industries all had switched to automobiles, and horse production fell to a small fraction of previous levels.  Horses became too expensive and labor intensive to be in demand for anything but recreation by the highest income part of the economy.   

 

Kinda makes me think the recreational shooting industry is beating a horse largely on it's last legs, unfortunately.   I sure don't hear that young chemists and robot designers today are working day and night to make a new way to produce Goex, or even Trail Boss.   But they are slaving hard to invent 20 new types of electronic money replacements (XXXCoin) every year to allow folks to chase attractive money making opportunities without government controls....

 

Big picture - the US is painfully shifting from a mining, farming and manufacturing economy to a management, financial and information economy.  If we can adapt to accepting goods produced by other economies and trade those for our finances and information prowess, well, we'll shoot Turkish firearms, Czech ammo and Chinese black powder while we jingle the BitCoins in our electronic wallets.    

 

But we'll have to wait for our (container) ships to come in.

 

:o:(  GJ

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1 hour ago, Boomstick Bruce said:

so i use TB for both 45colt and 45acp. would unique be ok for acp? im almost out of TB...

 

Start researching your reloading manuals. There are lots of powders that will work in both.

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All this TB talk and I’ve got pounds of it just sitting here.  When I went over to the Darkside I put it away and never looked back.  Maybe I should bring what I have to the next big shoot and try to sell it. 

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23 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

All this TB talk and I’ve got pounds of it just sitting here.  When I went over to the Darkside I put it away and never looked back.  Maybe I should bring what I have to the next big shoot and try to sell it. 

I'll give ya a dollar a jar Saturday.:o:D:ph34r:

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I purchased two 5lb jugs of TB about 4-5 years ago. Just finished the 1st jug and am beginning the 2nd. Probably have enough for another 4-5 years since the wife no longer shoots. Then I'll probably switch to Unique in the 38 spcl & 32-20 loads since I use it for the 20 ga.

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Ive never understood why folks like TB so much. The ONLY advantage it has is one cannot double-charge a case with it. It’s smelly, dirty, expensive. I use a lot if Bullseye, Unique & Red Dot. Old powders that just work! 
I do use 5744 in my heave 535 grn 45/70 Sharps loads. But also use Unique  with 45/70 with 405 or less Bullets. Also use unique with 45/60 & 38/55. It’s a good all-around powder. 

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12 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Ive never understood why folks like TB so much. The ONLY advantage it has is one cannot double-charge a case with it. It’s smelly, dirty, expensive. I use a lot if Bullseye, Unique & Red Dot. Old powders that just work! 
I do use 5744 in my heave 535 grn 45/70 Sharps loads. But also use Unique  with 45/70 with 405 or less Bullets. Also use unique with 45/60 & 38/55. It’s a good all-around powder. 

 

You can use it in just about everything from .32 S&W to .45-70, rifle or pistol.  It creates loads that are pleasant to shoot with very little recoil.  Almost none at all in heavier rifles.   It can also generate decent accuracy out to a few hundred yards.

All plusses in my book.  :)

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On 12/2/2021 at 7:13 PM, Kansas City Munny said:

I shoot .45 Colt and switched to Vihtavuori 32C (Tin Star?) and it works great. Not as dirty as TB, but using about a grain more per case.

27% increase in powder weight, based on 200 grain bullet and 5.5 gr minimum load of TB in 45 Colt. Without the case filling ability (cc per load) of Trailboss, Tin Star did not project to be a game changer or particularly comparable to me. I also don't want another leaky, ultrafine, Belgian powder, so there was that concern without actually seeing it.

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15 minutes ago, John Boy said:

Gus, you might want to consider changing your powder for reloading … 

 

$175.00 for 2 lbs … https://rockstoneammo.store/product/hodgdon-trail-boss-smokeless-gun-powder/

Roughly the same percentage increase as primers.

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Before China gifted the world with its virus, I had squirreled away enough powder and primers to last the rest of my shooting life.  So, I'm fortunate to still have  

Clays, Red Dot, Trail Boss, Shooter's World Clean Shot, Black Powder, APP, and if I get down to the dregs, I still have several pounds of Pinnacle, H777, and (ugh) Pyrodex.

 

I really like Shooters World Clean Shot.  I haven't looked at the store shelves lately to see what other powders are available locally.

 

Last week was the first time I shot Trail Boss in cold weather, mid-30's in the early morning... I found I was having some problems with it.  As if they had been loaded too light.  (But, I'm at a mid-level load, 4.0gr in a C45S and 160gr. and I'm anal about measuring powder).  I had never known it to be position sensitive before, so perhaps it was cold sensitive?  Whatever, the problems seemed to go away if I shook up the 100rd ammo box before loading my pistols.

 

The rifle rounds, which were another caliber and loaded with Red Dot, had no such problems.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, McCandless said:

I shot Trail Boss in cold weather, mid-30's in the early morning... I found I was having some problems with it.  As if they had been loaded too light.  (But, I'm at a mid-level load, 4.0gr in a C45S and 160gr. and I'm anal about measuring powder).  I had never known it to be position sensitive before, so perhaps it was cold sensitive? 

 

Yes, lights loads of TB can be cold sensitive and erratic.  Below about half of the published weight range, and loads get to be weak and squibby.

 

Easy to check - stuff your box of ammo in your coat between stages, or open a handwarmer packet and set the ammo box on that in your cart.  If it runs fine warmed up, then your load with TB is light enough to be cold weak.   But really you have already tested and found it is cold weak.  From that first time you shot it below 40 F, it was erratic.

 

Raise powder levels above the half-way point, or use a different powder. 

It's not unusual.  GJ

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2 hours ago, McCandless said:

I really like Shooters World Clean Shot.  

I basically did the same as you and went into this down-swing with a reasonable and varied on hand stock of supplies . I also really liked Shooter World Clean Shot, but finally had to give up on finding any more of it after I ran out. Seems to be only available in the east. Anyhow, I opened one of the 8 lb jugs of Titegroup and switched back to it. I've also been experimenting with Winclean 244. It seems to be promising.  

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Trailboss has never been a great powder that can do everything well.  My go to all around powder is real black but if I have to use the fad powder, I use Unique and Titegroup.

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4 hours ago, Snakebite said:

I basically did the same as you and went into this down-swing with a reasonable and varied on hand stock of supplies . I also really liked Shooter World Clean Shot, but finally had to give up on finding any more of it after I ran out. Seems to be only available in the east. Anyhow, I opened one of the 8 lb jugs of Titegroup and switched back to it. I've also been experimenting with Winclean 244. It seems to be promising.  

 

I get my Clean Shot from Scarlett Darlin'.  She's a distributor here in the Southeast.  Perhaps she'll know some West Coast distributor?  But Titegroup is a great powder.  I've never come across any Winclean 244.

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5 hours ago, McCandless said:

 

I get my Clean Shot from Scarlett Darlin'.  She's a distributor here in the Southeast.  Perhaps she'll know some West Coast distributor?  But Titegroup is a great powder.  I've never come across any Winclean 244.

Yes, She is the only place that I have ever seen it, but she won't ship it. O-well... It's not going to be a "Show Stopper".

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/3/2021 at 10:36 AM, Rough 'N Ready Rob said:

I use 700x high score in all pistol round, Shot shells and my 38-55 rounds out to 200yds. I have about 20 pound yet. My daughter hasn't been shooting with me lately

  so there will still be some around when I'm gone I'm sure.

 

This may be good advice. I was about to order some powders, some obscure and most I've never tried, but they were still available. Then I did some stock taking. I have a few #s of this and that, and when my TB runs out I think I'll start using up what i have. after all, why go to yet another ho-hum powder when I already have a few of those in my powder magazine. 

 

I recently bought a 45 rifle and it came with some ammo. I shot it over the chrono, and it was a bit faster than my TB load, but fairly consistent. The seller had mentioned it was loaded with 700X, and I broke down a round and confirmed that it was 700X. the charge was 5.5 grains and the primer looked like a Federal. 

 

I'd recently purchased half a container of 700X for $5, so I decided to load up some more with CCI 300 LP primers to see if I could duplicate the load. 

 

To my surprise I was about 100 fps fast and the numbers weren't as good. I was a bit stumped, disappointed and not happy either. It should have worked.

 

I tried some other loads with 452, and those had issues as well. So, I decided to pull a few more of the 45 bullets, and the powder looked the same, yellow marker, 700X bit the charge on one was 4.4 grains and 4.8 grains. I don't know what this felow had used for measuring, but that is more variance than I use as a minimum standard. 

 

Then the mystery became less mysterious. Before chronographing the load I had weight selected 10 rounds. Why, just to cut down on the variables. With cast bullets it's not unusual to find a few grains of variation. I didn't suspect that the powder was the biggest variable. I loaded 10 more with 4.6 grains and the same CCI LP primer, and the numbers were good. and only about 20 fps fast. 

 

IIRC from back in the day 700X was a fast burning shotgun powder, or as competition for Red Dot. I was curious so I looked up 700X in the National Forensic data base. It didn't take long to narrow it down. 700X is just a variation of Bullseye. Exactly the same components, just in a different mix. A bit less nitroglycerine than Ethyl centralite, whereas Bullseye uses about equal amounts of each in there mix. The end result is that 700X is a bit less dense than Bullseye, and the flakes are a bit bigger as well. 

 

What appeals to me about using 700X is that one of the Canadian suppliers has a "similar to 700X" powder that they sell every year, but it sells out quickly. I'll do a bit more testing, but I believe I'll be buying some the next time it in stock.  I have about a # and a half to test with in the mean time. 

 

BB

 

 

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About a month ago, I was driving down the road with a buddy, and we passed a big hand lettered "ESTATE SALE" sign.

 

"ESTATE SALE T, F, S, S, CARS, TOOLS, FURNITURE, HOUSEWARES, CLOTHES, RELOADING STUFF - EVERYTHING MUST GO!"

Reloading stuff? I turned around, went back, pulled in, and they were getting things set up for the next day, so I asked if they'd do early sales. We drove away with a 5 lb jug of Trail Boss, nine 9 oz cans, an 8 lb jug of Clays, eight 14 oz cans, an 8 lb jug of American Select, an 8 lb jug of Unique, an 8 lb jug of Red Dot, and twelve 1 pound cans of Titegroup, all unopened. $345, and we left a lot, like IMR4350, Reloder 22, H870, and others. Some of the date codes go back to 2015, and even 2013 on one, but I don't think there will be a problem.

We couldn't help but brag a bit, and damn, suddenly we had fifty new best friends wanting "some of that $5 powder". A few of them we didn't even know! :lol: Can't blame them for trying, I guess.

I've been averaging over 40 CAS matches a year, and he's a 9mm blaster, so if the mid-term and 2024 elections go Right, it'll get us through the next 4-5 years until things become readily available again. :)

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Oddly enough, no primers - maybe somebody beat us to them. But primers I have - and I recently picked up 3000 more Cheddite 209's at the Sportsman's Warehouse in Missoula. There are a few more in one of the other outbuildings - gotta keep the fire marshal happy, doncha know. :)

Primers01.jpg.6a3e3d7b9cb1e700be314eff0e8012ba.jpg

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On 12/2/2021 at 4:30 PM, Buckshot Bear said:

I read awhile back in one of the Aussie gun rags that some of the Aussie artillery shells use up to 20 -30 kilos (depending on shell) of Trail Boss.

 

I've looked everywhere to reference the article but can't find it. I'm sure it was in the SSAA mag, any other Aussies remember reading the article?

Highly unlikely I think.  Propellant in Artillery type  shells is AFAIK  very different to small arms powders.   (My Uncle was QC manager for Army ammunition at the old St Marys plant.. I visited him there once, actually on a "Field trip" from the Naval College with my whole class of Midshipmen!  I got plenty of stick over being taken to lunch in the Executive dining room... :lol:) The propellant used then... (early 1980s) in the 105's we saw consisted of largeish  yellow "blocks" (Maybe tubes?  A long time ago) of propellant.   IIRC about 8-10 mm in length...   I doubt the propellants used now are much different.  Any "fine" powder- like the stuff we use - would burn way too fast I expect...  And the charge weight was certainly nowhere near 20 or 30 kg!   Thats nearly the  weight of a whole 4.5" naval gun round - including shell! (Ask me how I know :)... got shoved into the turret on HMAS PARRAMATTA as an ammunition number...The ammo is heavy..AND filthy...lol)   Not even the Armys 155mm ammo would have a charge weight that high...  the shell is "only" 44 kg... and charge weight is never anywhere near shell weight IME... I think the 155 has a charge weight of around 6kg.... (13 lb)     The 16" Naval guns on MISSOURI and WISCONSIN (etc) had a charge up to 800 lbs in weight,  true... but the shells went up to 2,700!!! (Staggering)

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16 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

...I've been averaging over 40 CAS matches a year, and he's a 9mm blaster, so if the mid-term and 2024 elections go Right, it'll get us through the next 4-5 years until things become readily available again. :)

 You're averaging over 40 matches a year? You Sir, are living right. :D

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6 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

 You're averaging over 40 matches a year? You Sir, are living right. :D

Barely - the average is over 40, but less than 41. Like 40.326511478020365 or something. :lol:

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On 12/26/2021 at 2:13 PM, Three Foot Johnson said:

Barely - the average is over 40, but less than 41. Like 40.326511478020365 or something. :lol:

 My hat is off to you , TFJ. I average about 10 matches per year. Been that way for several years now.

Rex :D

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12 hours ago, Rex M Rugers #6621 said:

 My hat is off to you , TFJ. I average about 10 matches per year. Been that way for several years now.

Rex :D

 

Yeah, I'm lucky to get 3 monthlies and 2 matches. No wonder the the primer shortage has not affected me. :o

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Well , the 10 matches for me are monthlies. I did go to a Texas State about 5 years ago , and the Utah State last June.

It is a pretty long drive for me to get to any match. 

Rex :D

Thread has veered off from looking for Trail Boss powder a good bit. :lol:

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3 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

 

Yeah, I'm lucky to get 3 monthlies and 2 matches. No wonder the the primer shortage has not affected me. :o

Monthlies ARE matches... aren't they??

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On 12/2/2021 at 3:09 PM, Hoss said:

Ive never understood why folks like TB so much. The ONLY advantage it has is one cannot double-charge a case with it. It’s smelly, dirty, expensive. I use a lot if Bullseye, Unique & Red Dot. Old powders that just work! 
I do use 5744 in my heave 535 grn 45/70 Sharps loads. But also use Unique  with 45/70 with 405 or less Bullets. Also use unique with 45/60 & 38/55. It’s a good all-around powder. 

I believe the justification for Trailboss is to pretty much fill a case. I like that before I manually place a bullet for seating, although 45 Colt is big enough to allow viewing most charges easily enough. My guns are not shooting particularly dirty, and my loads are not all that light, pretty much Hodgdon minimum, so I suspect any complaints are due to cowboys loading under minimum. Hodgdon minimum is actually a pretty serious load. I think the closest in case filling ability (VMD) and with significantly lower pressure data is Clays, which is good for shotgun too.

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On 12/25/2021 at 3:37 PM, Three Foot Johnson said:

About a month ago, I was driving down the road with a buddy, and we passed a big hand lettered "ESTATE SALE" sign.

 

"ESTATE SALE T, F, S, S, CARS, TOOLS, FURNITURE, HOUSEWARES, CLOTHES, RELOADING STUFF - EVERYTHING MUST GO!"

Reloading stuff? I turned around, went back, pulled in, and they were getting things set up for the next day, so I asked if they'd do early sales. We drove away with a 5 lb jug of Trail Boss, nine 9 oz cans, an 8 lb jug of Clays, eight 14 oz cans, an 8 lb jug of American Select, an 8 lb jug of Unique, an 8 lb jug of Red Dot, and twelve 1 pound cans of Titegroup, all unopened. $345, and we left a lot, like IMR4350, Reloder 22, H870, and others. Some of the date codes go back to 2015, and even 2013 on one, but I don't think there will be a problem.

We couldn't help but brag a bit, and damn, suddenly we had fifty new best friends wanting "some of that $5 powder". A few of them we didn't even know! :lol: Can't blame them for trying, I guess.

I've been averaging over 40 CAS matches a year, and he's a 9mm blaster, so if the mid-term and 2024 elections go Right, it'll get us through the next 4-5 years until things become readily available again. :)

When I first started shooting I told my wife that “some people shoot every weekend, I’ll just shoot once a month”. 
now I shoot on average 3 monthly matches a month, 5 annuals, 6 or so long range matches. I’ve even shot a monthly at one club on Saturday, another on Sunday! So at least 40/year. My wife reminds me of my “just one match a month” comment! I thoroughly enjoy the shooting, but it’s the friendships I’ve made that matter most. 
“come for the shooting, stay for the people”

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