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SASS HQ moving to Indiana


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I think Toranado is correct.   Whatever "value" people see in an organization is dependent on them.  Over 30 years in this game and I can say that SASS has been a positive influence on shooting, in general  When it was a lot smaller people came together for the shooting and the camaraderie.  They still do for the most part.  SASS headquarters has never been anything but a central point through which all the rules and organizing functions have been discussed and codified.   Whoever is in charge at any point in time calls the shots.  Sure, there is input from "customers" ,whether in person, through Territorial Governors or here on the Wire.   In the end, if any anyone one individual or individuals doesn't see "value" they make their own decision.  

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Hap... nothing but respect for you man. Just a question: After the ranch was vacated by EOT, why would SASS continue to pay rent on it? I would expect that the only expense other than salaries would be the rent paid on office space in Moriarity, and I doubt that rent was as much as a mortgage on a building. I'm not totally down on things, but if this is a good thing for the Game then tell us why it is. If it is a good thing for THEIR business, then THAT is their business so long as it doesn't effect our GAME. Try to see what I am "Dancing around" here. If having total control over EOT is important, then that will never happen as long as EOT is held at the Ben Avery site in Phoenix. So a move to a new location that could be used as a site to put on EOT would make good business sense.  If that is the eventual goal then say so, if not, then tell us how the move helps the GAME, if it is a total business decision and doesn't involve the membership, then say so and it will end speculations. 

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The may have had a land lease that they couldnt break until the sale happened.

 

Also, look up the sales price on the building they bought.  I would dig it out, but I'm on my phone.  I seem to recall seeing it was listed for under 100k, but I'm not sure what the final price was.  Real estate in the Midwest is a bargain these days.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I think it already is up and running in a large number of existing clubs, worldwide who can operate with or without SASS connections.

 

All that is really needed is a network structure for a unifying Council of Club Reps, some agreed Bylaws, a 501(c) status filing ( if done within the US) and interest in memberships. …

Up and running?  You note incomplete unifying, Reps, bylaws and 501.

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Here is a question:

 

Personally, I don't care where the SASS HQ is situated.  The phone or Internet will get me there, if needed.  It would be enough explanation to say that Misty and others has served their time living in or around Moriarty and/or Edgewood and they want new surroundings.  I certainly would, if I were them.   That's up to them, in fairness.   

 

And I've never had the time to travel to EOT or Winter Range, no matter where it was held, so truthfully, it doesn't matter to me where those events are located.  

 

But I do shoot, and plan to shoot more Regional and State matches, here around the West Coast and Southwest.  So I am keenly interested in the degree to which those matches will continue receiving SASS sponsorship, support and assistance, now with SASS located so far over the horizon.   I believe there are a lot of members like me.  

 

Putting on those matches is a big expense, and folks are required to be SASS members to participate.  So can someone describe the magnitude of SASS financial participation that takes place in exchange for the dues and per-shooter and other fees charged these events?  Does SASS sponsor them in the $$ hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands?  Does SASS provide substantial raffle prizes or staffing?   

Please educate me. 

 

What is visible is local clubs doing a lot of the work with volunteers and local member donations/sponsorships and with and very few hired services.   Again, can somebody please educate me as to the level of SASS assistance?

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Misty let us know about the WB selling Founders Ranch in the Cowboy Chronicle maybe she plans on doing the same with the building acquisition in an upcoming issue. 

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As has been mentioned before - SASS is its own entity.  We pay a fee to be affliated, receive a protected alias and shoot state and above SASS sanctioned matches.

 

What we do not get out of our "membership" is a vote, ownership or input into their operations.

 

Which includes where they choose to place their offices.  And I will begrudge no one leaving Moriarty New Mexico.

 

Im going out on a limb - but I would say that this building provides a more professional appearance than having the mailing address be someones home office.

 

It also, as someone pointed out, provides a space to display the SASS hall of fame.

Perhaps a small museum detailing the Wild Bunch and SASS history.

Future use might provide space for TV bits (such as the spots filmed on site at The Center of the West in Cody).

 

Imagine a cowboy segment on TV for the outdoor channel - "coming to you from the SASS world HQ" - has a nice ring to it.

 

A brick and mortar building lends itself to all sorts of possibilities - not available if the SASS HQ becomes just a virtual operation based in someones home.

 

I haven't agreed with every decision made by SASS - but I won't argue about a choice that I don't know the facts of and has zero affect on me.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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 Usually, When something like this happens, the response is  "Not In My Back Yard." This is "It Should Have Been In My Back Yard. " 

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4 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

OK, I'm looking at the contract template and doing some admittedly very rough math. 

 

It looks like SASS out-of-pocket costs, per-event, is capped about $400-500 paid out to hosting  clubs.   So figure 30-40 ( or so) State matches annually, plus Regionals, plus WR, plus EOT, we're seeing (very roughly) $12,000 to maybe  -$25,000  per year in match support pay-out.  (probably well above that figure for WR or EOT). 

 

Just using some plug-in but logical seeming shooter numbers, At $5 per shooter, they take in $500 - $1500 for a typical State or Regional match with  100-300 shooters.  So using the 40-50 match per year number, that is ($20K minus 12K expenses, )= $8,000 to ($75K minus $25k expenses or) = $50,000k annually NET from matches.  That's about $50% pay-out.  So far so good.  

 

But that excludes the dues payed in by all of those shooters who are  required to be members, plus dues of many others who don't shoot the larger matches, so are excluded from the above numbers.   Without knowing the (secret) total number of dues paying "member-customers", we're justvguessing.   But if we use a bare minimum of 10,000 members, which certainly seems reasonable, that yields over a $500,000 per year in dues revenue.  When we compare that to the  $12 -$25k pay- out to hosting clubs, that's now down to 2- 5%. 

 

Other member benefits exist,  including the various SASS Forums,  Chronicle, SASS museum and others.  All of that takes admin dollars.  No numbers are even guessable for those.  

But regardless of how  the input numbers are varied, the member benefit pay-out looks like max 20% or so annually.    I am sure salaries take another very big chunk.   But it appears the current real estate transaction should be easily affordable, from just a single years profits. 

 

These numbers are admittedly very loose, but does anyone out there think there are less that 10,000 dues paying SASS members?  Correct me if I am wrong.  (I wish we at least knew the real number of our pards. I've never heard of any other club who would not disclose the size if its membership. )

 

Being patriotic to our parent organization and its long history is a very good thing.   I wish I could be sure that SASS is still the same organization today.  20% seems low to me.   With so much held secret, it's hard to know the real numbers or SASS viability.   The unknowns leave a lot of questions.   

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

OK, I'm looking at the contract template and doing some admittedly very rough math. 

 

It looks like SASS out-of-pocket costs, per-event, is capped about $400-500 paid out to hosting  clubs.   So figure 30-40 ( or so) State matches annually, plus Regionals, plus WR, plus EOT, we're seeing (very roughly) $12,000 to maybe  -$25,000  per year in match support pay-out.  (probably well above that figure for WR or EOT). 

 

Just using some plug-in but logical seeming shooter numbers, At $5 per shooter, they take in $500 - $1500 for a typical State or Regional match with  100-300 shooters.  So using the 40-50 match per year number, that is ($20K minus 12K expenses, )= $8,000 to ($75K minus $25k expenses or) = $50,000k annually NET from matches.  That's about $50% pay-out.  So far so good.  

 

But that excludes the dues payed in by all of those shooters who are  required to be members, plus dues of many others who don't shoot the larger matches, so are excluded from the above numbers.   Without knowing the (secret) total number of dues paying "member-customers", we're justvguessing.   But if we use a bare minimum of 10,000 members, which certainly seems reasonable, that yields over a $500,000 per year in dues revenue.  When we compare that to the  $12 -$25k pay- out to hosting clubs, that's now down to 2- 5%. 

 

Other member benefits exist,  including the various SASS Forums,  Chronicle, SASS museum and others.  All of that takes admin dollars.  No numbers are even guessable for those.  

But regardless of how  the input numbers are varied, the member benefit pay-out looks like max 20% or so annually.    I am sure salaries take another very big chunk.   But it appears the current real estate transaction should be easily affordable, from just a single years profits. 

 

These numbers are admittedly very loose, but does anyone out there think there are less that 10,000 dues paying SASS members?  Correct me if I am wrong.  (I wish we at least knew the real number of our pards. I've never heard of any other club who would not disclose the size if its membership. )

 

Being patriotic to our parent organization and its long history is a very good thing.   I wish I could be sure that SASS is still the same organization today.  20% seems low to me.   With so much held secret, it's hard to know the real numbers or SASS viability.   The unknowns leave a lot of questions.   

 

 

What difference does it make? If you’re losing that much sleep over it stop paying your dues and do something else. The ink hasn’t even dried on the contract and you have to start your bitching with absolutely no clue as to why they did what they did. Sheesh!!!

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9 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

What difference does it make? If you’re losing that much sleep over it stop paying your dues and do something else. The ink hasn’t even dried on the contract and you have to start your bitching with absolutely no clue as to why they did what they did. Sheesh!!!

I just looked at numbers and shared it with folks.  If it's offensive, don't read it 

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2 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I just looked at numbers and shared it with folks.  If it's offensive, don't read it 

Your numbers are mostly speculation with little to back them up.

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Congratulations on your move.  Wish you guys the best.  Appreciate all you doing so we can shoot!!!  Like the building.

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

 

Most guesstimations of the number of active SASS members fail to include Life/Patron members who paid a one-time membership fee over the past 40 or so years.
The last time I saw "active" membership numbers was when the redistricting map for Divisionals  & Regionals was being discussed by the TGs.


 

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9 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Your numbers are mostly speculation with little to back them up.

Having real numbers would be much better, Yul, I will readily agree.  But where are those numbers ever disclosed?

 

My estimates (and I readily admitted they were loose) were based on the SASS Contract Template language.  SASS agrees to provide two awards, and contribute $200 in SASS Mercantile gift cards.  The only number I question in the contract was the $5 per shooter fee at SASS matches.  I recently shot the Western Regional at Chorro Valley Regulators, and the SASS fee per shooter was $7.  But I just used the $5 in the contract language.  

 

 I really have no idea how many SASS sanctioned matches there are, for purposes of expanding those numbers nationally or globally.  But I will bet my numbers are on the low side, worldwide.  

 

I also based my numbers on a very low guess of 10,000 dues paying SASS members.  That could be way off.  If we have 20,000 members, then double the dues revenue estimate.  If we only have 5,000, then half it. But the dues rate itself is a set multiplier.  

 

No matter how you figure it, SASS now returns a very low % of member derived revenue in host Club  benefits as compared to other shooting organizations.   How nice it would be if our overarching organization would foster grants or loans to its member clubs to fix/add facilities or buy and replace targets.  Other national shooting organizations do that.  Others also often negotiate blocks of reduced rate rooms for lodging, etc for members attending their functions.  I honestly don't know if SASS does that or not.  

 

Your point to simply quit paying dues,  rather than bitch about it, is a bit unfair, Yul.   SASS won't let us shoot larger matches without being paid-up members, so quitting paying dues isn't really much of a option for those who want to participate in the sport.  I'm not asking for there to be no dues or fees.  But I'd like to see a larger slice of our dues and fees returned to help our clubs support our sport --and also to help us support SASS itself.  But 5-20% is very low, IMO.  

 

But I used the best source of numbers that we are allowed to see.  

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Most guesstimations of the number of active SASS members fail to include Life/Patron members who paid a one-time membership fee over the past 40 or so years.
The last time I saw "active" membership numbers was when the redistricting map for Divisionals  & Regionals was being discussed by the TGs.


 

That's a valid point that I didn't consider.  It will lower the annual dues estimate accordingly, which will raise the benefit pay-out %.  

Thank you for the correction.  

Like I've said, having some real numbers would help us to feel better--or worse, as it were.  

Thx again. 

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17 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I recently shot the Western Regional at Chorro Valley Regulators, and the SASS fee per shooter was $7.  But I just used the $5 in the contract language. 

I believe 5 is for state, 7 is for regional...but I could be wrong.

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14 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

I believe 5 is for state, 7 is for regional...but I could be wrong.

Thanks.  That would fit.  

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@Dusty Devil Dale...

 

You're also forgetting about...https://www.sassnet.com/clubs/affiliated.php this link contains links associated with both income and expenses.

 

Additionally, there are other championship matches for Wild Bunch and Black Powder. They all include both income and expenses.

 

Further, consider the financials associated with the SASS RO program.

 

There are other many other costs and benefits that have not yet been mentioned.

 

How much does the chronicle cost?

 

But none of that really matters. 

 

More importantly, the financials that many more are concerned about deal at the club level. Believe it or not, but there are quite a few clubs struggling to remain financially solvent. More than a couple have folded within the last year. As more clubs fold, the ability for all of us to continue to play the game goes down.

 

And, believe it or not, there are many folks out there working their tails off without though of gain or care for the financials of the organization. More akin to Kennedy's challenge to ask not....

 

While many work at the local level, there are several who volunteer their time at the higher levels as well. Your club's TG, the SASS RO committee, the Wild Bunch RO committee...all these folks work to improve the game with little to no benefit to themselves.

 

If they are lucky enough, they may get a handshake or a simple thank you. Some are fortunate enough to be recognized at the club level or nationally with the title of Regulator or Hall of Famer.

 

But, for many of them, they only do what they do for the love of the game.

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854
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On 8/27/2021 at 7:49 PM, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

I laugh at it being central! 26 hour drive for us to you...only 17 to the California coast...

About 13 hours to Arkansas....

But none of that matters...

 

Screenshot_20210827-195037_Google.jpg

Screenshot_20210827-195210_Google.jpg

And it's pronounced Bell Foosh, about 30 miles NW of me. They had a nice marker setup for years and then decided it was actually a few miles more towards town.

Edited by Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L
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2 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

@Dusty Devil Dale...

 

You're also forgetting about...https://www.sassnet.com/clubs/affiliated.php this link contains links associated with both income and expenses.

 

Additionally, there are other championship matches for Wild Bunch and Black Powder. They all include both income and expenses.

 

Further, consider the financials associated with the SASS RO program.

 

There are other many other costs and benefits that have not yet been mentioned.

 

How much does the chronicle cost?

 

But none of that really matters. 

 

More importantly, the financials that many more are concerned about deal at the club level. Believe it or not, but there are quite a few clubs struggling to remain financially solvent. More than a couple have folded within the last year. As more clubs fold, the ability for all of us to continue to play the game goes down.

 

And, believe it or not, there are many folks out there working their tails off without though of gain or care for the financials of the organization. More akin to Kennedy's challenge to ask not....

 

While many work at the local level, there are several who volunteer their time at the higher levels as well. Your club's TG, the SASS RO committee, the Wild Bunch RO committee...all these folks work to improve the game with little to no benefit to themselves.

 

If they are lucky enough, they may get a handshake or a simple thank you. Some are fortunate enough to be recognized at the club level or nationally with the title of Regulator or Hall of Famer.

 

But, for many of them, they only do what they do for the love of the game.

I went to the link you posted, but I couldn't find any specific financials; only a list of provided programs and benefits available.  Looking down that list, very few items appear to represent large ongoing annual costs to SASS. 

 

For example what is the annual cost to SASS of the RO training program?  When I took the courses, I downloaded and printed the manuals at home and paid the instructors a separate fee for the courses.  I don't think the instructors received pay or even travel reimbursement from SASS.  I could be mistaken. Please correct me, if so.   Does SASS pay a part of the annual RO course costs, or just cover the one-time cost of volunteers or staff developing the on-line manuals?  

 

Please don't take my inquiries wrongly.  I don't personally believe or know anybody else who believes the dues paid to SASS are in any way unreasonable.   My only concern is with the apparent small slice shared back with the clubs who host matches that attract shooters who become the financial basis for our sport and for SASS itself.  It seems like a small reinvestment level in the organization's own life blood.   Conversely, a substantial amount appears now to be annually taken as profit by the for-profit company.  Despite the grandness of museums and other showy things, that may not be very sustaining to the sport or to SASS itself, over a longer haul. 

Only time can tell.  

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On 8/27/2021 at 6:55 AM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I heard it was because it was easier to spell than Pasacagoula, Mississippi.

;)

 

..........Widder

 

 

But in Pascagoula they have them famous squirrels!  

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They should have just moved HQ and not have disclosed the transition. Most members would've never noticed, it's just an address.

 

Looks like a structurally sound building with lots of space. Pretty good price per square foot. Doubt SASS needs all that room. They could lease out parts of that building for additional revenue. 

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I bought my son a Mustang a few months ago. I thought about calculating Ford’s profit margin, the split between the dealership and Ford. How much floor planning cost the dealership. It occurred to me that Ford might have a higher profit margin than GM did when I bought my Camaro, or vice versa. I thought about calculating those things for a split second then I realized, I don’t care about those things at all.
 

I do care whether it cranks up when I push the start button, reliably. Is it fun to drive? Is it reliable? Can I get it serviced easily. Is it safe? What’s the cost to own and operate relative to other vehicles.

 

In ten plus years of SASS membership I’ve pretty much been able to shoot any weekend I want to. The matches are fun, mostly. They’re safe. They’re inexpensive. SASS membership costs are ridiculously low. It costs less than $200 a year for all 5 of us to be members. I spend more money on one month worth of ammo than I send to SASS in a year.  
 

Tell me again why SASS operating decisions should be important to me?
 

I’m sure this was a carefully considered decision. A lot of speculation and suggestions came out of EOT at Paradise Pass.  Misty knows what she is doing.
 

I’m willing to wait and see optimistic that there’s a plan here that will be good for our game. 
 

In the meantime I’m focusing on things that interest me, next Saturday’s match at River Bend, TN State, SE Regional, and how can I set my schedule up so I can shoot a major match every month in 2022.
 

Thanks SASS and SASS members for making a goal like that achievable.

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Does anyone have any idea what a match like EOT could gross before paying expenses? Entry fees, add on fees, yata, yata, and upwards of 5-6-700 shooters? Just batting around LOOSE numbers of the fees that are shown, and guesstimating possible number of shooters, vender fees, side event fees and fees for camping, walking you dog or having your photo taken beside a cardboard cutout of Cowboy Johnson could easily add up to a quarter million dollars or more before expenses. So... the key to it is to keep down the expenses! The number one place to start in that regard is a cheap place to shoot that will still attract the numbers you desire. Choosing that spot is where the BIG BUSINESS decision comes into play. The last time that decision was made it was a bad choice, they NEVER recovered for it, and the GAME suffered because of it.  Giving up the biggest "Golden Egg Laying Goose" that has existed in this GAME is not something that I believe is going to happen in the long run. Why would it be allowed to happen other than on short term basis to allow time to regroup! Any business has every right to run their business LIKE A BUSINESS! And any CEO is and should be held responsible for seeing to it that things are run like a business. I have NEVER had any problem with that, EVER, and STILL don't. I am for the GAME. PERIOD. Anything that hurts the GAME is something that I am against. I don't know if moving EOT to yet another location is best for the GAME or not, I don't know for a fact that will happen again, but I believe it is on the hidden agenda simply because it could be the best Business decision for making money. I do know this, the Phoenix group puts on one of the two best matches in the GAME and that is good for the GAME. They have the best proven record of ANY place, by far! There are a lot of you that simply don't seem to understand that this GAME belongs to US, THE SHOOTERS! SASS only owns the name ... Nobody can stop us from playing this GAME any where we want to play it. If someone makes a lot of money by supply us with a place to play the GAME that's OK with me, in fact I think it's fantastic. As long as they give me what I want, at a price that I am willing to pay, and a location I can get to, then I will pay the Big GAME at their location. When ANY of that stops, then I will stop going. That happened in NM, it has never happened in Phoenix. 

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Okay the horse is dead! SASS has moved, big deal! Congrats SASS!!! Can we stop all this BS now??:o

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20 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Does anyone have any idea what a match like EOT could gross before paying expenses? Entry fees, add on fees, yata, yata, and upwards of 5-6-700 shooters? Just batting around LOOSE numbers of the fees that are shown, and guesstimating possible number of shooters, vender fees, side event fees and fees for camping, walking you dog or having your photo taken beside a cardboard cutout of Cowboy Johnson could easily add up to a quarter million dollars or more before expenses. So... the key to it is to keep down the expenses! The number one place to start in that regard is a cheap place to shoot that will still attract the numbers you desire. Choosing that spot is where the BIG BUSINESS decision comes into play. The last time that decision was made it was a bad choice, they NEVER recovered for it, and the GAME suffered because of it.  Giving up the biggest "Golden Egg Laying Goose" that has existed in this GAME is not something that I believe is going to happen in the long run. Why would it be allowed to happen other than on short term basis to allow time to regroup! Any business has every right to run their business LIKE A BUSINESS! And any CEO is and should be held responsible for seeing to it that things are run like a business. I have NEVER had any problem with that, EVER, and STILL don't. I am for the GAME. PERIOD. Anything that hurts the GAME is something that I am against. I don't know if moving EOT to yet another location is best for the GAME or not, I don't know for a fact that will happen again, but I believe it is on the hidden agenda simply because it could be the best Business decision for making money. I do know this, the Phoenix group puts on one of the two best matches in the GAME and that is good for the GAME. They have the best proven record of ANY place, by far! There are a lot of you that simply don't seem to understand that this GAME belongs to US, THE SHOOTERS! SASS only owns the name ... Nobody can stop us from playing this GAME any where we want to play it. If someone makes a lot of money by supply us with a place to play the GAME that's OK with me, in fact I think it's fantastic. As long as they give me what I want, at a price that I am willing to pay, and a location I can get to, then I will pay the Big GAME at their location. When ANY of that stops, then I will stop going. That happened in NM, it has never happened in Phoenix. 

You forgot the number of spectators that paid. In Norco they had a very large crowd. 10-20k people paying to check out EOT. It's all about location, a mediocre shooting event in a great location is more lucrative than the best event in an out of the way location. 

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Well,

I joined SASS in 2002 and have been extremely satisfied. I've never visited SASS headquarters in California or New Mexico but that did not seem to change my enjoyment of CAS. It is doubtful I'll visit SASS headquarters in Indiana. I'll continue to enjoy shooting with friends & acquaintances for as long as I'm able, regardless of where SASS headquarters is located. As for me & my house, I appreciate the folks that keep CAS and SASS alive & well.

 

Vaya con Dios, Keystone

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14 minutes ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

Well,

I joined SASS in 2002 and have been extremely satisfied. I've never visited SASS headquarters in California or New Mexico but that did not seem to change my enjoyment of CAS. It is doubtful I'll visit SASS headquarters in Indiana. I'll continue to enjoy shooting with friends & acquaintances for as long as I'm able, regardless of where SASS headquarters is located. As for me & my house, I appreciate the folks that keep CAS and SASS alive & well.

 

Vaya con Dios, Keystone

You haven't missed much, there is little to see at HQ. I agree totally with your sentiment and believe that the vast majority feel the same way.  I also appreciate those folks. It's not just a few people that makes all this work, but many people that keep this Fantasy alive. Few understand or care what takes place behind the scenes, but it is those things that end up effecting and providing everyone else with the GAME that they love to play. 

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13 hours ago, Assassin said:

You forgot the number of spectators that paid. In Norco they had a very large crowd. 10-20k people paying to check out EOT. It's all about location, a mediocre shooting event in a great location is more lucrative than the best event in an out of the way location. 

EOT this year at Paradise Pass was free for spectators. 

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Over the years, the only thing that the addresses in CA, NM and now IN mean to me is where I send my renewal.

If I have to contact them, it's a phone number, no matter where that phone is. Do I care where their HQ "bldg" is? Not really. What I care about is that SASS continues, that CAS continues. The folks at SASS HQ have done a pretty good job over the years. Do I agree with everything they do? No, but I don't know everything they do either.

Just keep up the support and guidance for the sport we love and we will be fine. You folks that say its too far away from you... did you ever go to the old HQs? Why would you need to? Maybe the new bldg will house more of an attraction... more to come. Maybe it will just be an office; ok by me. Thanks SASS HQ folks... carry on.

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12 hours ago, Mister Badly said:

EOT this year at Paradise Pass was free for spectators. 

And we picked up some brand new shooters out of the deal. 

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