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Shotgun Gurus, Do hulls matter???


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I am starting to load shotgun which I know nothing about so any advice will be appreciated. I am planning on using APP 3F powder with used Red Winchester AA hulls. 3/4 ounce #8 shot and I mistakenly bought Clear Claybuster wads, does this matter or must I use a certain color???

 

Thanks In Advance

Grinnin Jim

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What is the P/N of the Claybuster wads you bought?

 

You will need about 35 grains by weight of 3F APP. You can use more but 35 grains by weight is all you need. Now you need enough shot to get the stack height right so that the hulls will properly crimp.

 

The color of a wad no longer has any meaning. You have to know its capacity.

 

All of the above applies to BP and BP Subs only. Loading shotshells with smokeless powder has a completely different set of rules.

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First if you’re using APP with plastic hulls keep an eye on your spent shells.  In my experience APP burns more like BP than smokeless and will make the plastic brittle after 1 or 2 reloading.  The other thing with using APP with plastic wads is it will leave plastic residue in the barrels of your shotgun.  There is much advice on the forum on how to clean them (plug the barrels and let them sit with hot water; spray them with Windex with vinegar, etc.).  Personally I was never lucky or was doing it wrong and had to scrub to get the barrels clean.

 

A basic rule for APP with SG loads is using a square load, ¾ oz APP (by Volume) / ¾ oz of shot.  You may want to consider a heavier load you don’t want to KD’s stay up.  I’d go more like 1 - 1 ¼ oz.  but as SD said column height and a good crimp is very important.

 

And Claybuster’s wads are just as good, if not better, than any other brand

Edited by Tequila Shooter
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5 minutes ago, Tequila Shooter said:

First if you’re using APP with plastic hulls keep an eye on your spent shells.  In my experience APP burns more like BP than smokeless and will make the plastic brittle after 1 or 2 reloading.  The other thing with using APP with plastic wads is it will leave plastic residue in the barrels of your shotgun.  There is much advice on the forum on how to clean them (plug the barrels and let them sit with hot water; spray them with Windex with vinegar, etc.).  Personally I was never lucky or was doing it wrong and had to scrub to get the barrels clean.

 

A basic rule for APP with SG loads is using a square load, ¾ oz APP (by weight) / ¾ oz of shot.  You may want to consider a heavier load you don’t want to KD’s stay up.  I’d go more like 1 - 1 ¼ oz.  but as SD said column height and a good crimp is very important.

 

And Claybuster’s wads are just as good, if not better, than any other brand

 

@Tequila Shooter

 

When shooting BP a square load is equal volume of powder and shot NOT equal weight. 3/4 of an ounce is 328 grains.

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3 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

@Tequila Shooter

 

When shooting BP a square load is equal volume of powder and shot NOT equal weight. 3/4 of an ounce is 328 grains.

 

OOPS of course you’re right :wacko:.  That’s another reason I can’t multi-task. 

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49 minutes ago, Grinnin Jim said:

I am starting to load shotgun which I know nothing about so any advice will be appreciated. I am planning on using APP 3F powder with used Red Winchester AA hulls. 3/4 ounce #8 shot and I mistakenly bought Clear Claybuster wads, does this matter or must I use a certain color???

 

Thanks In Advance

Grinnin Jim

Not a smart thing to do.  Get yourself the latest Lyman Shotshell Handbook and read up on how to load.  They're geared to the smokeless shooter, but.... the reasons behind using a specific wad with a specific shell and primer are still germane when loading with BP or a sub.   Just that different wad with a correct cushion length to go with the increased powder charge and a reduced payload.  

 

With the Winchester AA 12s I use either a Federal or Winchester primer, the Claybuster CB1138-12 wad, 3/4 oz of shot and the number 43 MEC bushing in my 600Jr maachine.  I was told last weekend my shotshells were a might stout!   But... if I reduce the powder significantly, I have to increase the shot to keep my crimps correct.  As SD states, it's all about keeping the stack height correct.  BTW, there are 3 different white looking wads on their website... :ph34r:

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Griff; put a fiber wad or two under you shot and you can use the same plastic wad. But you probably already know that.

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As others have stated equal volumes of shot and powder works with BP.  If you want to tighten the pattern up a little bit go with the next volume up on shot.  
The load that I have settled on is 1 oz volume BP and 1 1/8 of  shot.  Not at all hard on the shoulder and works with authority on knock downs. 

To get around the problem with wad heights and various interior dimensions of shotgun shell take a look at roll crimping your shells using a drill press.  Enough shells can be had by dumpster diving to keep you well supplied.   Use them once and throw away without worrying about burn through around the crimp line.  You can duct tape a paint stir stick on a band saw close to the blade and eyeball sawing the old crimp off the shell.    Stir stick kind of levels up the shell to account for the rim of the shell. 

In addition, the rolled crimp stiffens the shell enough that they will work fine through pumps actions that can be a little picky about that leading edge of your shell.  Also puts a slight taper to the shell when done correctly.  The old rolled crimp is also more authentic looking from the  paper shells time period vs. star crimp. 

Edited by Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326
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I too did a square load with 7/8 oz shot.  I have a lot of different wads and just sorted through until I found one that had the right stack height.   One bag should last quite a while as we don’t shoot much compared to other shotgun sports.   
 

there is a lot of wad buildup in the barrel.  After about 25 shots mine had hair balls of plastic coming out during cleaning. 

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My monthly match 12 gauge load is

 

Remington Gun Club or Federal Top Gun hull

Primer of choice

35 grains by weight of 3F APP

Claybuster CB0178-12 Hull

15/16th of an ounce of shot.

 

Works on every KD I have come across.

 

BTW I have an adjustable charge bar and adjust the shot charge to get a good crimp.

 

For state and above matches I shoot real BP. They are Black Dawg Cartridge Co. shells so I don't know how they are loaded but they make a really loud boom with lots of flame. Need have to sacrifice one to see how they are loaded.

Edited by Sedalia Dave
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27 minutes ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

As others have stated equal volumes of shot and powder works with BP.  If you want to tighten the pattern up a little bit go with the next volume up on shot.  
The load that I have settled on is 1 oz volume BP and 1 1/8 of  shot.  Not at all hard on the shoulder and works with authority on knock downs. 

To get around the problem with wad heights and various interior dimensions of shotgun shell take a look at roll crimping your shells using a drill press.  Enough shells can be had by dumpster diving to keep you well supplied.   Use them once and throw away without worrying about burn through around the crimp line.  You can duct tape a paint stir stick on a band saw close to the blade and eyeball sawing the old crimp off the shell.    Stir stick kind of levels up the shell to account for the rim of the shell. 

In addition, the rolled crimp stiffens the shell enough that they will work fine through pumps actions that can be a little picky about that leading edge of your shell.  Also puts a slight taper to the shell when done correctly.  The old rolled crimp is also more authentic looking from the  paper shells time period vs. star crimp. 

Go to the Ballistic Products website where you can buy tools to easily trim the length of plastic hulls & form a roll crimp on a drill press.

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Read this over first, especially the shotgun shell section:

 

https://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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7 minutes ago, J.D. Daily said:

Go to the Ballistic Products website where you can buy tools to easily trim the length of plastic hulls & form a roll crimp on a drill press.

+10  This is what I do with my BP loads using 35 grains of APP, 7/8 7.5 shot, AA hulls

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I use Winchester AA hulls one time and throw them away.  I mark them so nobody else uses them.  I have about six thousand hulls.  My recipe is 209 primer, 4.2cc BP, newspaper for wad and 1oz shot all handloaded.

Bitterroot Jak

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19 minutes ago, J.D. Daily said:

Go to the Ballistic Products website where you can buy tools to easily trim the length of plastic hulls & form a roll crimp on a drill press.

I have never tried a roll crimp but just ordered everything from Ballistic Products to try it. Unfortunately they are running 10-14 days to process and ship an order right now.

 

Randy

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2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

...For state and above matches I shoot real BP. They are Black Dawg Cartridge Co. shells so I don't know how they are loaded but they make a really loud boom with lots of flame. Need have to sacrifice one to see how they are loaded.

 

You must have been sitting on those for quite a while!

 

Oh, and you wouldn't be sacrificing it.  Just put it back together. :)

Edited by Abilene, SASS # 27489
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@Grinnin Jim here is a link to Buffalo Arms they sell BP loaded plastic hull SG shells.  It may give you an idea of BP/Shot amounts.  Here’s some more info

 

Black Powder Dram to Grain Conversion

and Equal Volume Shot Loads

exphorsa.gif

 

Dram (powder) Grains (powder) Ounce (shot)
2 55 3/4
2  1/4 62 7/8

2  1/2

68

1

2  3/4

75

1  1/8

3

82

1  1/4

3  1/4

89

1  3/8

3  1/2

96

1  1/2

3  3/4

102

1  5/8
4 109 1  3/4
4  1/4 116 1  7/8
4  1/2 123 2
4  3/4

130

2  1/8
5 137 2  1/4

 

For shot loads in a cylinder bore remember this little rhyme...

 

Less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead.

More powder, less lead, kicks hard, wide spread.

 

Remember a Dram of powder = 27.34 grains

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12 hours ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

As others have stated equal volumes of shot and powder works with BP.  If you want to tighten the pattern up a little bit go with the next volume up on shot.  
The load that I have settled on is 1 oz volume BP and 1 1/8 of  shot.  Not at all hard on the shoulder and works with authority on knock downs. 

To get around the problem with wad heights and various interior dimensions of shotgun shell take a look at roll crimping your shells using a drill press.  Enough shells can be had by dumpster diving to keep you well supplied.   Use them once and throw away without worrying about burn through around the crimp line.  You can duct tape a paint stir stick on a band saw close to the blade and eyeball sawing the old crimp off the shell.    Stir stick kind of levels up the shell to account for the rim of the shell. 

In addition, the rolled crimp stiffens the shell enough that they will work fine through pumps actions that can be a little picky about that leading edge of your shell.  Also puts a slight taper to the shell when done correctly.  The old rolled crimp is also more authentic looking from the  paper shells time period vs. star crimp. 

I too toss BP SG shells after a single loading.  Some crimps are too damaged by heat to hold reliably in a second loading.  For local matches I use Gun Club hulls.  For major matches I use STS hulls (that shuck better.)  I use whatever primers I have on hand.  During the previous primer shortage I could only buy Rio 209s so that is what I used for my BP shotgun shells.  

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15 hours ago, Grinnin Jim said:

I am starting to load shotgun which I know nothing about so any advice will be appreciated. I am planning on using APP 3F powder with used Red Winchester AA hulls. 3/4 ounce #8 shot and I mistakenly bought Clear Claybuster wads, does this matter or must I use a certain color???

 

Thanks In Advance

Grinnin Jim

It was good seeing you at Riverbend Saturday Jim!  What are you reloading shotgun with?

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I load 32 grains black max and 3/4 oz of shot and a claybuster CB0175-12 wad in  STS or AA hulls If i use STS i load them twice AA once.  and have never had a knock down not go down if I hit the crazy thing.  

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Grinnin Jim:

 

You may be lucky and have a shotgun that doesn’t care about which hulls you use.  Or you may be shooting a finicky SOB that only shucks one kind of hull easily.  You may shoot at clubs that require more oomph than my pet loads, or you may knock’em down with even lighter loads than suggested here.

 

You are going to have to experiment.  


Make up a variety of load combinations.  Ask your buddies for a few of their hulls and wads to play with, and keep a record of the results.  As long as you don’t leave an air gap between the top of the powder charge and wad/shot column, and as long as you can get a good flat tight crimp that prevents shot pellets from leaking out of the shell, you are going to be fine.

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:)  HA!! ;)

 

None of The Above ('cept J-BAR).   All Brass hulls is where it's at you betcha.  I like  35GR 3f APP, Ballistic Products Spitfire wad with 1 Ounce 7.5 shot and an overshot card.  Splendifierous.  Reload 'em forever. 

Edited by Colorado Coffinmaker
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I use a 1oz square load using 2f goex and 7.5 or #8 shot. For the most part I load using fiber wads. Powder first then nitro card followed by a fiber wad then the shot. Loading on my MEC jr AA hulls crimp fairly well. If I find that it crimps a bit deep I use some shredded paper to fill the difference. If I am feeling industrious then I roll crimp but cheat using a drill press. My dbl is not fussy about the hulls that I use. But my 87 does not care for paper hulls or the Magtech brass hulls I learned that the hard way at a match...was a real slow stage but learned what the gun did not like.. For plastic wads I use the CB-1138-12

 

 

Hochbauer

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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

:)  HA!! ;)

 

None of The Above ('cept J-BAR).   All Brass hulls is where it's at you betcha.  I like  35GR 3f APP, Ballistic Products Spitfire wad with 1 Ounce 7.5 shot and an overshot card.  Splendifierous.  Reload 'em forever. 

 

I would’ve suggested brassies but I know you can’t buy them anywhere right now.  Love mine, APP or BP it don’t matter to them.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It was good seeing you at Riverbend Saturday Jim!  What are you reloading shotgun with?

I am going to get some APP 3F! I think it will be a lot of fun! I had a great time at Riverbend, probably my favorite group! 

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1 minute ago, Grinnin Jim said:

I am going to get some APP 3F! I think it will be a lot of fun! I had a great time at Riverbend, probably my favorite group! 

 

Contact @Scarlett  Bullets by Scarlett  she’ll can send you a case of either APP or the new Shooter’s World BP sub.

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4 minutes ago, Grinnin Jim said:

I am going to get some APP 3F! I think it will be a lot of fun! I had a great time at Riverbend, probably my favorite group! 

Awesome!  What kind of reloader are you using?

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I scored a MEC650 and a Sizer yesterday for 3 pounds of Varget! I am setting it up now! I have to order a powder bushing for it! I am going to order a 42 since I have heard everything from a 40 to 43 so they only had a 42 in stock! 

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My BP shotshell loads are real BP just for fYI. I use AA or STS hulls, Chedite or Federal 209 primers and pink Winchester wads with 1oz of shot, I've been using 3.1cc of 3f powder which weight wise is about 47 grains. Haven't checked volume as I pour a couple 3.1 cc dippers on the scale and then adjust my powder measure for the same weight. Works well and minimal recoil. The KD's go down. This is my Plainsman load. Just made up some with an antique roll crimper in RIO hulls and they came out pretty nice. Just had to pick up shot off the floor every now and then when the overshot cards fell out as the roll crimper mounts horizontal!

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Tequila ^_^

 

The shortage is only temporary.  As soon as the folks at Magtec can get back to work, we'll have plenty of Brass Hulls again!!

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This book may be worth the few bucks for getting into brass shells:

 

IMG_0943.jpeg.f25be89a785ad6b5e34920f6a9123c81.jpeg

 

And on further edit, none of the recipes use APP so some experimentation will still be required. I'm real close to doing some hand loading, have almost everything for first fire.

Edited by John Kloehr
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51 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Tequila ^_^

 

The shortage is only temporary.  As soon as the folks at Magtec can get back to work, we'll have plenty of Brass Hulls again!!

 

Yea I know, like so many other things.  I was lucky I got mine before all this nonsense started.  Of course none of that matters to OP.

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I have an adjustable charge bar for my Mec Jr. ( actually several ) in 12 ga it throws 4.3 CC of Goex 3f and 1 3/16 oz . of 7 1/2 shot ...

For those special folks smart enough to have a SWEET 16 , I load 3.4 CC of Goex 3f and one oz of 7 1/2 shot ...

For 20 ga. I use 3 CC of Goex 3f  with 3/4 oz of 7 1/2  shot ...

The wad column whether plastic or fiber is adjusted for height to for a good crimp ... 

My 12 and 20 ga guns have hard chromed barrels so plastic is a non issue, in my 16s a couple of stokes with the brush and hot water and the plastic snot is gone ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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In 16 ga. Federal Hulls last twice as long as Remington and Winchester last twice as long as as Federal hulls ...

In 12 ga. Peters Blue magic, Winchester AA seem to last the best ... Browning Hulls work very well too..

In 20 ga. I like Winchester AA or Browning Hulls best ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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23 hours ago, Tequila Shooter said:

 

 

A basic rule for APP with SG loads is using a square load, ¾ oz APP (by weight) / ¾ oz of shot.  You may want to consider a heavier load you don’t want to KD’s stay up.  I’d go more like 1 - 1 ¼ oz.  but as SD said column height and a good crimp is very important.

That right there would make yer hair stand up straight fer a bit.

.

kR

Edited by Kid Rich
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