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twelve mile REB

Whats a weapon

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In another thread a reader didn’t like the use of the word weapon when referring to CAS type metal launchers.  While I didn’t really have a hard and fast opinion did wonder what was proper.  The following is from Random House’s 1991 Webster’s College Dictionary.

Weapon:  Any instrument or device used for attack or defense in a fight or in combat.  Anything used against an opponent, adversary or victim.

In CAS we are not defending anything, other than perhaps our dignity, and only a few actually attack a course of fire. CAS certainly isn’t combat unless you consider combating the elements.  In that case we are still stuck with metal launcher or some other descriptive term because nature has the real weapons.  Sentence two however has some real meat for us “opponent” and “adversary”.  We could also consider finishing second place or below to be the “victims” of a quicker weapon system.  Which by extension would mean we were all fielding weapons.  So weapon would certainly fit the definition during a match because anyone shooting in your category would be an opponent or adversary and perhaps victim.  So you would be shooting weapons by definition.  However, if you were the only one in your category would you have to go back to metal launcher?  This could be really confusing remembering when a launcher transforms into a weapon.  I think we could say we are using weapons during a match but do they change in regard to usage?  In my cart I have hunks of metal and wood but at the unloading table they transform into gleaming one hundred percent weapons?  Strange very Strange.  

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Way back when,  when I went through the NRA Pistol Instructiors class, we were told to avoid calling firearms "weapons " because of the scary, negative connotations connected with the word.

 

That aside, a weapon is anything from a stick to a nuclear weapon. 

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The latest generation that develops a mouth and an audience will always find a way to change the meanings of words to suit their preferences, prejudices, etc.

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Is automobile not one when parked?

Is a closet not one when it is empty? 

A hat when it's not on your head? 

Weapons is the broader category.  Then firearms, handgun, revolver, single action, caliber.

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Oy.

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51 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

A pencil is a weapon ;)

OLG

OLG,

      I second that!

 

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1 hour ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

I am pretty sure that when these weapons were originally designed, they were designed to kill.  Weapon is the correct term.

Man's earliest weapon was a rock.

 

Then he advanced to a club.

 

Finally to a knife.

 

But you do not go to Home Depot to buy a bag of weapons to fill your weapon garden.

 

You do not go to Academy Sports to buy a weapon for your son to take to the Little League game to hit the ball with.

 

And when you drop your utensil at the Sizzlin Steakhouse you do not ask your waitress to bring you another weapon so you can cut your steak.

 

Now I could pick up a rock and hit somebody upside the head. It would then be a weapon. I could take that baseball bat and hit somebody upside the head, and it would be a weapon. And I could take that steak knife and stab somebody in the belly, and that would make it a weapon.

 

But unless and until I hit somebody or cut somebody with the rock or the baseball bat or the steak knife they are not weapons. They are a rock and a baseball bat and a steak knife.

 

What they were originally designed as does not matter. What matters is what they are used as.

 

I have several guns. I shoot them at paper. I shoot them at steel. I shoot them at empty beverage cans. But I do not shoot them at people. They are not weapons. They are guns.

 

If the time ever comes that I need to shoot one of my guns at a person, it will then become a weapon. But only that gun.

 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Alpo said:

rock or the baseball bat or the steak knife

A rock was not designed by anybody except for God.

A baseball bat can be used as a weapon, but its primary purpose is to beat the hell out of a baseball.  So, I suppose from a Baseball's point of view, it is inherently a weapon.

A steak knife is designed to cut meat.  I propose that it is not inherently a weapon, but can be used as one, just as anything can be.

The 1873 Colt revolver, 1873 Winchester Rifle, Double Barrel shotguns as well as the 1897 pump action shotgun, and every other firearm used in CAS was designed primarily to kill, period.  Whether that be a Human enemy, Buffalo or Grouse, they are designed to kill.  There are firearms not designed to kill, of course (i.e. 22 short Olympic style pistols), but they are built based on designs that were designed to kill.

 

Firearms are weapons, plain and simple.  You may own one and not ever intend to use it as a weapon, but that does not change its basic nature.  Just as a man can be a vegan, but that doesn't change the fact that his basic nature by design is an omnivore, and he is physically designed to eat meat as well as vegetables.  

 

 

Edited by Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428
grammer again...
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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

A pencil is a weapon ;)

OLG

I knew a prison guard in California who was potentially the most dangerous person I ever met.  He once told me that he and a friend sat down and found over a hundred ways to kill or disable an attacker using a #2 lead pencil.

 

I never found any reason to dispute that.

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41 minutes ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said:

 

A steak knife is designed to cut meat. 

 

 

 

I would submit that the original knife was designed to cut to kill and therefore, extrapolating from your theory, all knives are weapons.

A baseball bat is a club.  The original club was designed to kill, therefore, all clubs are weapons.

etc., etc.

 

I respectfully disagree with your logic.  

 

Angus

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Guns are tools - until they become weapons.

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9 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

original knife was designed to cut to kill

 

I can see that point of view... but consider this.   The original knife was likely a chip of stone or if they were lucky obsidian.  That knife was not used to kill, it would have been used to cut up and skin animals that were killed using a spear, atl atl, arrows, club, rock, or some other form of killing game that didn't involve sneaking up on it, jumping on its back and stabbing it with a short knife.

 

Just my thoughts on it, despite my nephew's opinions I am actually NOT old enough to have been there. :D

 

 

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If you were at a Cowboy Action Shooting match and shooting at targets your firearms are just that, firearms. They could also be called guns or small arms and they could be referred to by their designations of rifle, shotgun, pistol (revolver).

But if the police show up while you are shooting and they want you to put your guns down more than likely you will hear the words “Put the weapon down and put your hands on your head” or something similar. 
So, a gun that is not a possible threat is a gun, small arm, firearm, etc...

If it may be or is a possible threat it is a weapon. 
 

There. 

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Posted (edited)

Of course they’re weapons but.......I’m afraid I have to opine that calling our guns weapons is not the best terminology when dealing with potential new CAS people. They are not all familiar with firearms. And while a rose by any other name makes no difference, the use of weapon tends to make some good people uneasy. And I’m not just talking about left wing snowflakes but good solid citizens, and there are millions,  who have never been exposed to the reality of firearms. So my cowboy irons are all guns. That’s how I refer to them. It took a while to get used to and flies in the face of my military and police training. I know SFC Garz would put a Corcoran up my butt for doing it.
;)

6B0F118B-6B67-4D55-AD57-D922A5B4A6BC.jpeg

Edited by Utah Bob #35998
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Alpo, come on. That knife or rock becomes a weapon at the moment someone threatens to harm you with it.  Are you seriously going to wait to be stabbed before defending yourself? 

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30 minutes ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

BROWN jump boots , that was before my time 

 

  CB 

 

they are coming back with the new pinks and greens uniform the Army is now issuing 

 

DpKRs9HU4AAcKJp.jpg

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1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Of course they’re weapons but.......I’m afraid I have to opine that calling our guns weapons is not the best terminology when dealing with potential new CAS people. They are not all familiar with firearms. And while a rose by any other name makes no difference, the use of weapon tends to make some good people uneasy. And I’m not just talking about left wing snowflakes but good solid citizens, and there are millions,  who have never been exposed to the reality of firearms. So my cowboy irons are all guns. That’s how I refer to them. It took a while to get used to and flies in the face of my military and police training. SFC Garz would put a Corcoran up my butt for doing it I know.
 

 

 

Well said, sir. That was pretty much the reasoning given in the NRA instructors class I mentioned above. 
Although the guy teaching the class never corrected the Gunny that was taking the course when he called all the firearms "weapons."  

 

"So my cowboy irons are all guns. "

Parrott? Ordnance Rifle?  James Rifle?  Whitworth? 

 



 

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Anything can be a weapon that is true but a firearm of any kind is a weapon period! A knife, baseball bat, lead pipe, ice pick etc all have other uses but a firearm is a weapon period! That's my two cents!;)

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Back in the day when we chiseled our school essays onto stone tablets I was friends with a young man who was a bit "slow". He had an artists eye for wood working and was truly gifted in using the tools of the trade to make beautiful furniture, accessories, knick knacks etc. He was more than willing to teach others (like myself) who did not share his gifts but was quite often picked on (what we now call bullying) pretty much everyday by a certain group. One day he had had enough and fought back using the wood shop tape measure as a tool and opened up a 4 inch gash in his antagonists throat. He missed the carotid and the esophagus by less than 1/4" and the bully survived. He was charged with assault with a deadly weapon and as he was only fifteen was sentenced to 3 years in juvenile, a punishment that the bullies parents contested for quite some time. (they obviously wanted a stiffer sentence for the "unprovoked" attack on their darling child)

So given that tape measures were not intended as "weapons" yet the law saw a tape measure as a "weapon" I am convinced it is the use that makes an object a "weapon" not its design.

YMMV

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

 

Well said, sir. That was pretty much the reasoning given in the NRA instructors class I mentioned above. 
Although the guy teaching the class never corrected the Gunny that was taking the course when he called all the firearms "weapons."  

 

"So my cowboy irons are all guns. "

Parrott? Ordnance Rifle?  James Rifle?  Whitworth? 

 



 

And the 200 pdr Columbiad. 

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1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Anything can be a weapon that is true but a firearm of any kind is a weapon period! A knife, baseball bat, lead pipe, ice pick etc all have other uses but a firearm is a weapon period! That's my two cents!;)

bull.  None of my guns are inherently weapons.  hey are target punchers which can be used as weapons.

 

Only three have been used to harvest game and only has been used to shoot a human.  That was all back about 1964 and they have returned to being target punchers.

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47 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

And the 200 pdr Columbiad. 

 

I want to see your saddle scabbard for that!
 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 said:

 

I had to Google that one UB....

 

 

 

LL

1510_BRN_L.jpg

Next o my chair right now. :lol:

 

7B7A3E6A-5DBE-48C9-B714-89D4A4579FD8.jpeg

Edited by Utah Bob #35998

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For SHAME!!!

 

The toes are scuffed. :P

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in my youth the mob liked the ice pick , i still have a 50s vintage ice pick , i use it for ice , 

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