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OK boys, here's what happened.  Two shotgun targets.  Shooter engaged first shotgun target and it didn't fall.  While engaging second target, the first target fell.  TO thought the first target was missed completely.  Shooter thought it was slowly falling and when it went down, he continued the stage.  TO brought shooter back and made him "shoot where it was".

 

Was that the correct call, or should the shooter be given the benefit of the doubt?

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Posted (edited)

TO goofed, two shots, two shotgun targets down. Reshoot should have been given after that mess up.

Edited by John Barleycorn, SASS #76982
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No way was that correct ....

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Calling the shooter back when both shotgun targets were down, or IN THE PROCESS of falling down, would be a TO error that materially hindered the shooter.  A reshoot should be offered by the TO and supported by other officials.   Up to the shooter to accept the stage score as recorded from the first run, or to discard the score and do a re-shoot.

 

If one or both shotgun target(s) were still standing when the first round from the next gun was fired, then the target was a MISS and could no longer be made up (since next gun was the active gun).  If TO called shooter back at that point, that would be a TO hindrance error, too.

 

Good luck, GJ

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14 minutes ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

OK boys, here's what happened.  Two shotgun targets.  Shooter engaged first shotgun target and it didn't fall.  While engaging second target, the first target fell.  TO thought the first target was missed completely.  Shooter thought it was slowly falling and when it went down, he continued the stage.  TO brought shooter back and made him "shoot where it was".

 

Was that the correct call, or should the shooter be given the benefit of the doubt?

Oh good lord...that's a stoopid call. Two shots taken, two targets down.

 

Next shooter!

 

PS: Take the timer away from that TO and tell him/her to pick brass.

 

Phantom

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It don't matter if the wind blew it down.ITs down if he fired 2 rounds.

                                                                                                                                         Largo

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1 hour ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

OK boys, here's what happened.  Two shotgun targets.  Shooter engaged first shotgun target and it didn't fall.  While engaging second target, the first target fell.  TO thought the first target was missed completely.  Shooter thought it was slowly falling and when it went down, he continued the stage.  TO brought shooter back and made him "shoot where it was".

 

Was that the correct call, or should the shooter be given the benefit of the doubt?

 

I ain't speaking for PWB, but I can imagine he is saying....... "Where was the doubt"?.

 

Two targets up, 2 shots fired, and 2 targets down.

TO made wrong call.

 

Heck, I was shooting a 6 KD stage once and #4 didn't fall immediately.   When I finished #6, I looked over and #4 was

falling, although some spotters were hollering... "UP".    But it fell and all ended well.

 

..........Widder

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

If one or both shotgun target(s) were still standing when the first round from the next gun was fired, then the target was a MISS and could no longer be made up (since next gun was the active gun).  If TO called shooter back at that point, that would be a TO hindrance error, too.

 

Good luck, GJ

Hate to be "that" guy...

But a reactive target left standing is not a miss until the stage is complete.

 

Has zero to do with the next gun or active gun or whatever.

If the shooter discharges two shotgun rounds AND at the stage END - two targets are down - there are no misses.

Doesn't matter when (or why) they happen to fall. 

It could be a delayed reaction, an earthquake, a strong wind or the earths magnetic pull - IF they're down - benefit of the doubt always goes to the shooter.

 

I know I'm being pedantic - but on a reactive target - it ain't over until it's over.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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Quote

Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss.

SHB p.14

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7 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB p.14

I stand corrected. 

This is the first time I've been wrong in...

minutes.

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It wasn't easy but I hit the delete button. 

Hells Comin 

 

 

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5 hours ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

OK boys, here's what happened.  Two shotgun targets.  Shooter engaged first shotgun target and it didn't fall.  While engaging second target, the first target fell.  TO thought the first target was missed completely.  Shooter thought it was slowly falling and when it went down, he continued the stage.  TO brought shooter back and made him "shoot where it was".

 

Was that the correct call, or should the shooter be given the benefit of the doubt?

 

2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

SHB p.14

 

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L the targets were both down before the next sequence was engaged.  Do you think the benefit of doubt should have been given to the shooter? 

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If the SG targets were "any order" to engage then it's clear (two shots, two KDs down), but if there was an order to engage the targets (not evident in the OP) one could claim a P if the second KD falls before the first... :ph34r:  (not that I would agree with that)

And if someone points to the "engaging a target" aspect: A no-choke 18.25" barrel shotgun with the right ammo can "engage" quite an area, that's what shotguns were made for...

 

Equanimous Phil

 

P.S.: Depending on the order to engage and depending on your shot pattern and target distance, you could also engage multple targets with one shot, but you have to shoot the number of required shots at the end. I remember someone posting a stage a while ago with something like 6 SG targets in a special array to engage with 4+

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13 minutes ago, Equanimous Phil said:

If the SG targets were "any order" to engage then it's clear (two shots, two KDs down), but if there was an order to engage the targets (not evident in the OP) one could claim a P if the second KD falls before the first... :ph34r:  (not that I would agree with that)

And if someone points to the "engaging a target" aspect: A no-choke 18.25" barrel shotgun with the right ammo can "engage" quite an area, that's what shotguns were made for...

 

Equanimous Phil

 

P.S.: Depending on the order to engage and depending on your shot pattern and target distance, you could also engage multple targets with one shot, but you have to shoot the number of required shots at the end. I remember someone posting a stage a while ago with something like 6 SG targets in a special array to engage with 4+

 

Mate if I was you I would delete this post before the Phantom wakes up and replies, he can get a little tetchy first thing before his morning coffee:D

 

I think you may be over thinking this one a tad.

 

Two targets, two shots, two targets down- Nothing to see here.

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7 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Oh good lord...that's a stoopid call. Two shots taken, two targets down.

 

Next shooter!

 

PS: Take the timer away from that TO and tell him/her to pick brass.

 

Phantom

 

 

 

This.

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Obviously, more information is required to make the correct call in the OP situation.

@JohnWesleyHardin, please provide:

Shooter’s category and S.A.S.S. badge number.

Height, width, & weight of the targets.

Height, width, weight, age, & gender identity of the shooter.

Height, width, weight, age, & gender identity of the timer operator.

Target distance from the shooter, as well as spacing between targets.

Model, barrel length, gauge, and choke of the shotgun used.

Factory or reloaded ammunition?

Powder, wad, shot size, hull, & fps specifications.

Date, time of day (GMT), and location coordinates.

Weather conditions.

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18 minutes ago, Major Crimes said:

Mate if I was you I would delete this post before the Phantom wakes up and replies, he can get a little tetchy first thing before his morning coffee:D

 

I'll take the risk and will bear the consequences :D

 

18 minutes ago, Major Crimes said:

I think you may be over thinking this one a tad.

 

Yes, probably! Tend to get theoretical sometimes :blush:

 

18 minutes ago, Major Crimes said:

Two targets, two shots, two targets down- Nothing to see here.

 

Basically agree!

 

And don't wanna be too nitpicking, but interposed (serious) question: Do other clubs have engaging orders for SG targets sometimes or is it always "any order"? Because we do have sometimes a specific order, and sometimes for example something like two targets 2 yards further than the others and you have to engage the front targets first, so you have to watch where you shoot from and where you aim to avoid hitting the back targets first, because that would be a P.

 

_O______O______

_____O_______O_

 

And yes, sometimes some targets fall slower than others, but that's not an issue

 

Equanimous

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Sounds like some of your clubs are into P traps.

Yes at some shoots here in Aust they specify SG targets but its usually as simple as from the left/right or outer then inner, or vice versa. Yet I still seem to be able to bugger that up:blush:

I have never seen the like of your description apart from one shoot where they were laid out in depth but it was any order so didnt matter.

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2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Obviously, more information is required to make the correct call in the OP situation.

@JohnWesleyHardin, please provide:

Shooter’s category and S.A.S.S. badge number.

Height, width, & weight of the targets.

Height, width, weight, age, & gender identity of the shooter.

Height, width, weight, age, & gender identity of the timer operator.

Target distance from the shooter, as well as spacing between targets.

Model, barrel length, gauge, and choke of the shotgun used.

Factory or reloaded ammunition?

Powder, wad, shot size, hull, & fps specifications.

Date, time of day (GMT), and location coordinates.

Weather conditions.

How old are the targets?

Are they reset with a rope, a chain, or going downrange and manually pulling them up?

When was the last time they were painted?

When was the last time the hinge was cleaned of splatter?

Are the targets set directly on the ground or elevated on a platform?

Was the TO able to count to two?

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3 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Obviously, more information is required to make the correct call in the OP situation.

@JohnWesleyHardin, please provide:

Shooter’s category and S.A.S.S. badge number.

Height, width, & weight of the targets.

Height, width, weight, age, & gender identity of the shooter.

Height, width, weight, age, & gender identity of the timer operator.

Target distance from the shooter, as well as spacing between targets.

Model, barrel length, gauge, and choke of the shotgun used.

Factory or reloaded ammunition?

Powder, wad, shot size, hull, & fps specifications.

Date, time of day (GMT), and location coordinates.

Weather conditions.

 

You forgot:   'How hard did the shooter pull the trigger'?

;)

 

..........Widder

 

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3 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Obviously, more information is required to make the correct call in the OP situation.

@JohnWesleyHardin, please provide:

Shooter’s category and S.A.S.S. badge number.

Height, width, & weight of the targets.

Height, width, weight, age, & gender identity of the shooter.

Height, width, weight, age, & gender identity of the timer operator.

Target distance from the shooter, as well as spacing between targets.

Model, barrel length, gauge, and choke of the shotgun used.

Factory or reloaded ammunition?

Powder, wad, shot size, hull, & fps specifications.

Date, time of day (GMT), and location coordinates.

Weather conditions.

PWB, we can't possibly know the correct call without first also knowing which reloader the shooter reloaded the suspect shotshells on. 

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Well crap. Widder and Goody both beat me to it.

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4 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

 

And if someone points to the "engaging a target" aspect: A no-choke 18.25" barrel shotgun with the right ammo can "engage" quite an area, that's what shotguns were made for...

 

Equanimous 

Screenshot_20200714-085548_Office.thumb.jpg.326e84b8ee09dd0bb751b9cec056d1a3.jpg

I think this is what Phantom would have the most fun with.;)

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, JohnWesleyHardin said:

Was that the correct call, or should the shooter be given the benefit of the doubt?

"TO thought the first target was missed completely"  

If you "think" it's a miss, it's a hit. 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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There was no doubt about the status of the shotgun targets.   Both down.   Shooter should not NEED benefit of any doubt.  Just a TO mistake.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Shooters and Spotters ...
 

Shamrock Sadie to The Doily Gang
"Take it easy on your Timer Operator (TO). I frequently see WTC posts on the SASS Wire and on FB where folks are asking ‘where was the TO” or “time to get a new TO” when they make a mistake. Remember that folks haven’t been shooting for a while due to the COVID virus. Guess what; that means the TOs haven’t been getting timer practice either. Knot and I are just now getting back into shooting more matches, even though there isn’t a vaccine yet. So we are a little rusty and trying to get back into the groove of posse responsibilities.


In the past, I’ve heard (right straight from their own mouths) some shooters tell the Match Director (MD) not to choose certain people as the TO or PM, because they have seen them simply make a mistake or two before (not for other reasons, but because they have made a mistake). Well guess what, that means you won’t have anyone to time the shooters or be Posse Marshals, because every TO and PM is going to make a mistake.


At the shoot I was at this weekend, I had made a mistake as a TO, by telling the shooter the wrong gun to start with (very first stage and first shooter). He almost got a P, but came up to me after unloading his guns and discussed it with me. He handled the situation very well by not getting outwardly upset about it, he unloaded his guns and talked about it with his family, then came over to me and discussed what happened. It dawned on me that in fact I did give him the wrong instructions for which firearm to start with, so I gave him a reshoot. The spotters handled it very well too. I love “the cowboy way” attitude that most SASS shooters have. I was frustrated with myself that I told him the wrong instructions (because I care about doing the right thing), as I hadn’t yet gotten my act together to start up the posse on the first stage. So every stage after that (with getting acknowledgment back from the awesome spotters on the posse), I repeated back what the scenario starting position was and the gun order before I started the first shooter.


So keep in mind during this time that the TOs are probably a little rusty on focusing on what they need to do at the line."

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DDD,

 

I hope you're perfect and never make a mistake.  Most of us occasionally make one and rectify it. 

 

Shamrock Sadie is a great example of someone who has put a ton of effort into the sport, is well respected,  and can say, "I didn't do that right" and, in being fair to the shooter, makes a reshoot call.  If someone timing me makes a mistake, that's all I ask for. 

 

People are human, and TO's typically don't have to do the hardest job on the range.  They do it because they love and respect the sport.  

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12 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

DDD,

 

I hope you're perfect and never make a mistake.  Most of us occasionally make one and rectify it. 

 

Shamrock Sadie is a great example of someone who has put a ton of effort into the sport, is well respected,  and can say, "I didn't do that right" and, in being fair to the shooter, makes a reshoot call.  If someone timing me makes a mistake, that's all I ask for. 

 

People are human, and TO's typically don't have to do the hardest job on the range.  They do it because they love and respect the sport.  

Well god knows (as do a bunch of shooters), that I make a lot of mistakes as a TO...heat of the moment and all.

 

But why would a T.O MAKE a shooter go back and shoot where a target was?  I can see him/her saying "UP" or "AGAIN" and being wrong...but that's about it. 

 

And IF the shooter had already shot another gun, then the whole situation becomes even more bizarre.

 

Sure would like to hear more about this as I'm truly baffled as to what went on.

 

Phantom

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What I've seen happen lately is matches being sparsely attended due to COVID worries, and the brutally hot weather, with just 5-7 shooters.  There will be one or maybe two experienced shooters.  The rest, newer shooters, or shooters who have never taken an R.O. class.  The experienced shooter is loading, and the timer is handed off to whoever is willing to take the timer.   Maybe, if they are lucky, there will be three spotters.   Sometimes, not enough to do that.  The T.O. at the time has at best, only a passing familiarity of many  of the rules.  I wouldn't really even call them a match, more of a practice session with a timer.  "Stuff" will happen in these situations.  Nothing in the original post says how large a match this was, if the T.O. had attended R.O. classes, or any real details.  Just a question about "benefit of the doubt."   There isn't a benefit of the doubt, there's a right way or a wrong way.  The T.O. did not know the right way, or became confused.

 

Rather than humiliate this T.O., who may read this thread and never come back again, let's wait for the O.P to give us some more information, should he choose to.  Let's not harangue people out of the game.

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Was told early on that there are two kinds of TO/RO's....

Those who have made a mistake

Those who are going to make a mistake

The good ones cowboy up and fix their mistake (multiple ways to do that) or explains the rule to the shooter in a manner that educates and informs without demeaning or embarrassing.

They then go on to improve themselves to avoid that mistake in the future

Been grateful over the years to have WAYYYYY more of the good ones than the other.

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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33 minutes ago, McCandless said:

What I've seen happen lately is matches being sparsely attended due to COVID worries, and the brutally hot weather, with just 5-7 shooters.  There will be one or maybe two experienced shooters.  The rest, newer shooters, or shooters who have never taken an R.O. class.  The experienced shooter is loading, and the timer is handed off to whoever is willing to take the timer.   Maybe, if they are lucky, there will be three spotters.   Sometimes, not enough to do that.  The T.O. at the time has at best, only a passing familiarity of many  of the rules.  I wouldn't really even call them a match, more of a practice session with a timer.  "Stuff" will happen in these situations.  Nothing in the original post says how large a match this was, if the T.O. had attended R.O. classes, or any real details.  Just a question about "benefit of the doubt."   There isn't a benefit of the doubt, there's a right way or a wrong way.  The T.O. did not know the right way, or became confused.

 

Rather than humiliate this T.O., who may read this thread and never come back again, let's wait for the O.P to give us some more information, should he choose to.  Let's not harangue people out of the game.

There's no humiliation here as the T.O. is unknown... And should stay that way!

 

And if this discussion is read by him/her, hopefully they'll be motivated to improve. If they are motivated to quit, then that's on them and the blame rests on their own shoulders.

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...and was this detailed information covered in the Steele dossier, and presented to the FISA court?

the Russians caused that first plate to fall.....

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The “rest of the story” (via PM from the Timer Operator) - edited

 

Quote

 

“Here is what happened:

The shooter missed the first target completely. 

He then engaged the second target. 

When it fell, it rocked the targets (our design is two connected targets) and it "knocked" the first one down.

I thought he should reengage the target since he missed it the first time.  He is fast so he was headed to the next gun.

I didn't make him come back and shoot the SG target. 

After I hollered at him and broke his concentration I said, "Let's just reshoot it as I might be wrong on this" and he went to the ULT.

I called him back. I ended up giving him a reshoot.

 

 

END of STORY

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