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WHAT'S THE CALL??


Reverend Ledslinga

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Pistol string of a stage was a 1 4 4 1 sweep. Not gunfighter.  First pistol good, 2nd pistol, first shot a squib where the bullet did not leave the barrel. Shooter was too quick or just decided to continue shooting. Fired the next three rounds all on target #3 and fifth and final single shot good on target #4. Whats the call?  Obviously, it is simply impossible for that first bullet (lodged in the barrel) and the second round not to hit the target together pretty much as one double hit shall we say. Not sure this is covered in the rule book. Now, and this is covered. The TO did say "stop" but like I said earlier the shooter did not even hesitate in trying to quad tap that #3 target. Interested to hear what the ruling should have been. 

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A game person flirts with danger when deciding to keep firing with a squib up the barrel.

If the TO said 'Stop then  his enforcement of such must have been non existent for the shooter to keep going !!

At the end he is clean.

What did the spotters say & what was the final call ?

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I was a spotter. 2 of us initially said 1 miss, the third spotter clean. Then I instantly thought about and changed my call because it was impossible for that first and second bullet not to hit the target, The third spotter agreed and we all called him clean.

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I hear what your saying Mohawk but this was a fast and experienced shooter and was on a roll and probably not used to having many squibs over the years. Also take you point Spindrifter and it truly is possible he just didnt hear the call. Like I said there was no hesitation what so ever in pulling that trigger for number 2

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This is where the race for time becomes unsafe. Firing a second shot after a squib puts everyone close to the shooter in serious jeopardy. Safety is first and a SDQ would seem to be the only safe call. If we start to encourage firing after a squib we have lost the Spirit of the Game. Just my opinion. The only mention of a squib in the SHB: In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm. If the barrel is later
determined to be clear, the shooter will receive a reshoot.
So nothing is said about a squib in the second firearm, but if you are firing so fast you cannot stop for a squib or the TO's "STOP" SHB Page 18, then you are firing beyond your own Safety Envelope and putting others at risk. The TO was able to hear and respond properly to the squib. My responsibility as a shooter is to listen for any commands from the TO.

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1 hour ago, Russ The Red said:

This is where the race for time becomes unsafe. Firing a second shot after a squib puts everyone close to the shooter in serious jeopardy. Safety is first and a SDQ would seem to be the only safe call. If we start to encourage firing after a squib we have lost the Spirit of the Game. Just my opinion. The only mention of a squib in the SHB: In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm. If the barrel is later
determined to be clear, the shooter will receive a reshoot.
So nothing is said about a squib in the second firearm, but if you are firing so fast you cannot stop for a squib or the TO's "STOP" SHB Page 18, then you are firing beyond your own Safety Envelope and putting others at risk. The TO was able to hear and respond properly to the squib. My responsibility as a shooter is to listen for any commands from the TO.

The SHB (P18) says MDQ for not stopping not a SDQ

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Just a couple questions:

 

1. If the shooter is 'that fast', how did anyone know if the bullet of the 'squib' actually stuck in the barrel?

 

2.   Did any of the spotters actually see a 'Miss'?

 

As for the shooter not obeying the TO's command, I'll let the TO and the shooter hash that out.

 

..........Widder

 

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     It's a miss. Any unfired rounds are misses. A squib in fact is an unfired round. Using a different scenario if the stage called for two sweeps on 5 targets and the shooter ended up putting 2 bullets on one target would you want to give them a procedural. Also firing multi projectile ammo from a rifle or pistol is illegal and would warrant a SDQ.  This came up at Bordertown last year and Blackjack Zak and I were the Match R O s . We determined the shooter did not disregard a command to stop. ( shooter got the shot off before T O could say anything ) Everyone was positive there was a squib ( even the shooter). Call was a miss.

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I see where Widder is going and I'm following him. Plus, if he was a "fast" shooter there may have been .15 - .2 seconds to react, think and then make a verbal call for the RO. 

 

Then you have to wonder if the shooter heard that command.....many are hard of hearing or are too focused if the command isn't super loud. If so did the RO say it they hear it and still be able to stop in .15 -.2 seconds. So we are assuming a lot. 

 

I get the safety issue for sure but it' sure is a lot easier during the week on line when you have unlimited time. 

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14 minutes ago, LASSITER#2080 said:

     It's a miss. Any unfired rounds are misses. A squib in fact is an unfired round. Using a different scenario if the stage called for two sweeps on 5 targets and the shooter ended up putting 2 bullets on one target would you want to give them a procedural. Also firing multi projectile ammo from a rifle or pistol is illegal and would warrant a SDQ.  This came up at Bordertown last year and Blackjack Zak and I were the Match R O s . We determined the shooter did not disregard a command to stop. ( shooter got the shot off before T O could say anything ) Everyone was positive there was a squib ( even the shooter). Call was a miss.

+ 10000

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As others have said SHB page 18 addresses this.

“Cease Fire” or “STOP!” – The command called out by the CRO/TO or any witnessing Range Officer/Match Official at any time an unsafe condition develops. The shooter must stop shooting and stop moving immediately. Willful failure to comply to a Cease Fire or Stop command given by, and while under the control of the CRO/TO will result in a Match Disqualification penalty assessment.

 

I think that this call is up to the TO. If he believes the shooter heard his 'Stop!' command and willfully continued then the call is a MDQ.  If the TO believes the shooter did not hear his command then I believe the correct call would be a miss.

 

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Whoa slow down just because some one heard a pffft and can not possibly say it was a squib does not mean it stayed in the barrel and if you did not see a miss then it is a hit no other means matter, plus the fact that not every one has fantastic hearing when they shoot and  especially someone who is a fast shooter with guns that have been short stroked and whatever. Think about it pilgrims too many thinkers is a hit. Plus the fact all rounds fired.

 

The call goes to the shooter with a fast time and a clean stage.

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Reverend Ledslinga said:

I was a spotter. 2 of us initially said 1 miss, the third spotter clean. Then I instantly thought about and changed my call because it was impossible for that first and second bullet not to hit the target, The third spotter agreed and we all called him clean.

 

 

Then, that's the call.  

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Definition of “squib”. Less than normal pressure.  Therefore it fired.    Definition of misfire. No fire at all.    A squib is not a “given” as a miss

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The miss, squib or whatever is inconsequential. Did the R.O. call a stop that he believes the shooter heard and continued anyway?

If the R.O. says yes to this, no matter the squib, miss or ??, the call is MDQ. The R.O. has the safety of, not only the shooter, but the other participants in close proximity PLUS himself to consider. When a cease-fire is called, it must be obeyed immediately, sort it out later.

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11 hours ago, Reverend Ledslinga said:

I hear what your saying Mohawk but this was a fast and experienced shooter and was on a roll and probably not used to having many squibs over the years. Also take you point Spindrifter and it truly is possible he just didnt hear the call. Like I said there was no hesitation what so ever in pulling that trigger for number 2

Well Hell! That's good enough reason for just letting him do what he wants.

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Tough call. if RO called for a stop, he likely should have enforced it. i'm sure by the time he repeated it the squib was cleared tho. 

 

While I want to say clean, there is also the multiple projectile rule. I'm interested in what the official ruling is here. 

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Well I tell you pilgrim, it sounds like this is going  to carry over for couple, three more pages. Waaah,Haw !

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Again; Can any one really say & prove this was definitely a squib?  That's the real question.

 

Sure a squib is a miss unless of course it leaves the gun. Can't be a squib if in fact it leaves the gun and hits the target.

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32 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Tough call. if RO called for a stop, he likely should have enforced it. i'm sure by the time he repeated it the squib was cleared tho. 

 

While I want to say clean, there is also the multiple projectile rule. I'm interested in what the official ruling is here. 

 

Just to clarify, the rule is against "multiple projectile bullets" this wasn't. 

 

- Must be of “single projectile” design. “Multiple projectile” bullets are illegal. (Shooters Handbook Revolver and Rifle Ammunition pg. 26)

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Same scenario, only make the sequence a continuous Nevada sweep. Will that add to your confusion, since two bullets might have hit the same target. OR do you want to charge the shooter for shooting out of category for firing two rounds at once?

If it had been the fifth round out of the gun you would have known if it was a squib. (But it never is)

 

 

 

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The TO ordered the shooter to stop due to a squib.  The shooter didn't hear the command or was too fast and already sent the next round(s) downrange.  Willful disobedience to the TO's command might be difficult to justify.

 

The fact the squib came out of the barrel in front of the next round and hit the target is not relevant as the TO had already made the squib call and a fired shot must make it to the target under its own power.

 

1 miss

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54 minutes ago, Ya Big Tree said:

 

Just to clarify, the rule is against "multiple projectile bullets" this wasn't. 

 

- Must be of “single projectile” design. “Multiple projectile” bullets are illegal. (Shooters Handbook Revolver and Rifle Ammunition pg. 26)

I think you are correct. Probably not a multiple projectile bullet. I’m having a hard time to justify clean, but also applying a penalty from the rule book.  Hate to go mdq for not following stop command, but may have to. 

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So this is what transpired on this stage.  The shooter shot the first pistol at a single knockdown target for one round, then dumped the remaining four rounds on a stationary target.  The second pistol was drawn and the first round was at a stationary target.  I was the TO and when this round went off it sounded like a squib.  As the TO I immediately said stop.  The shooter is a little hard of hearing and I know without a doubt the command was given loud enough since all the spotters and posse around heard my command. 

 

My job as a TO is to watch the gun handling not the targets.  As the TO operator even though I gave the command and the shooter continued with the string I couldn't tell whether the bullet hit the target.  It is possible the bullet hit the target or it's possible the second round pushed the squib out as the shooter continued the string on the final target meaning he shot it out of order putting the incorrect amount of rounds on the final target. 

 

Whether the shooter did or didn't hear the command he took it upon himself to continue the string.

 

In my opinion if we don't know which target the bullet actually hit because we either didn't see the hit or don't know which target the bullet actually hit the advantage should go to the shooter and in this case it did.    

 

Lead Finger

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If you are confident you gave the stop command loud enough, and you think the shooter chose to continue anyway, then it’s MDQ. 

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I am confident the stop command was loud enough since the spotters heard it and the posse in the adjacent area heard the command.  I am not confident enough to say the shooter heard the command since I know he has hearing issues.

 

So I cant say the shooter disobeyed the command and continued shooting.

 

This is why my opinion is the advantage should go to the shooter.

 

Lead Finger

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2 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

The TO ordered the shooter to stop due to a squib.  The shooter didn't hear the command or was too fast and already sent the next round(s) downrange.  Willful disobedience to the TO's command might be difficult to justify.

 

The fact the squib came out of the barrel in front of the next round and hit the target is not relevant as the TO had already made the squib call and a fired shot must make it to the target under its own power.

 

1 miss

What target did he miss?

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15 minutes ago, Leadfinger said:

I am confident the stop command was loud enough since the spotters heard it and the posse in the adjacent area heard the command.  I am not confident enough to say the shooter heard the command since I know he has hearing issues.

 

So I cant say the shooter disobeyed the command and continued shooting.

 

This is why my opinion is the advantage should go to the shooter.

 

Lead Finger

Hey Leadfinger, 

 

Been there myself.  Taint easy.  Yet,  you and the counters did the right process and arrived at a final verdict for that particular situation.  Done deal and no one hurt , move to next shooter.  Job well done. 

 

You or others can ask questions afterwards and maybe get clarifications by higher sources.   If it had been a major match, you would have gone to the Match Director or Top Range Officer. 

 

Good information and thanks!

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It’s not an easy answer for sure! 

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