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WHAT'S THE CALL??


Reverend Ledslinga

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2 minutes ago, Jackrabbit Joe #414 said:

Some folks reading between the lines.

 

No squib found and maybe that sound pffft was just quite not enough powder behind the bullet. No squib found in barrel.

 

No misses found shooter cleaned the stage. Three spotters after conversing stated clean.

 

P.S.  Prove it was a squib pilgrims.. A squib is  when it is lodged in the barrel of the firearm. Then it is counted as a miss. On top of that prove it did not hit the target.

 

Merry Christmas to all.

 

As always;

Jackrabbit Joe #414

 

 

Yes^

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

Thats not what a squib is. 

When there is a pop, no discharge or slug exiting the barrel to strike steel or the dirt, it is a squib.  

 

The issue here is the shooter continued to fire, clearing the barrel of the obstruction.  He and the range officers were lucky, this time.

 

My call would remain 1 miss.  That's why there are three counters and a TO.

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15 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

When there is a pop, no discharge or slug exiting the barrel to strike steel or the dirt, it is a squib.  

 

The issue here is the shooter continued to fire, clearing the barrel of the obstruction.  He and the range officers were lucky, this time.

 

My call would remain 1 miss.  That's why there are three counters and a TO.

My posted definition remains. A lower than normal discharge sound does not constitute a squib. You not hearing the bullet strike steel does not constitute a squib (ever shoot a dead target?) 

My point about the squib is nobody on the face of the earth can say it was a squib. They can say it was a light round that couldve possibly been a squib, but they cant say it was a squib.

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1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

My posted definition remains. A lower than normal discharge sound does not constitute a squib. You not hearing the bullet strike steel does not constitute a squib (ever shoot a dead target?) 

My point about the squib is nobody on the face of the earth can say it was a squib. They can say it was a light round that couldve possibly been a squib, but they cant say it was a squib.

I rely on seeing and counting the target strikes, not hearing them as you infer.  Hearing the targets being hit is reserved for black powder shooters. 

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7 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

I rely on seeing and counting the target strikes, not hearing them as you infer.  Hearing the targets being hit is reserved for black powder shooters. 

Different apotting criteria for different categories. Interesting. 

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2 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Different apotting criteria for different categories. Interesting. 

Not at all.  If you can't see the targets due to thick smoke, you have to adapt with an added layer to count by.  

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2 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Squib=Miss

It doesn't matter what happened to the first slug.  

Where do you get that in the context of this situation? 

 

The second shot pushed the first shot out of the barrel...

 

Are you making up rules that don't exist?

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Where do you get that in the context of this situation? 

 

The second shot pushed the first shot out of the barrel...

 

Are you making up rules that don't exist?

 

 

So you have a squib with the first round, fail to stop when given a ceasefire command, and expect a clean stage when no one knows where the first round went?  Come on Phantom, this isn't that difficult to figure out.

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9 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

So you have a squib with the first round, fail to stop when given a ceasefire command, and expect a clean stage when no one knows where the first round went?  Come on Phantom, this isn't that difficult to figure out.

Assumed squib.

 

He obviously didn't hear the command and no we're not gonna be goofy and ban deaf people. Someone wants to go tell a veteran that lost their hearing defending this country they can't shoot taking a chance at visiting the woodshed.

 

Thats the point. No one knows where the round went. Why is it an asumed miss? Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Clean, next shooter please.

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17 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Assumed squib.

 

He obviously didn't hear the command and no we're not gonna be goofy and ban deaf people. Someone wants to go tell a veteran that lost their hearing defending this country they can't shoot taking a chance at visiting the woodshed.

 

Thats the point. No one knows where the round went. Why is it an asumed miss? Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter. Clean, next shooter please.

I have no problem with giving the shooter the benefit of the doubt he didn't hear the ceasefire command because it happens.

 

I do have an issue with calling a stage clean if I believe there was a squib and can honestly state I did not see a hit on target.  The fact he continued to fire simply muddies the water since the next round cleared the barrel.  

 

I guess this is a case where we are on opposite sides of the stage.  I understand where some folks are coming from, I just can't raise my hand to go along.

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If a spotter must see a miss to be a miss, then all squibs where the bullet does not leave the barrel and are pushed out by the next shot must be a hit.  That does not make sense. If you cannot see miss due to grass or other vegetation how would you ever call a miss.  Like Lassiter said, it must be counted as a miss.   Even if both bullets hit the correct target on the follow up shot,  how could a squib be considered legal ammo?  

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Also how could the squib bullet leaving the barrel on the next shot be a procedural even if it was a sweep.  It would be a miss on the squib if it didn't exit the barrel or make it to the target, and the miss would not create the procedural.  Again, to me that is saying the bullet leaving the barrel after the next shot was legal ammo.

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On 12/11/2018 at 1:51 PM, Leadfinger said:

It is possible the bullet hit the target or it's possible the second round pushed the squib out as the shooter continued the string..............

 

Lead Finger

 

Pards,

Once again, I refer to a post by the TO himself.    This particular statement is where I base my feelings of

a NO CALL.      Even the TO states that it is possible the bullet hit the target.  

The way it is written implies that it is possible the bullet exited the barrel on its own power.

 

Does this not interject 'doubt' into the situation that would warrant a No Call?

 

Thank goodness that common sense and good communications between the TO and the Spotters

was working as it should for this shooter.

 

Now, back to my regular programming..... I'm watching Godzilla on TV.

 

..........Widder

 

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8 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

So you have a squib with the first round, fail to stop when given a ceasefire command, and expect a clean stage when no one knows where the first round went?  Come on Phantom, this isn't that difficult to figure out.

you don't give a cease fire command for a squib unless you want to give reshoots for squibs.. just saying

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So here we are at the bottom of page 3 of replies with no end in sight.

To summarize:

We have an "experienced shooter" that has a suspected squib as the first round fired from their second revolver.  "Experienced shooter" ignores TOs STOP command and continues/completes the stage.  And, since we do have an "experienced shooter" they are given a "clean" stage.

There was no excuse for not stopping.  Hard hearing doesn't work.  If I have to tap them on the shoulder to start them, I'm going to put my hand on their shoulder to stop them. 

The "experienced shooter" earned a MDQ and was given a clean stage.

 

And yes, if it had been a phart load vs. squib, the "experienced shooter" would have been given a re-shoot.

 

There are an infinite number of excuses for ................   At this point you can fill in the blank.

 

BS

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Actually, you don't give reshoots for squibs... you give a reshoot when there's no obstruction in the barrel after the shooter stops upon command.  

 

An underpowered round that leaves the barrel is NOT a squib...

 

I remember an instance where a situation happened thusly, shooter fired round 1, severely underpowered, however, TO could see the projectile in flight, then round 2 was fired, full power (for that shooter);   round 2 hit its target BEFORE round 1 hit its  designated target...  After the conclusion of the shooters stage, the ensuing discussion about whether it's shooting the targets in order or is it hitting the targets in order was epic!  Now, it should be mentioned that target 1 was farther away than target 2, but... it was clearly observed by all three spotters that round 2 hit before round 1. 

 

In the case of the OP, what's the mantra?  If you know it's a miss, it's a miss, if you think it's a miss, it's a hit, if you know it's a hit, it damn well better be counted as a hit.  Absent clear evidence of a miss, it's a hit.  The logic that sez,  since it was an underpowered round, it couldn't make it to the target, is not CLEAR EVIDENCE of a miss.

 

The only discussion should be whether the shooter ignored the stop command or did the shooter fail to hear the command.  And since there's no answer to that question, only the shooter knows, it's moot.

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10 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

So you have a squib with the first round, fail to stop when given a ceasefire command, and expect a clean stage when no one knows where the first round went?  Come on Phantom, this isn't that difficult to figure out.

Again, I'm addressing the miss call.

 

The failure to stop is irrelevant to the discussion of the miss call.

 

Can you please focus only on that issue and justify your call of a miss?

 

Phantom

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21 minutes ago, Griff said:

Actually, you don't give reshoots for squibs... you give a reshoot when there's no obstruction in the barrel after the shooter stops upon command.  

 

An underpowered round that leaves the barrel is NOT a squib...

 

I remember an instance where a situation happened thusly, shooter fired round 1, severely underpowered, however, TO could see the projectile in flight, then round 2 was fired, full power (for that shooter);   round 2 hit its target BEFORE round 1 hit its  designated target...  After the conclusion of the shooters stage, the ensuing discussion about whether it's shooting the targets in order or is it hitting the targets in order was epic!  Now, it should be mentioned that target 1 was farther away than target 2, but... it was clearly observed by all three spotters that round 2 hit before round 1. 

 

In the case of the OP, what's the mantra?  If you know it's a miss, it's a miss, if you think it's a miss, it's a hit, if you know it's a hit, it damn well better be counted as a hit.  Absent clear evidence of a miss, it's a hit.  The logic that sez,  since it was an underpowered round, it couldn't make it to the target, is not CLEAR EVIDENCE of a miss.

 

The only discussion should be whether the shooter ignored the stop command or did the shooter fail to hear the command.  And since there's no answer to that question, only the shooter knows, it's moot.

 

Wish I was this eloquent.    Good post Griff.

 

(Griff has been around since basically Day 1 of SASS.   Although that don't make him smarter than 

any of the other Wire Pards, his knowledge and wisdom is derived from his experience(s) in SASS

and his post are always worth reading).

 

..........Widder

 

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On 12/10/2018 at 10:33 PM, Reverend Ledslinga said:

Pistol string of a stage was a 1 4 4 1 sweep. Not gunfighter.  First pistol good, 2nd pistol, first shot a squib where the bullet did not leave the barrel. Shooter was too quick or just decided to continue shooting. Fired the next three rounds all on target #3 and fifth and final single shot good on target #4. Whats the call?  Obviously, it is simply impossible for that first bullet (lodged in the barrel) and the second round not to hit the target together pretty much as one double hit shall we say. Not sure this is covered in the rule book. Now, and this is covered. The TO did say "stop" but like I said earlier the shooter did not even hesitate in trying to quad tap that #3 target. Interested to hear what the ruling should have been. 

He says the "BULLET DID NOT LEAVE THE BARREL", so I see what Phantom is saying but I assume it left the barrel with the second round which was aimed at the next target. Therefore he missed the FIRST target. My guess only!

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1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

He says the "BULLET DID NOT LEAVE THE BARREL", so I see what Phantom is saying but I assume it left the barrel with the second round which was aimed at the next target. Therefore he missed the FIRST target. My guess only!

First thru forth shot were to be on the same target.

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7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

First thru forth shot were to be on the same target.

It's all on the spotters!! How would they have known whether it was one round or two???

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Since this is SASS, I thought that we should mention how SASS defines it.

 

ROI

misfire.png.626f9e4e87364ed8fc5e3bde3e09a806.png

 

squib.png.74ca8820db61aa990b08c6888cc6b5ad.png

 

SHB pg 13

Quote

- In the case of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm. If the barrel is later determined to be clear, the shooter will receive a reshoot.

 

On a personal note, my lovely wife's rifle has a nice bulge in the barrel about 4 inches of so from the muzzle from a squib she shot out because no one realized that she had one in order to tell her to stop.

 

They ended up giving her a miss.

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1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

It's all on the spotters!! How would they have known whether it was one round or two???

Yes, that's obvious.

 

But in order to call a miss, spotters must know that it was a miss. You made my point... Thank you!

 

Phantom

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yes, that's obvious.

 

But in order to call a miss, spotters must know that it was a miss. You made my point... Thank you!

 

Phantom

 If two rounds hit the target at the same time it would be almost impossible to know if it was one or two. Therefore the spotters "heard" only one hit on the second target. My guess is they assumed the first target was missed. It's pretty hard to determine this since nether of us were there.:blink:

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On 12/10/2018 at 10:33 PM, Reverend Ledslinga said:

First pistol good, 2nd pistol, first shot....

 

Full stop right there.   Did the bullet from the first shot of the 2nd pistol hit a target?   If not, then that's a miss - regardless of what happens afterwards.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

 If two rounds hit the target at the same time it would be almost impossible to know if it was one or two. Therefore the spotters "heard" only one hit on the second target. My guess is they assumed the first target was missed. It's pretty hard to determine this since nether of us were there.:blink:

Assumed facts:

 

1. There was a stuck bullet

2: First round was pushed out of the barrel by the second round.

3. Second round hit correct target.

 

There is more evidence that two bullets hit the appropriate target.

 

Again, justify a miss call.

 

Phantom

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The second target IS the first target, remember 1-4-4-1 sweep and second pistol? First round is not fired into the target, or was it? We don't know, apparently no one does. Shooter was given a STOP, loud enough to be heard by spotters AND an adjacent posse! Short of grabbing the gun, RO can't do much more. Who cares if it's a miss or a hit? The stop sign ends the run. Shooter kept going... MDQ.

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1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

The second target IS the first target, remember 1-4-4-1 sweep and second pistol? First round is not fired into the target, or was it? We don't know, apparently no one does. Shooter was given a STOP, loud enough to be heard by spotters AND an adjacent posse! Short of grabbing the gun, RO can't do much more. Who cares if it's a miss or a hit? The stop sign ends the run. Shooter kept going... MDQ.

Too funny...

 

Yes, assuming you are correct on the MDQ call.

 

But it does matter if you are not correct.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Did the RO call a STOP?

Did the shooter keep going?

 

You make the call

Again, to funny.

 

Lots of variables that can alter my opinion.

 

I'm addressing the miss call. Feel free to continue with your MDQ call discussion.

 

Phantom

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