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Lightning Will, SASS#56934

Shooting the Rifle last on a stage.

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It's a shot timer pick up problem. Most shot timers are difficult to set the sensitivity to pick up the..."60"PF loads... fired by many shooters in cas in the rifles. It can be done, but the sensitivity involved might get screwed up by the next bay over shooting a shotgun or something. If you have a young and fast RO with longer arms it wouldn't be a problem. He just runs with the shooter and extends out beside the shooter toward the muzzle. I've timed suppressed rifles, and .22's  this way. Holding it back behind the shooter, not a chance in it picking up. It can be distracting to the shooter as well. 

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Yes, it causes problems!

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We have lots of "shooting order is shooters choice, rifle may not be shot last." Therefore not an issue

 

Imis

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On speed rifle side matches there's never a problem.:rolleyes:

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It depends...….if you have other posses near the timer (if it's really sensitive) it can pick them up so you have to be aware of that and cover ASAP. Also it depends on the pards you are shooting with too and of course if the RO is aware and checking the timer when in doubt.

 

Most people shoot 73 & 66's and if they aren't near squib levels you'll probably be fine as well. Also if there is a roof over you that helps too the timer pick up all the shots better. It is not as sensitive in the open. All that said "if" you get a Marlin shooter with a 24 inch bbl and light loads it might not get them all because unlike the 66 & 73 it's not open at the top and the action being closed sends most of the blast out the bbl.....that's when you'll have issues.

 

So 98% of the time you'll be fine...…..but IMO if you are having a state level match or above the LAST thing you want is to have people doing a reshoot on a stage because the timer didn't pick up all the shots. That usually never goes well. It might erase a miss or two, or a P and make others upset or it can turn a great stage into a train wreck and make the shooter upset because they had to reshoot a great stage. All to have the rifle shot last...…..too risky. 

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I have been told that some of the problems that have come up...usually because of very light loads and light loads from 32 cal rifles.

 

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no.....just added stress for TO...along with above mentioned.

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Why take the chance that someones rifle shots might not be counted because the timer wasn’t close enough to the rifle to pick up all of the rifle shots? Will the TO’s check every shooters timer to make sure all shots were counted? How much time will it add to a match to do so?

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We sometimes allow it, but we caution the TO’s to pay specific attention to the timer, and NOT on a stage where the rifle is being shot through a window/prop.  The odds are really against you getting the shots if there is a wall between the timer and the muzzle. 

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10 hours ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

My club also uses, the rifle cannot be shot last, if you have a choice on target shooting order.

same at our club

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12 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

On speed rifle side matches there's never a problem.:rolleyes:

I have to disagree, a few years ago I shot back to back runs that recorded a 0.0 on both runs.  A TO can make it work but they have to pay attention.

 

Just my opinion

Randy

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After nine years of shooting, I can count the number of times I have shot rifle last on one hand.

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Place the timer on the table and stand back(if there's a table), it's typically TO error not the timer. Speed event, let the shooter start the timer on the table. 

It's far from rocket science. There are many variables; in-line shooting, temperature, and wind are 3 I can think of.

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Over 20 years of TOing, I've never missed the last shot.

 

Fillmore

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Just curious. When I started CAS I saw shooters with rounds that were visible in flight because of the very light loading.  I don't see that anymore. I think most shooters have gone to a moderate rather than extremely light load.

Do you still see the 300f/s loads like in the "old days" of 15 years ago?

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23 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I have to disagree, a few years ago I shot back to back runs that recorded a 0.0 on both runs.  A TO can make it work but they have to pay attention.

 

Just my opinion

Randy

I agree and that goes without saying. It's all on the person running the timer to make sure he gets it in close enough. We've picked up .22 rifles from Buckaroos and Buckarettes with no problem.

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12 hours ago, Noz said:

Just curious. When I started CAS I saw shooters with rounds that were visible in flight because of the very light loading.  I don't see that anymore. I think most shooters have gone to a moderate rather than extremely light load.

Do you still see the 300f/s loads like in the "old days" of 15 years ago?

Don't most places have a minimum FPS requirement nowadays? The rules state no velocity less than 400 fps. The problem with light loads is that there are more on target misses called. Strikes near the attachment point that don't move the target visibly, the "pink" are imperceptible to the spotters over the echo of the shot through ear pro.

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Finishing with the rifle is totally cool and wonderful... That's why very few stages are written with the rifle last...

 

:mellow:

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23 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Finishing with the rifle is totally cool and wonderful... That's why very few stages are written with the rifle last...

 

:mellow:

 

Especially when finishing a stage with the rifle on a Texas Star  :lol:

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"Rifle shot last", is seldom used at the four clubs I regularly shoot. Why, because of light loads and the total due diligence required of each and every Timer Operator at a match. I've witnessed some very fast times recorded due to errors by the T/O with timer placement for the last shot of a rifle. Especially with stages having windows & doorways. Why risk errant timing for the sake of shooting rifle last? 

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So we just eliminate a third of all possible scenarios because we don't trust TOs to do the job right?  

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So the not so subtle undertone here is that with a competent TO you can shoot the rifle last in a stage...so how do we get more of those? The need has been clearly highlighted...

 

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The rifle last deal gets worst, when it's a .22. ;)

The big deal is when we shoot through 'windows'& 'doors' and such.

 

OLG

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2 minutes ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

So the not so subtle undertone here is that with a competent TO you can shoot the rifle last in a stage...so how do we get more of those? The need has been clearly highlighted...

 

I'll be running a class for educating timer operators, $120.00 for a 5 minute course. Anyone interested please contact me. I'll be holding them at my house. Appointments available during the day from 1:00 - 1:15 daily. Cash only please!

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There are a number of reasons for the following statement in the SHB...and they are not all related to the Timer Operator's competence:

 

Quote

- If the rifle is the last firearm used (NOT recommended), ...

 

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22 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I'll be running a class for educating timer operators, $120.00 for a 5 minute course. Anyone interested please contact me. I'll be holding them at my house. Appointments available during the day from 1:00 - 1:15 daily. Cash only please!

Yeah, gotta love the capitalism at work here. Not picking on you Rye, your comment was humorous. The subject is however a valid point and challenge faced by every shooting sports discipline and most profound in sass. Sport needs something to make matches happen, clubs need people who want to do it, and folks are trying to make a buck on the process. Sass, idpa, uspsa...all the same racket...all the same problem. One thing that is being done by uspsa clubs is that home clubs defray the cost of the class to shooters that frequent their shoots and agree to help out. Win win for all involved. And back to why the rifle should be last...

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3 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

There are a number of reasons for the following statement in the SHB...and they are not all related to the Timer Operator's competence:

 

 

 

Just out of pure curiosity, could you list those reasons?  The only reason I've ever heard of is the timer possibly not picking up the last shot.  Again, just pure curiosity. I promise I won't argue with them or call any of them stoopid. ;)

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Just out of pure curiosity, could you list those reasons?  The only reason I've ever heard of is the timer possibly not picking up the last shot.  Again, just pure curiosity. I promise I won't argue with them or call any of them stoopid. ;)

He said timer operator, not timer.

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11 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Just out of pure curiosity, could you list those reasons?  The only reason I've ever heard of is the timer possibly not picking up the last shot.  Again, just pure curiosity. I promise I won't argue with them or call any of them stoopid. ;)

Then PWB will have to spend all day draw'n pictures for you...:P

I do hate to say this-'Shooting Bull'(AKA,'Slip n Slide':lol:)does ask a good question. :huh:

OLG

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4 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Just out of pure curiosity, could you list those reasons?  The only reason I've ever heard of is the timer possibly not picking up the last shot.  Again, just pure curiosity. I promise I won't argue with them or call any of them stoopid. ;)

 

Most are related to variations affecting timer pickup of the shots (for example):
Timer sensitivity setting

Reduced power loads (either powder charge or sub-caliber rounds)

Barrel length

Stage obstructions (walls/windows/doorways)

...others ARE related to the T/O's handling of the timer:

The manner in which the timer is held:

Orientation of the timer microphone in the proper direction (e.g. aimed toward the muzzle)

Closeness to the shooter (without being obstructive or distracting)

 

FWIW - It is very distracting to have the T/O's arm extended out alongside the rifle while engaging targets.

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Noz said:

Just curious. When I started CAS I saw shooters with rounds that were visible in flight because of the very light loading.  I don't see that anymore. I think most shooters have gone to a moderate rather than extremely light load.

Do you still see the 300f/s loads like in the "old days" of 15 years ago?

 

I don't know what velocity others are shooting, but it could be that you see fewer bullets in flight mainly because the targets are closer these days. 

 

6 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

So the not so subtle undertone here is that with a competent TO you can shoot the rifle last in a stage...so how do we get more of those? The need has been clearly highlighted...

 

 

Simple.  Write more stages with the rifle last at monthly matches.  You can't learn a skill you don't practice. 

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I write most every stage rifle first, second or a choice with "rifle not last". Every once in a while though, I will throw in a rifle last stage. Maybe every 18 months or so and ALWAYS on the bay that has three walls and a roof. My daughter shot buckarette for a few years and you do have to be careful picking up those .22 rifle shots.

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18 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Most are related to variations affecting timer pickup of the shots (for example):
Timer sensitivity setting

Reduced power loads (either powder charge or sub-caliber rounds)

Barrel length

Stage obstructions (walls/windows/doorways)

...others ARE related to the T/O's handling of the timer:

The manner in which the timer is held:

Orientation of the timer microphone in the proper direction (e.g. aimed toward the muzzle)

Closeness to the shooter (without being obstructive or distracting)

 

FWIW - It is very distracting to have the T/O's arm extended out alongside the rifle while engaging targets.

 

 

 

 

Gotcha.  So we're looking at a bunch of different variations of the same theme, the last shot not being recorded. 

 

Just dreaming here, I wish we could find some way to overcome this.  Like has been said, we're eliminating 1/3 of possible stage scenarios.  That ties the stage writer's hands and reduces the amount of variation in the match.  I do love me some variation. 

 

What I've seen done on stages where rifle has been last is the TO will hold the timer below the shooter's off side.  I'm right handed so I hold my rifle to my right shoulder.  The TO would hold the timer below my left arm and forward, approximately under the elbow.  This way the TO isn't in my field of view but the timer can easily pick up all the rifle shots.  This obviously wouldn't work on a stage that's being shot through a window or doorway, but then you don't make the rifle last on those stages. 

 

Oh well.  Like I said, just dreaming.

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