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Lightning Will, SASS#56934

Shooting the Rifle last on a stage.

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We write a fair amount of stages with the rifle shot last. We do not, however, use props for the rifle to be shot thru when it is last. We like having the ability to vary the order of the firearms being shot. We also usually don't have a problem with the last shot being picked up by the timer.

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Around the Central Florida area, many of the clubs do write stages with the rifle last.  Others have stages specifying “rifle not last” but still have a stage later with rifle last.  At our last match in Orlando, two of the six six stages had rifle last with no problems.  

 

Orlando’s range has separate berms with side berms for each stage though.  So the possibility of recording shots from adjacent stages is greatly reduced.

 

Or maybe because Florida is almost at sea level for the whole state, the atmospheric pressure is higher, and when coupled with higher humidity, causes sound to travel faster making rifle shots easier to pick up.

 

Anyway my clever attempts to “game” the system by using my Marlin Model 1892 chambered in 32 S&W (short) didn’t work.  The timer always picked up the shots.

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Hi Will and Others,

 

Most stages at my home venue are shot with shooter's choice of gun order.

 

At an annual a few years ago, a very experienced, many years in SASS, and well-respected TO wrote on his comment card about a shooter who chose to shoot rifle last. TO didn't pick up the last shot, shooter was clean. On reshoot, shooter missed one. TO was very unhappy about it and implied he wouldn't be back if the practice continued. MD said shooter shouldn't have shot the rifle last with such light loads.

 

We do have many buildings and store fronts, which some on this thread have indicated are impediments to the timer recording shots.

 

I always try to position the timer to record shots on the last gun (receiver toward gun and display toward me). One time, through a window, I recorded ZERO, ZIP, NADA shots on the last gun-the rifle. I gave the timer to someone with longer arms. He was able to record the last shot.

 

Those are the only two incidents I can recall where there was a problem with the rifle being last. However, as a WAG, I'd say, when there is a choice, most people shoot SG last. I shoot pistols last when possible.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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11 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

We do have many buildings and store fronts, which some on this thread have indicated are impediments to the timer recording shots.

 

I always try to position the timer to record shots on the last gun (receiver toward gun and display toward me). One time, through a window, I recorded ZERO, ZIP, NADA shots on the last gun-the rifle. I gave the timer to someone with longer arms. He was able to record the last shot.

 

Those are the only two incidents I can recall where there was a problem with the rifle being last. However, as a WAG, I'd say, when there is a choice, most people shoot SG last. I shoot pistols last when possible.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

This is heads up play right here. Awesome! Looking at the timer to make sure it's picking up the shots is something everyone should be doing. You can also slap the timer too. Not as accurate, but better than nothing for suppressed guns or teeny tiny rifle loads. 

 

PWB was talking about the timer being extended beside the shooter causing distraction. The easy solution to this is holding it over the shooter's head if you are able. Basically as long as you're standing on their strong side they probably won't notice as the hat will be cocked to that side as the engage the stock for cheek weld. Most people are not going to worry about the blue box in their peripheral vision on the final position. If they are, they're grasping at straws for an excuse to reshoot as their focus should be on the sights, target and cheek weld. If there is a small opening and the shooter's shooting through it, reach around the prop with the timer. The shooter has to pull the gun all the way back through the opening to do something really dumb so you can afford to be further away. You can also have the scorer/clipboard assist you with your control of the shooter. Only takes one hand on the shoulder or grasping behind the elbow to stop someone from turning up range or stop firing.

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7 minutes ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

This is heads up play right here. Awesome! Looking at the timer to make sure it's picking up the shots is something everyone should be doing. You can also slap the timer too. Not as accurate, but better than nothing for suppressed guns or teeny tiny rifle loads. 

 

PWB was talking about the timer being extended beside the shooter causing distraction. The easy solution to this is holding it over the shooter's head if you are able. Basically as long as you're standing on their strong side they probably won't notice as the hat will be cocked to that side as the engage the stock for cheek weld. Most people are not going to worry about the blue box in their peripheral vision on the final position. If they are, they're grasping at straws for an excuse to reshoot as their focus should be on the sights, target and cheek weld. If there is a small opening and the shooter's shooting through it, reach around the prop with the timer. The shooter has to pull the gun all the way back through the opening to do something really dumb so you can afford to be further away. You can also have the scorer/clipboard assist you with your control of the shooter. Only takes one hand on the shoulder or grasping behind the elbow to stop someone from turning up range or stop firing.

I would hope that you wouldn't slap a timer to record the time at any time.

It isn't acceptable at any range that I know of.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

I would hope that you wouldn't slap a timer to record the time at any time.

It isn't acceptable at any range that I know of.

 

 

It's par for the course when recording times for suppressed weapons. Harrumph...

Okay, I have a better solution, rifle last with a plate rack or star. All your shooters will magically not have a problem being picked up by the timer I'll bet.

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I write most of my stages as shooter’s choice. Some people will shoot rifle last, many won’t. Personal preference. That having been said, our range has no props to shoot through, and the bays have berms on three sides. We’ve never had an issue with picking up the rifle shots.

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36 minutes ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

It's par for the course when recording times for suppressed weapons. Harrumph...

Okay, I have a better solution, rifle last with a plate rack or star. All your shooters will magically not have a problem being picked up by the timer I'll bet.

We don't shoot suppressed weapons. We shoot cowboy era guns.

We also take the timer away from people that "tap" on timers so that a time is recorded.

 

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4 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

We don't shoot suppressed weapons. We shoot cowboy era guns.

We also take the timer away from people that "tap" on timers so that a time is recorded.

 

Harrumph...harrumph...up hill to school both ways...in the snow...year round...and wee liked it! *Slaps timer* Next Shooter!

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8 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Harrumph...harrumph...up hill to school both ways...in the snow...year round...and wee liked it! *Slaps timer* Next Shooter!

 

 

This seems to be opening a HUGE can of worms so I'd like a clarification just to make sure I'm reading your posts correctly.  Are you saying the if the timer isn't picking up the rifle shots you slap it to "artificially" record the time for the last shot???

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

This seems to be opening a HUGE can of worms so I'd like a clarification just to make sure I'm reading your posts correctly.  Are you saying the if the timer isn't picking up the rifle shots you slap it to "artificially" record the time for the last shot???

Please...I hope not!

 

:huh:

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47 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

This seems to be opening a HUGE can of worms so I'd like a clarification just to make sure I'm reading your posts correctly.  Are you saying the if the timer isn't picking up the rifle shots you slap it to "artificially" record the time for the last shot???

Yes. Oh yes. Keep the match moving along. Won't be a problem at all. Trust me, I've got candy...in my basement. Where'd I put that can opener?

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We saw a TO thump a timer once. It added approximately 40 seconds to a good shooter's time.

 

TO was a known cheat. That was just one "nail in his coffin; he ended up being banned from all No. CA and No. NV clubs for a variety of reasons. The worst was his belligerent attitude.

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Ya tap a timer, yer off the range.

 

Not how this game is played... Sorry.

 

Phantom

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21 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

We saw a TO thump a timer once. It added approximately 40 seconds to a good shooter's time.

 

TO was a known cheat. That was just one "nail in his coffin; he ended up being banned from all No. CA and No. NV clubs for a variety of reasons. The worst was his belligerent attitude.

Well that's certainly one way to do it. How was the reading of the time delayed by forty seconds from the end of the stage? Lazy scorekeeper. We had a guy get caught in uspsa by another competitor using a personal shot timer on "spy mode" where it picks up the beep of the timer and the last shot. Four seconds difference as to what was being called. Banned.

 

Immediately after the shooter finishes the timer should be held behind the body of the TO in the direction of the scorekeeper for them to record the time. This also protects the shooter from action noises adding to stage times. After all the muzzles are up the time should be read aloud and if desired shown to the competitor.

 

Anyway there's no malicious intent here, just a thought to keep the match going. I'm not a fan of reshoots and the benefit or effect to the competitor would be minimal, literally a shot to shot split. It's not so bad really, not like we have to paste up a whole bunch of targets to reset. The shooter just loses an entire stage of ammo.

 

Keep keen eye out for timer slappers! They'll gitcha!

 

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2 minutes ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Well that's certainly one way to do it. How was the reading of the time delayed by forty seconds from the end of the stage? Lazy scorekeeper. We had a guy get caught in uspsa by another competitor using a personal shot timer on "spy mode" where it picks up the beep of the timer and the last shot. Four seconds difference as to what was being called. Banned.

 

Immediately after the shooter finishes the timer should be held behind the body of the TO in the direction of the scorekeeper for them to record the time. This also protects the shooter from action noises adding to stage times. After all the muzzles are up the time should be read aloud and if desired shown to the competitor.

 

Anyway there's no malicious intent here, just a thought to keep the match going. I'm not a fan of reshoots and the benefit or effect to the competitor would be minimal, literally a shot to shot split. It's not so bad really, not like we have to paste up a whole bunch of targets to reset. The shooter just loses an entire stage of ammo.

 

Keep keen eye out for timer slappers! They'll gitcha!

 

The timer was thumped way after the last shot.

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1 minute ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

The timer was thumped way after the last shot.

I get that. Where is the time management awareness? The problem is that the recording was delayed long enough for someone to do that. If the scorekeeper was awake, they should have been screaming for the score as soon as muzzles went up.  

Someone that knew how to work the timer could have gone back and seen the 40 second shot to shot split also. That's really stupid to do that.  

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1 minute ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

I get that. Where is the time management awareness? The problem is that the recording was delayed long enough for someone to do that. If the scorekeeper was awake, they should have been screaming for the score as soon as muzzles went up.  

Someone that knew how to work the timer could have gone back and seen the 40 second shot to shot split also. That's really stupid to do that.  

TO wasn't known for his intelligence and it took a long time for anyone to challenge his integrity.  His over-the-top belligerence finally got him.

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When I'm teaching a RO course here's how I teach the participants to run the timer and also how I run the timer when I'm the TO.  To start the stage I hold the timer in a position that the shooter can hear the beep and I can see the display in a way that doesn't interfere with the shooters peripheral vision.  I want to see that the timer is recording and once I do I simply watch the shooter, gun, count shots and watch the order the targets are engaged.  Once the shooter gets to the last gun I position the timer so that I can visual see the last 2 shots recorded.  Once I visually confirm the last shot I cover the mic, show the time and read it to the shooter while making sure they are safely moving to the unload table.  Once I'm sure the shooter is safely on their way to the unload table  I show the time to the scorekeeper and confirm the number of misses with the spotters and give that information to the score keeper.  

 

I don't like stages that have the rifle last and several times over the years have had to have participants reshoot a stage because I didn't see the last shoot record for what ever reason.  Other than at the beginning and end of the stage I'm not concerned with what's happening with the timer, after all it's the last shot of the stage that counts.

GB 

 

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2 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Yes. Oh yes. Keep the match moving along. Won't be a problem at all. Trust me, I've got candy...in my basement. Where'd I put that can opener?

 

 

Well I certainly agree that we need to keep matches moving along but recording a false time isn't on my list of approved ways of accomplishing that. 

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3 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Immediately after the shooter finishes the timer should be held behind the body of the TO in the direction of the scorekeeper for them to record the time. This also protects the shooter from action noises adding to stage times. After all the muzzles are up the time should be read aloud and if desired shown to the competitor.

 

That's NOT the method as taught in the SASS "Range Officer Training Course" :

 

Quote

As the shooter approaches the last shot to be fired, prepare to watch the last timer update and cover the timer‘s microphone immediately after the shooter is finished, preventing the recording of shots from the adjacent bay(s). Once the shooter is finished the course of fire, the CRO shall call out the raw time in loud, clear voice to the shooter, and then instruct them (if they are not doing so already) to holster all revolvers, retrieve all long guns, and move to the unloading area with the muzzles in a safe direction.  With the shooter moving to the unloading table, the raw time is then communicated to the score keeper and the spotters polled for misses, procedural input and safety input.  These penalties may then be communicated to the score keeper and the shooter without delay. 

RO2 pp. 7-8

 

 

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9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That's NOT the method as taught in the SASS "Range Officer Training Course" :

 

RO2 pp. 7-8

 

 

What???

 

I immediately hide the timer... Tapping it on my belt buckle as I walk over to the score keeper... Making sure that I don't call out the time to the shooter. 

 

:mellow:

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12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

What???

 

I immediately hide the timer... Tapping it on my belt buckle as I walk over to the scope keeper... Making sure that I don't call out the time to the shooter. 

 

:mellow:

Thats one way to make sure you get the best time:D

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We shoot rifle last now and again, it adds flexibility to stage writing.   Care is taken to have the shooting position be open enough to allow the TO to properly position the timer to pick up the last shot.  So no rifle thru a narrow window.  TOs watch the timer to ensure that shots are being picked up early in the rifle string so that they can re-position the timer if need be.  Never had a problem at our club match level that I know of.

 

Personally I wouldn't write a rifle last stage in a bigger match just for the fact that the peanut gallery would get their panties in a bunch.  

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That's NOT the method as taught in the SASS "Range Officer Training Course" :

 

RO2 pp. 7-8

 

 

Well since sass shooters are prohibited from ever reading the rulebookssss plural under the "sass wire doctrine" page 5 section 2 paragraph A... I would never have known that. :P

 

I propose that the rules be rewritten and combined into one(1) book with clear examples given on rules and enforcement. The current version requires more interpretation and clarification than idpa, which recently redid their rules for clarity within the last few years. 

13 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said:

Personally I wouldn't write a rifle last stage in a bigger match just for the fact that the peanut gallery would get their panties in a bunch.  

Now if we don't keep the peanut gallery engaged, they won't be ready for a WTC when something interesting occurs. Write rifle last and keep the peanuteers on the edge of their stools...

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1 hour ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

 

Well since sass shooters are prohibited from ever reading the rulebookssss plural under the "sass wire doctrine" page 5 section 2 paragraph A... I would never have known that. :P

 

I propose that the rules be rewritten and combined into one(1) book with clear examples given on rules and enforcement. The current version requires more interpretation and clarification than idpa, which recently redid their rules for clarity within the last few years. 

Now if we don't keep the peanut gallery engaged, they won't be ready for a WTC when something interesting occurs. Write rifle last and keep the peanuteers on the edge of their stools...

I nominate you for that task.

 

Have fun!

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5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I nominate you for that task.

 

Have fun!

Be careful what you wish for...shooting on the move with 100 PF minimum and reloads to make up misses oh my!

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1 hour ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Be careful what you wish for...shooting on the move with 100 PF minimum and reloads to make up misses oh my!

I'm not wishing for anything... You are ;)

 

Let us know how the new rulebook is progressing.

 

Phantom

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If I was in the situation that allie described, I'd probably reach over and tap the timer myself to keep from having to do a reshoot.  Clean matches are more important to me than the time. 

 

Unless I'd already blown the clean match, then I'd relish the chance to shoot more without being charged extra. 

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4 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

If I was in the situation that allie described, I'd probably reach over and tap the timer myself to keep from having to do a reshoot.  Clean matches are more important to me than the time. 

 

Unless I'd already blown the clean match, then I'd relish the chance to shoot more without being charged extra. 

If time is not an issue, how can you not have a clean match?

 

:huh:

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He doesn't think he'll survive the reshoot clean? Not all shooters are of equal marksmanship skills? Some people recognize the importance of keeping the match going? 

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If time is not an issue, how can you not have a clean match?

 

:huh:

 

I referred specifically to Allie Mo's story.  Do you have her on ignore? 

 

" TO didn't pick up the last shot, shooter was clean. On reshoot, shooter missed one. "

 

Ask that guy, whoever he was. 

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7 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Clean matches are more important to me than the time. 

I was remarking on this statement...thought that you made it.

 

And no, I don't "Ignore" anyone...don't "Block" anyone...so...

 

Cheers!

Phantom

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On 11/16/2018 at 9:43 AM, M.T Chambers, SASS#76185 said:

popcorn.gif 

 

MTC we are going to need a bigger bucket and about a ton of butter!

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