irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 The complete stage description doesn't matter.. Start Shotgun in hand engage the two shotgun targets at the left window, MGD. Then move to the right window and engage the two shotgun targets MGD. Shooter gets in position gun in hand. His muzzle is not through the window. He has stepped back to allow himself to move without having to step back, pulling the muzzle out of the opening. TO tells him that he can't do that. His muzzle has to be through the window. Shooter complies but, He asks me after the shoot and asked if that was a rule. I said no. We have been doing that for years. Shooters can step back and shoot so they can move without pulling the muzzle out of the opening. And I have seen it at major matches. I can't find anything in the rule book. Other than if the shooter shoots the prop/storefront he gets to go home. What says the wire? Ike
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 Not a standard SASS stage convention, it must be written into the stage description, muzzle must be sticking out of the windows otherwise it's a no call. TB
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 10, 2018 Author Posted January 10, 2018 Turquoise I just went through the Stage Conventions. Nothing is written about the muzzle having to be through the window! Iker
Keystone, SASS # 47578 Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 Might be a range specific regulation that should either have been mentioned prior to the match or listed with the stage instructions and not just a comment by the T/O.
Flash Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 I have been told that the muzzle of your gun has to be at or across the firing line, but I don't recall ever reading that anywhere.
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, Flash said: I have been told that the muzzle of your gun has to be at or across the firing line, but I don't recall ever reading that anywhere. I've never heard that one before. On ranges with a common firing line, there should be some general guidelines. It makes sense that you be essentially "at the firing line" but that means the general area, not an exact measurement. If the above is true, we would be giving out the dreaded "foot fault" penalties - which turns into a dangerous game.
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 There are no rules (other than if you get to where you are into "unsafe gun handling" area) that prevent you from shooting a reasonable distance up range from where the shooting position is. Most shooting positions are stated as "at ...." or 'behind ..." some object. Reasonable distance is often, can you reach to the object that defines the shooting position. If stage instructions or special range rules are in place, however, then they would take precedence. But in general, you will be legal, save possible front sight damage, and be faster making your transitions if the muzzle is up range of window and door openings, not sticking through them! Good luck, GJ
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Flash said: I have been told that the muzzle of your gun has to be at or across the firing line, but I don't recall ever reading that anywhere. That is either a range specific or more likely a PFA (pulled from a... um, I mean air) rule. I am a lefty; If I am moving left to right to go to a long gun, I will always be a step back from the firing line because I have to pass beyond the butt of my long gun to be in position to pick it up and that step back gives me clearance to pass. As for windows; my muzzle is NEVER going thru the window and if starting at window, you will see me swing my gun barrel to ensure that I will easily clear the window frame when moving.
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 10, 2018 Author Posted January 10, 2018 We got the blue heart of approval from PaleWolf so we're good to go. Ike
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 I shot a match once where the rifle string was 5 double tap targets, with five windows, and the requirement was that the gun must be fired from the inside the correct window. Everyone called it a "p" trap because you had to not cycle after the second shot in order to move to the next window. Never saw that stage again after all the complaining.
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 I got into CAS after shooting modern action pistol matches. We were taught that shooting with a firearm extended out of a window is tactically unsound. An unseen bad guy could grab your firearm and take you off the fight. In CAS I avoid doing so. I don't want to create bad habits that could get me killed.
Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 Shooting through a window of a prop has been an issue here as well. We coach shooters, NOT to crowd the window or stick the muzzles through it. We found it aided reloads and/or transitioning to another position and avoided muzzles tangling with the window frames.
Chief Rick Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 3 minutes ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said: Shooting through a window of a prop has been an issue here as well. We coach shooters, NOT to crowd the window or stick the muzzles through it. We found it aided reloads and/or transitioning to another position and avoided muzzles tangling with the window frames. I've seen a few dropped, loaded pistols due to crowding the window while drawing. Fortunately no one has been injured, but it really sucks for the shooter (especially at a multi-day match).
watab kid Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 never really gave this a lot of thought but do this at most big shoots and only a few have no frames to deal with , local shoots not so much , glad i got to think on it , ill revisit to see what others say here
Yusta B. Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Redwood Kid said: I shot a match once where the rifle string was 5 double tap targets, with five windows, and the requirement was that the gun must be fired from the inside the correct window. Everyone called it a "p" trap because you had to not cycle after the second shot in order to move to the next window. Never saw that stage again after all the complaining. You could also move with the action open .........
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 Well, if more Marlin shooters would step back a little bit (or at least avoid leaning out the window to get that extra few inches closer to the target), they would get more of their brass back.
Wyatt Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 I always had the understanding that down range of the shooter was the firing line… Not a prop
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 slow member here . . . what does MGD mean?
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 MGD??? Never seen it used before. Almost sounds like it's supposed to mean Make Gun Safe, but that would be MGS of course. And if that is what is meant, it's not necessary to write that into the instructions because stage conventions cover it. Good luck, GJ
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted January 11, 2018 Author Posted January 11, 2018 Wyatt gets a cookie, MGD, Must go down. Beats typing it out every time you write a stage. Ike
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 "Must Go Down." Stage conventions already specify knockdowns can be reengaged if missed. You have specified that those shotgun targets are to be shot from specific positions. I believe you have already got the concern (of a shooter wanting to make-up SG targets from an incorrect position) covered by stage conventions and the other text of your stage description. 1. MGD instruction is not needed. The penalty for not getting a target down is - a MISS. If the shooter has fired a round for that target, he has ENGAGED the target. He is not required by SASS rules to shoot it again. 2. If shooter runs out of shells when you have written MUST GO DOWN, what do you expect the shooter to do? Stop the stage because he can't comply? Throw the shotgun at the targets? If all the penalty that you can apply for a shotgun target that has not fallen is a MISS, why are you writing MGD? To require the shooter to completely empty his shotgun belt at a shotgun target that he's having trouble with? Let's not go there! 3. What are you going to call for a Buckaroo then? Follow SASS rules that say a Buckaroo does not have to knock over KDs? Or your own Must Go Down to count as a hit mandate? Let's REALLY NOT GO THERE! Be kind to those Buckaroos. Good luck, GJ
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 LSMFT BYMMV WDIHTLUATSCS (Why do I have to look up all this silly complicated stuff)
Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 By discussion and mutual agreement, our safety brief and match preamble, is printed in the front of all the match booklets for the posse's around here. They include the same wording and specify knockdowns must fall. If you run out of shotgun shells, you have a miss(es). We always ensure our knockdowns are easy to go down. That said, we use a lot of swingers for our shotgun targets, but insist on a good swing or at least an observable hit.
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted January 11, 2018 Posted January 11, 2018 thanks for clarifying the term.
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 9 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: "Must Go Down." Stage conventions already specify knockdowns can be reengaged if missed. You have specified that those shotgun targets are to be shot from specific positions. I believe you have already got the concern (of a shooter wanting to make-up SG targets from an incorrect position) covered by stage conventions and the other text of your stage description. 1. MGD instruction is not needed. The penalty for not getting a target down is - a MISS. If the shooter has fired a round for that target, he has ENGAGED the target. 2. If shooter runs out of shells when you have written MUST GO DOWN, what do you expect the shooter to do? Stop the stage because he can't comply? Throw the shotgun at the targets? If all the penalty that you can apply for a shotgun target that has not fallen is a MISS, why are you writing MGD? To require the shooter to completely empty his shotgun belt at a shotgun target that he's having trouble with? Let's not go there! Good luck, GJ I learned that one the hard way. I wrote "engage knockdowns until down." Shooter ran out of shells and moved on. A spotter said according to the stage instructions he should get a "P". I don't write that anymore.
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 X+ shotgun "knockdown targets must go down to count". Satisfying the round count avoids any "P" arguments. Mandating that a knockdown must fall avoids any hit or miss arguments. In our desire to shorten verbiage in stage writing combined with an incorrect assumption that every shooter knows and understands every stage convention; we open ourselves up to unnecessary debate just to save a few words or a sentence or two. Ink is not that expensive. A (needed) word or two extra in the stage instruction is infinitely superior to a word or two too few.
El Hombre Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 On 11 January 2018 at 6:21 AM, irish ike, SASS #43615 said: The complete stage description doesn't matter.. Start Shotgun in hand engage the two shotgun targets at the left window, MGD. Then move to the right window and engage the two shotgun targets MGD. Shooter gets in position gun in hand. His muzzle is not through the window. He has stepped back to allow himself to move without having to step back, pulling the muzzle out of the opening. TO tells him that he can't do that. His muzzle has to be through the window. Shooter complies but, He asks me after the shoot and asked if that was a rule. I said no. We have been doing that for years. Shooters can step back and shoot so they can move without pulling the muzzle out of the opening. And I have seen it at major matches. I can't find anything in the rule book. Other than if the shooter shoots the prop/storefront he gets to go home. What says the wire? Ike Unless it is stated before hand by in the club rules or match book it's a no call
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 I believe it's the local matches where the shooters NEED TO LEARN all the rules. So, if you have to have a debate just to teach someone who does not know the rules and stage conventions, then let's do it at the local level (not a big matches!) where there is 1. Nothing but bragging rights on the line 2. A smaller crowd so more personal attention can be provided 3. No "big deal" made at big matches when some shooter protests because "we've never done it that way back home!" Good luck, GJ
Two Spurs Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 21 hours ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said: By discussion and mutual agreement, our safety brief and match preamble, is printed in the front of all the match booklets for the posse's around here. They include the same wording and specify knockdowns must fall. If you run out of shotgun shells, you have a miss(es). We always ensure our knockdowns are easy to go down. That said, we use a lot of swingers for our shotgun targets, but insist on a good swing or at least an observable hit. 12 hours ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said: I learned that one the hard way. I wrote "engage knockdowns until down." Shooter ran out of shells and moved on. A spotter said according to the stage instructions he should get a "P". I don't write that anymore. We got a bit OT, but... Virtually nobody else writes it either Newt. In general, do odd duck local club rules benefit the game as a whole, or does it help spread wrong "opinions" of the actual rules really are and, in reality, confuse people even more? (like muzzle must be through the window) Page 15 in the Shooter's Handbook says, " Shotgun targets may be re-engaged until down, unless otherwise specified by the stage description. Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong but the intention here is that they specifically do not have to be re-engaged unless the shooter wants to. The KD's have been engaged same as pistol and rifle targets have been engaged with appropriate number of rounds. All SASS clubs running by SASS rules is a win/win for our game as a whole it would seem to me. IMHO
Cowboy Junky Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 I have shot on some prop's where the porches are too narrow and the guns have to be through the window......not really a choice. If I have the room I'll back up many times so I don't have to pull the gun back through the window. Never had anyone even question where I stood. Of course the stage designer has total control of that IMO. Since you put the targets up you can force the shooter's to do what you want if you are that concerned about it.
wyliefoxEsquire Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 Jail Bars???? I shot through them once in Salt Lake City, using shotgun. Caused me to slow down a bunch.
Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 Posted January 12, 2018 Posted January 12, 2018 Nasty Newt: We score any knockdowns that, don't get knocked down, as a miss, if they were indeed a miss. A bad shot's pattern shows up pretty clearly as the column of shot hits the berm rather than the target. As I mentioned, we also ensure the KD targets are in good operating order, before we shoot the stage. Of course, if the spotters see a good hit on a KD that doesn't fall, we call it a good shot, demonstrating the importance of attentive spotting throughout the stage..
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted January 13, 2018 Posted January 13, 2018 21 hours ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said: Nasty Newt: We score any knockdowns that, don't get knocked down, as a miss, if they were indeed a miss. A bad shot's pattern shows up pretty clearly as the column of shot hits the berm rather than the target. As I mentioned, we also ensure the KD targets are in good operating order, before we shoot the stage. Of course, if the spotters see a good hit on a KD that doesn't fall, we call it a good shot, demonstrating the importance of attentive spotting throughout the stage.. How many pellets do spotters have to count to determine a "good hit"? Do you average the number of pellets per spotter or do two of the three have to be above the threshold? Does the threshold vary by pellet size?, velocity? Up is up and down is down. Why just invite controversy by making it so subjective?
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