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Tommy Reb

SASS Membership Fees

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As been mentioned, do you want SASS/game to continue or not? Would it hurt your feeling if your local SASS Club went away or stayed? How long would your Club exist without the Parent Organization? If it (SASS) went away, then what would you do for entertainment to replace the void? Cowboy guns are not hot items to sell other than for this sport.

It is not really a parent organization and would not change anything at the local level if it went away.

 

Colt SAA revolvers and Winchester rifles are probably the best firearms investment you can make.

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So, if I got this right, because of bad planning and a failed TV program we get to pay the freight for that? What will happen in the following years after membership drops because of this sudden and drastic increase? Will the remaining members be expected to pony up another 50% increase in annual dues? And the explination is just catagories. How much is being spent in those catagories? I am in business, and if I were to present something like that in a business meeting and then ask for all of the investors in our company to pay an additional 50% annually, I would be run out of town on a rail.

 

This really is sad!

 

And the effects will be felt, because, for every person that is willing to express how they feel, you will have 10 others that feel the same way!

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It is not really a parent organization and would not change anything at the local level if it went away.

 

Your point taken. I was attempting to ask, would your local club still exist if SASS HQ and SASS was no longer? Would people still come to the local matches and if so, for how long?

 

Colt SAA revolvers and Winchester rifles are probably the best firearms investment you can make.

 

That is a topic all in itself. There are not to many firearms that are good financial investments. American Rifleman article on Colt Snake pistols was interesting. Purchase a Python in 1970 and sell in prestine (sp) condition in 2015 does pretty good. Very small percentile of SASS shooters use Colts and Winchesters. Cut off 1897's and sxs that are basically open choke are not to desireable, nor SA Rugers or Colt clones (outside of SASS). Just my opinion and worth nothing.

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For those saying that noting would change on the local club level if SASS went away.

You are SO WRONG on that.

 

Without that uniform set of rules. Each club would make up there own.

And when you travel to new clubs. You won't know what you are getting into.

Yes. Some has a few different rules now. But for the most part. 99.9% is uniform under

the SASS rule book.

 

Would a new association pop up. Sure it would.

Was not that long ago that I was wanting one to.

But Misty has made changes that brought me back into the fold.

 

I do think they went up to much. Should have been $55. A $10 jump would have been a

little smoother I think. This big a jump they are going to have many drop out.

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For me is bang for the buck. Why should I pay to renew my membership. SASS keeps cutting back on services. Just what am I getting for my money. SASS no longer sends out the Chronicle. It has cut back on the matches at the ranch to one,EOT. The only reason I see to renew my membership is for the opportunity to shoot state, regional and national matches. Is that worth $65 plus match fees? I am not sure anymore maybe SASS has run it course and it's time to look at one of the another shooting sports.

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For those saying that noting would change on the local club level if SASS went away.

You are SO WRONG on that.

 

Without that uniform set of rules. Each club would make up there own.

And when you travel to new clubs. You won't know what you are getting into.

Yes. Some has a few different rules now. But for the most part. 99.9% is uniform under

the SASS rule book.

 

Would a new association pop up. Sure it would.

Was not that long ago that I was wanting one to.

But Misty has made changes that brought me back into the fold.

 

I do think they went up to much. Should have been $55. A $10 jump would have been a

little smoother I think. This big a jump they are going to have many drop out.

Correct on all counts . I'll gladly pay but I fear many won't .

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Correct on all counts . I'll gladly pay but I fear many won't .

I'm gladly renewing my membership. Love CAS/SASS, and $120 for my wife and I to enjoy time doing my favorite hobby for one year is a BARGAIN!

 

BD

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"I understand that all this is moot if you want to shoot at state level and above you gotta have a current number, so if you want to loose income from all the folks that shoot two or three monthlies ,24 to 36 shoots a year this is a perfect plan. It sounds a lot like when you tried to sell those big money memberships to the Ranch and nobody bought them. You are mistaken. Founders Club memberships sold out when the property was purchased; and in exchange those members receive perks and benefits at Founders Ranch. Their involvement and investment in Founders Ranch was a direct reflection of their confidence in SASS and the future of our sport. As a matter of fact, I could sell more every year if we hadn't closed that option some years ago.

 

This sounds like a missed revenue opportunity, why was that option closed? I did not mean to indicate that no one bought "any" of them. If memory serves some of them were large amounts, in the thousands. Did all of those sell out? Just wanted to clear up what "Big money memberships" was.

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Just my 2 cents, and thoughts and opinions.

Without SASS, "parent", rules would be Helter Skelter between clubs and TOs and MDs of each club. WO to the shooters that come and visit and didn't know their rules.

Without SASS, local clubs would have to find ways to recruit new shooters and ways to promote their clubs and special events. Since the wire might be gone, or they won't be listed.

Alias control without SASS, could lead to several shooters at your club with the same alias.

More time would be spent answering with squabbling's of, "well at our club we-----------".

How would we communicate without the "wire"??

Odd that when it comes to putting coins out work on equipment, re-loading gear, we'll go all out on the best. But when it comes time to support the organization that gave us all this, we resist.

I'm sure they are doing this to stay viable.

Let's wait for what Misty is going to post to explain the reasoning behind the increase. MT

Just to add

Some of these posts remind me of those scenes in westerns were someone has a rope and a mob is created to hang someone without a trial or hearing them out. I think its time to step back and wait for Misty to give the answers and reasoning.

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The amount spent on membership to SASS is very small compared to what is spent on ammo components, gas fees to shoot matches, sometimes motel rooms if a match is a distance away ($165 two weeks ago) cost of a travel trailer, campground fees, food. All of these things have escalated in price in the last five years. More so than the cost of a SASS membership. Joining most shooting clubs is much more expensive than SASS and a lot of them require membership in NRA. I am amazed at the negative comments that I am reading here. A 50% increase in a fee that is inexpensive to start out with is not much. Its almost as if some people cannot exist without somebody or something to be against. kR

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A lot of you think $20 isn't bad and for one person it's probably not. Add in a wife 2 kids and 2 more down the road. Now add that up when your already only getting to shoot 4-5 times a year plus travel more leather more guns more ammo. I don't get me wrong I love this sport and my extended family but there is a breaking point when you struggle already. Im looking forward to the breakdown of fees like others. This will probably end my families SASS shooting at least at State and above.

 

DC

+1

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The amount spent on membership to SASS is very small compared to what is spent on ammo components, gas fees to shoot matches, sometimes motel rooms if a match is a distance away ($165 two weeks ago) cost of a travel trailer, campground fees, food. All of these things have escalated in price in the last five years. More so than the cost of a SASS membership. Joining most shooting clubs is much more expensive than SASS and a lot of them require membership in NRA. I am amazed at the negative comments that I am reading here. A 50% increase in a fee that is inexpensive to start out with is not much. Its almost as if some people cannot exist without somebody or something to be against. kR

 

I don't think any of us are against SASS, nor do I begrudge them the money it takes to do what they do. What we are asking for is where does our money go? What are the benefits to the individual members, what are we paying for? Remember that there are only about 700 members that go to EOT on any given year, so for the majority of SASS members Founder's Ranch not a true benefit. It would seem that the only expenses are administrative.

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The amount spent on membership to SASS is very small compared to what is spent on ammo components, gas fees to shoot matches, sometimes motel rooms if a match is a distance away ($165 two weeks ago) cost of a travel trailer, campground fees, food. All of these things have escalated in price in the last five years. More so than the cost of a SASS membership. Joining most shooting clubs is much more expensive than SASS and a lot of them require membership in NRA. I am amazed at the negative comments that I am reading here. A 50% increase in a fee that is inexpensive to start out with is not much. Its almost as if some people cannot exist without somebody or something to be against.

The other things you mention all have real physical value (other than the NRA which is only $25 a year and gives you insurance). The complaint that I see is not that it is a 44% increase only, but that we dont know where the money is going and we dont feel like we are getting much for that money. From what was posted, it appears that EOT is being subsidised by all of the members and not just the ones in attendance. I assume that most state level matches are covered by the people actually signing up for and shooting at, not random members of that gun club. It has also been mention and not answered about whether we are "Members" or "Customers".

 

In short, what do we get for the money (actual facts, not possible of what may happen), are we members or customers and do we subsidise EOT and such?

 

As a side note, a more fair way to implement cost increases would have been to charge $1 or $2 that could go to SASS from each shooter at each club. That way the cost is spread to all shooters fairly based on how much they shoot. As it is, a lot of the lifers are the ones with no problem about the current way that SASS is trying to fix their problems without actually having to have it hit them as well.

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Here's the individual cost to join info...

 

U.S. International Life Membership
(Includes gold collectors badge) To Order
Click Amounts To Order
Click Amounts Basic Life $800

Patron $1000

Individual Annual Membership

First Year Basic Dues $75

Spouse/Significant Other $60

Dependents (16 & Under) $45

Renewals

Basic $65

Spouse/Significant Other $55

Junior (You pay full price for 1st Junior.
All other Juniors are half price) $40

Corporate Membership Corporate Membership (Annual Fee) $500

 

All SASS memberships include a monthly e-mailed electronic PDF and digital copy of The Cowboy Chronicle.

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The other things you mention all have real physical value (other than the NRA which is only $25 a year and gives you insurance). The complaint that I see is not that it is a 44% increase only, but that we dont know where the money is going and we dont feel like we are getting much for that money. From what was posted, it appears that EOT is being subsidised by all of the members and not just the ones in attendance. I assume that most state level matches are covered by the people actually signing up for and shooting at, not random members of that gun club. It has also been mention and not answered about whether we are "Members" or "Customers".

 

In short, what do we get for the money (actual facts, not possible of what may happen), are we members or customers and do we subsidise EOT and such?

 

As a side note, a more fair way to implement cost increases would have been to charge $1 or $2 that could go to SASS from each shooter at each club. That way the cost is spread to all shooters fairly based on how much they shoot. As it is, a lot of the lifers are the ones with no problem about the current way that SASS is trying to fix their problems without actually having to have it hit them as well.

So you have intimate knowledge of what it costs to put on EOT??

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So, if I got this right, because of bad planning and a failed TV program we get to pay the freight for that? What will happen in the following years after membership drops because of this sudden and drastic increase? Will the remaining members be expected to pony up another 50% increase in annual dues? And the explination is just catagories. How much is being spent in those catagories? I am in business, and if I were to present something like that in a business meeting and then ask for all of the investors in our company to pay an additional 50% annually, I would be run out of town on a rail.

 

This really is sad!

 

And the effects will be felt, because, for every person that is willing to express how they feel, you will have 10 others that feel the same way!

No, Marshal Flint... it is not because of bad planning or a failed TV program; I was simply trying to offer some examples that outline some gambles that didn't pay off.

 

No, we do not foresee another increase in annual dues.

 

Expense categories were listed on an example basis at this time. I am following legal advice to not post actual numbers at this time. My ability to share more information is pending approval.

 

I appreciate that you are in business as well; please understand, this statement wasn't presented at a business meeting- and, as you so eloquently put it... I may yet be run out on a rail.

 

There are so many misconceptions about SASS that it is extremely difficult to attempt to address them all in one sitting. My priority with this statement was to help folks understand the whys behind the increase in dues and the incorporation of affiliation and sanctioning fees.

 

Misty

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So you have intimate knowledge of what it costs to put on EOT??

Not a clue nor have I ever claimed to have a clue. My question has to do with what Misty moonshine posted.

 

Event Expenses

- Site Prep

- Food/Provisions

- Hospitality

- Equipment Rental

- Labor

- Entertainment

- Advertising

- PR/Marketing

But if you want ot go ahead and answer any of the questions I asked please feel free to do so. Since I dont know the answers I ask. Do YOU have intimate knowledge to any of my questions?

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I just renewed the 4 of us, myself, wife and my 2 kids. We only do 1 non-local shoot a year, and it is sponsored by my local club(California Black Powder Shoot-out). I don't have the time nor money to do any more than that right now. I only send money to SASS, NRA, and my local club as I support those who support me. And for what it is worth, every time I raise my prices at my small business I don't send out a mailer to every customer, nor feel I have to justify it on my website. Costs go up, it's just the way of life. If it is worth it to you, then pay, otherwise, don't. I paid for another year of shooting this great sport we call Cowboy Action Shooting.

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"I understand that all this is moot if you want to shoot at state level and above you gotta have a current number, so if you want to loose income from all the folks that shoot two or three monthlies ,24 to 36 shoots a year this is a perfect plan. It sounds a lot like when you tried to sell those big money memberships to the Ranch and nobody bought them. You are mistaken. Founders Club memberships sold out when the property was purchased; and in exchange those members receive perks and benefits at Founders Ranch. Their involvement and investment in Founders Ranch was a direct reflection of their confidence in SASS and the future of our sport. As a matter of fact, I could sell more every year if we hadn't closed that option some years ago.

 

This sounds like a missed revenue opportunity, why was that option closed? I did not mean to indicate that no one bought "any" of them. If memory serves some of them were large amounts, in the thousands. Did all of those sell out? Just wanted to clear up what "Big money memberships" was.

 

Hi Cahawbakid,

 

Thank you for your inquiry. I'm happy to explain the history of the Founders Club Memberships.

 

Founders Ranch was purchased in 2004. Since the original 1921 land grant, Founders Ranch had been beautifully preserved in its natural state. SASS' goal was to perpetuate the beauty and ambiance of the environment as it sought to develop the ranch as a world premiere Cowboy Action Shooting facility for its members. Extensive developmental work needed to be done to get the property developed into a shooting range. All the bays needed to be cut in, camping and parking areas, main event areas, drainage, infrastructure, roads... you name it. So, SASS offered special memberships to Founders Ranch- those members became the "Founders club". Funds from the memberships went directly into the development of the shooting facilities and western town. A number of membership levels were offered:

Bronze: $750

Silver: $1500

Gold: $2500

Platinum: $10K

**It is important to note that not all contributions that led to Founders club memberships were strictly monetary. In fact, many were awarded for equipment donations, in-kind trades, and hard work.

In exchange for their support, those folks receive(d) ongoing long-term benefits and exclusive discounts.

 

The founders club membership option was closed once the initial development needs were met.

 

In the past we have considered opening back up the Founders Club for memberships- but, several reasons have prevented us from doing so; including SASS' intent to move away from "VIP Environment"- to us, all SASS members and shooters are considered and treated like VIP's.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Misty

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It seems there is a lot of focus on the rate of increase, 44%. While that seems to be quite a lot, I'm thinking of it as $20. If the dues were $10 and were increased to $15, that would be a 50% increase but probably not cause near as much agony. I only pay for 1 membership so I don't get the bigger hit a family would, but from my perspective, I can find an extra $20 a year without much grief. Just my view.

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Just got thru shooting a local 3 day shoot, non sanctioned, the club is relatively small only 6 shooting bays, that shoot sold out in just under 2 weeks and was at 135 shooters.

 

Now there are several state shoots that can't do that. I'm not sure how many of the shooters where up to date members of SASS but I'm pretty sure several weren't .

 

I'm wondering if you won't start seeing more of these kinds of bigger non sanctioned matches filling the gaps as more people for their own reasons decide not to renew membership as the costs go up?

 

Not saying right or wrong, but could this be something that we start seeing more of?

 

Let's face facts, these clubs have in some cases have a lot of time money, blood, sweat and tears invested in the game, none of which was paid for or, done for them by the parent organization, and if having non sanctioned matches starts working better $ wise for them, do to less shooters keeping membership up to date to be able to shoot sanctioned matches, could this become one of the unintended consequences we hear about when a poorly thought out plan is suddenly implemented ?

 

Spades H. PS: pushed the button too quick! I did not mean to say poorly thought out as I'm sure a lot of thought went into the decision, what meant was poorly implemented! Sorry Misty.

 

I only say that because as you can see for yourself this probably could have been dished out a little better. In defense of SASS we all know hind sight is 20/20 and I know we have all been bitten by it before, don't make it any easier to deal with tho, good luck Misty I can see your a hard working person with a good heart trying your best to put this fire out.

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Like I mention in an earlier post, Been a life member for about 10 years. When I converted from annual to life, it was in a similar scenario...dues raising. I remember crunching the number to see if it would ever pay off for me, well it has. Glad I did it and plan to keep shooting til I cannot anymore (I will be 74 this year).

 

Remember one thing, SASS is a privately held business and as such can do most anything they want to do. Sure they could strong arm everyone and run off the dues paying shooters, but they continue to look for ways to keep the shooters involved. For example our Territorial Governors are involved in rule changes that can effect every shooter. Our dues go to the betterment of our sport and also provide a "return on investment' to the Wild Bunch.

 

Some of the decisions made recently are contrary to MY wishes, but that's business. I wish we still had a monthly, mailed Chronicle. I also don't like the SASS shooter fee for the big shoots. But I still want to be a member (and will because of my membership status) because I love the shooting and fellowship.

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"It seems that this thread could be considered instigating or an attempt at leading a "lynch mob" for the owners. It has definitely had some rude comments. A discussion of the topic is fine, rudeness is not.

 

Regards,

 

Allie"

 

 

I think you are overreacting. I'm a life member and while this doesn't impact my wallet, it does impact my enjoyment of the sport when people I enjoy shooting with are squeezed for more money. The owners may not owe the customers an explanation, but this is certainly not a lynch mob, it is an expression of displeasure. Perhaps you should go ban some poster for offering to cook a cat.

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If I remember my discussion when I renewed Monday, something about putting the Chronicle in print again, and then every quarter send it out?

 

I liked getting mine in the email to be honest..but that's just my opinion, we just re-upped for the 2nd year

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Posted · Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Conduct unbecoming
Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Conduct unbecoming

Not a clue nor have I ever claimed to have a clue. My question has to do with what Misty moonshine posted.

 

Event Expenses

- Site Prep

- Food/Provisions

- Hospitality

- Equipment Rental

- Labor

- Entertainment

- Advertising

- PR/Marketing

But if you want ot go ahead and answer any of the questions I asked please feel free to do so. Since I dont know the answers I ask. Do YOU have intimate knowledge to any of my questions?

Sorry can't read your small font, which I think you did on purpose so I won't waste anymore of my time.

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When I receive my renewal notice I won't bitch, whine or threaten to quit..............I'll gladly pay it

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Posted · Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Interpersonal conflict
Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Interpersonal conflict

Sorry can't read your small font, which I think you did on purpose so I won't waste anymore of my time.

I am not sure if you were trying to be clever with that response but so you know, the font was small due to the fact I copied and pasted from Misty Moonshine in response to your first post.

 

As far as your attitude, I will try not to waste any more of your time but I would like you to know that my wife and I have been very active trying to get new members into SASS and cowboy action shooting, One of the ladies we have brought twice is my sister in law who is from Michigan and not too far from where you are a TG. That means that you have succeeded in alienating at least three shooters from your clubs. I guess I should thank you for showing me who you are before I wasted any of MY time going to your shoots, so Thank You sir!

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on whether or not the extra money is worth it. Some of us are asking questions and getting no answers. But then again, you are a lifer and this doesnt effect you. To many of us and to a lot of the people we have been trying to get into this sport it does effect us.

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Posted · Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Interpersonal conflict
Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Interpersonal conflict

I am not sure if you were trying to be clever with that response but so you know, the font was small due to the fact I copied and pasted from Misty Moonshine in response to your first post.

 

As far as your attitude, I will try not to waste any more of your time but I would like you to know that my wife and I have been very active trying to get new members into SASS and cowboy action shooting, One of the ladies we have brought twice is my sister in law who is from Michigan and not too far from where you are a TG. That means that you have succeeded in alienating at least three shooters from your clubs. I guess I should thank you for showing me who you are before I wasted any of MY time going to your shoots, so Thank You sir!

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on whether or not the extra money is worth it. Some of us are asking questions and getting no answers. But then again, you are a lifer and this doesnt effect you. To many of us and to a lot of the people we have been trying to get into this sport it does effect us.

 

HA!! Excluding yourselves from those shoots is definitely your loss!! I don't always agree with my buddy Deuce, but he DOES have the best interests of S.A.S.S. and the shooters in mind.

 

As to the rest of it, I'm gonna' have to agree with J. Mark's point of view, entirely!!!

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Posted · Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Interpersonal conflict
Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Interpersonal conflict

Duece, I think you're out of line here! You won't find nicer people than Short Wagon and Mad Hattie who have brought several out to try shooting and joining our sport. If you can alienate Short Wagon that's saying something! As new shooters all he was doing was asking how much our membership goes to EOT or WR or whatever big SASS shoot. We all have to pay for these shoots and the meals which should cover everything so I think he has a legitimate question!

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I will pay my families renewal. I will gripe because it went up. I will then go to a shoot and hang around with people of great character, such as Deuce and his wonderful family, and remember just what I paid for.

Nope, hate the increase. Means a cut somewhere else less important. But I'm going to do it.

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Posted · Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Interpersonal conflict
Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Interpersonal conflict

 

HA!! Excluding yourselves from those shoots is definitely your loss!! I don't always agree with my buddy Deuce, but he DOES have the best interests of S.A.S.S. and the shooters in mind.

 

As to the rest of it, I'm gonna' have to agree with J. Mark's point of view, entirely!!!

Instead of even making an attempt to answer any of the questions that I brought up Duece Stevens chose to try to mock me and make it personal. That is not the kind of person I would like to associate with, but that is my choice and liek in other things, I will vote with my wallet.

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SASS' intent to move away from "VIP Environment"- to us, all SASS members and shooters are considered and treated like VIP's.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Misty

 

 

This is the attitude that had me back.

My first EOT. I felt like once they had my entry fee. They really did not want

to mess with you any farther. Just hurry up and leave. Or. Don't bother us. We are having

our VIP party. You can't come. But if you want to work it OK.

That an a attitude I got from some of the WB members on other things.

Misty was a breath of fresh air.

I know it took awhile to change the old attitude. But she has made a big turn in that.

 

Got to remember. With that VIP stuff.

You are not INCLUDING a few. You are EXCLUDING that other 600 that are there.

Folks don't like that.

Now pretty sure they still have it. But at least they don't make a big thing about it.

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I'm not a rich man and do not like price increases. But I love this game, and will pay the increase without hesitation. Nuff said.

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Posted · Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Conduct unbecoming
Hidden by Misty Moonshine, August 26, 2015 - Conduct unbecoming

Instead of even making an attempt to answer any of the questions that I brought up Duece Stevens chose to try to mock me and make it personal. That is not the kind of person I would like to associate with, but that is my choice and liek in other things, I will vote with my wallet.

This!! Is the SASS many know ... bullies and loudmouths that get a pass on the wire because they are in the "in" crowd ... We will just see if we can't embarrass or intimidate you. What will the administrator do about that??!? (nothing) ... I am surprised to not see the "I smell sheep" post yet!! This is starting to look like one of the old editorial threads ...

Keep drinking the cool-aid .. find a comfortable place to lay down.

You are absolutely right SW +1... many will vote with their wallet.

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For me is bang for the buck. Why should I pay to renew my membership. SASS keeps cutting back on services. Just what am I getting for my money. SASS no longer sends out the Chronicle. It has cut back on the matches at the ranch to one,EOT. The only reason I see to renew my membership is for the opportunity to shoot state, regional and national matches. Is that worth $65 plus match fees? I am not sure anymore maybe SASS has run it course and it's time to look at one of the another shooting sports.

Let's see... I've been a member since 1987... and shooting in this game since 1985... and since 1987, EVERY time I show up to shoot a match at an affiliated club, I'm asked two things, my SASS # and SASS Alias. I've been Griff at every single one of them. From Washington to Florida, California to Maine, I'm Griff, and anyone else claiming to be such is a wannabe! Frankly, that alone is worth the fees I've paid. I ain't all that creative, and if you'd paid attention, that probably describes a LOT of people, if the number of new members asking for help on an alias is any indication, coming up with a new alias everytime you want to shoot might be a little off-putting!

 

My son, who thought he'd been given a life membership after winning the Jr. title at EOT in 1990 quit paying his dues... and when, after his military service went to sign up at a match found that someone else had taken his alias... It was a little disconcerting to him to have to find a new alias, and with a SASS # of 1111, his previous one, "4 Aces" was perfect!

 

It may not seem like a big deal, but when you find your identity "stolen", you might come to think a little security is worth a small fee?

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