Stage DQ call

[MBFields]

Yesterday shooting at a match was staging shotgun and rifle. When I staged rifled I set it down and as I was removing my hands my thumb brushed the hammer and it went to the second notch.The hammer was fully down when i moved from loading table to stage guns.I let the to know what happened and was a stage dq. I replied did not move with hammer cocked but just happened. DQ. Did not argue.Reading rules and remembering ro1 course I do not think that it was a DQ but I would like to know for sure as am open to correction on this.

[Lead Ringer]

If you brought it to the RO's attention first and informed the RO this just happened when you where staging the gun. He should have allowed you to lower the hammer and shoot your stage.

With that said, if the RO spotted it and brought it to your attention take the penalty and walk away.

Regards,

Ringer

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Fine line here..

I'm thinkin' if your hands left the gun...

It was "staged" with the hammer cocked.. SDQ

If your hands haven't left the gun...

I'm thinkin' you can correct it...

 

Like I said ... fine line here..

 

Rance

Thinkin' I could be wrong

again

 

 

 

I'm also thinkin' that you brought up the problem to the RO..

Yeah.. rules is rules.. I'd a thought of given' a break..

but.. rules are rules..

 

Edit: I'm thinkin' when ya say "As I was removing my hands my thumb brushed the hammer"

kinda' might nail it.. that tells me the rifle was staged..

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

If you brought it to the RO's attention first and informed the RO this just happened when you where staging the gun. He should have allowed you to lower the hammer and shoot your stage.

With that said, if the RO spotted it and brought it to your attention take the penalty and walk away.

Regards,

Ringer

 

That sounds reasonable and proper. Remember the admonishment to "not be a hard-ass)

 

Lafitte

[Lead Ringer]

Just reviewed the RO 1 page 24-25 stage Disqualification.

It wasn't decocking a rifle with a live round under the hammer He says it wasn't, "not following loading table rules"? The stage hadn't started yet, So would allowing the shooter to correct it be wrong? Shooter brought it up first and wanted to do the right thing.

I don't agree with this being that fine of a line. I could not find anything that would warrant the SDQ.

I'm no expert and could be wrong, but trying to get a better grasp on the rules:)

Regards,

Ringer

[Captain Bill Burt]

Under SDQs ROI page 25 says: "Changing location with a live round under a cocked hammer or a gun with the hammer down on a live round. Changing location with a long gun with action closed and hammer cocked."

 

You seem OK here.

 

It also says on the same page: " Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures."

 

You seem OK here too.

 

No call for me.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I agree with you Lead Ringer. In this instance, allow the shooter to correct it and shoot.

[Deputy Cuny, SASS 35793L]

From the handbook:

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or

location once a round has gone down range.

[Lead Ringer]

From the handbook:

7. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or

location once a round has gone down range.

yes... we've all seen a cocked and loaded gun have a problem prior to the first shot and the RO stopping the shooter. Then allowing them to correct the problem and restart the stage. I view this as sorta the same thing.

[Tn Tombstone]

Does not seem much different than a shotgun closing during staging. No round down range, did not move with cocked firearm, brought it to the TO attention, IMO, no SDQ and TO was being a HA

 

How is that for use of acronyms

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

OK.. I can't find the rule for the SDQ either...

I did see where guns are staged with hammer down on empty chamber..

But I don't see the penalty for such..

 

Down at Sparta a couple years ago..

I staged my guns...

As I came back to the start shooting position..

The RO told me he had to give me a SDQ..

He showed me my rifle hammer was not down...

I took the call and went to the unloading table..

 

Don't see how this is different..

My stage.. the stage had not started... No round downrange..

Didn't question it or even think the RO was tryin' ta be a hard case..

 

Rance

Thinkin' I don't understand

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or

location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line

except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision

of the Timer Operator (TO). (This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the

TO to the shooter). The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification.

 

The shooter did not move with a cocked gun, so no penalty for that. He simply bumped the hammer by accident and it cocked. In this instance, the TO should have had the shooter de-cock under his direct supervision and allowed shooter to continue.

[Noz]

Fuzzy? Hammer was not cocked, nor was hammer down on empty chamber.

I would allow corrective action but can see both sides.

[Anvil Al #59168]

They made the wrong call.

 

You did not move with the hammer cocked.

 

In this case. Telling and showing the TO what happened. Then asking

for permission to de-cock is the right thing to do.

 

My opinion. He should have gave you permission to de-cock, watched you do it.

Then just go on from there.

 

You got screwed.

[Anvil Al #59168]

OK.. I can't find the rule for the SDQ either...

I did see where guns are staged with hammer down on empty chamber..

But I don't see the penalty for such..

 

Down at Sparta a couple years ago..

I staged my guns...

As I came back to the start shooting position..

The RO told me he had to give me a SDQ..

He showed me my rifle hammer was not down...

I took the call and went to the unloading table..

 

Don't see how this is different..

My stage.. the stage had not started... No round downrange..

Didn't question it or even think the RO was tryin' ta be a hard case..

 

Rance

Thinkin' I don't understand

 

 

Totally different.

In your case it sounds like you MOVED from the loading table with a cocked loaded gun.

 

In his case. He did not move with a cocked loaded gun.

He knew when it happened and it was AFTER he had moved. But while he was staging

it, and was not moving with it.

 

 

NOT the same thing.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

 

 

Totally different.

In your case it sounds like you MOVED from the loading table with a cocked loaded gun.

 

In his case. He did not move with a cocked loaded gun.

He knew when it happened and it was AFTER he had moved. But while he was staging

it, and was not moving with it.

 

 

NOT the same thing.

 

I'll abide by that...

 

Rance

Thinkin' it was because it had left the shooters hands (control)

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Does not seem much different than a shotgun closing during staging. No round down range, did not move with cocked firearm, brought it to the TO attention, IMO, no SDQ and TO was being a HA

 

How is that for use of acronyms

 

Great minds think alike.

 

 

NO CALL!

 

 

..........Widder

[Kirk James]

I thought this was addressed in an early thread with Pale Wolf. My understanding is as long as the shooter does not take a step and addresses the issue with the RO he can de-cock the firearm even if occurs between the loading table and stage.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Assuming facts in the original post is correct......

I would say that the call is on the hard ass side of the fence.

I am also assuming that the TO did not accept your explanation of how the hammer got that way and is assuming you came to the line with it on half cock.

 

I have seen this situation occur many times when a scabbard is used to stage the rifle. Corrective action - Pick up rifle under the direction of the TO. Slowly partially open the action to show empty chamber. Close action. De-cock with muzzle pointed downrange. Re-stage more carefully.

I have also seen the string on a hay bale catch the hammer and cock it when staging or repositioning.

[Rye Miles #13621]

If a shooter comes up to the stage with the hammer back on his rifle it's a SDQ for sure, however in this case the way it was explained I would have given the shooter a pass and let him decoct the hammer which he said was NOT all the way back anyway. If the trigger was pulled it would not have gone off on the second click. Isn't that a "safety" position?

Rye

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

In your description I would have had you decock the firearm, no call.

[Tumblin Tom]

First off the shooter pointed out to the TO that his gun was put on half cock by mistake with his thumb while staging it. Now as per the rules. De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location Once a round has gone down range. No round had gone down range yet. No gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision of the Timer Operator. He brought it up to the TO plus it was not cocked were pulling the trigger would of fired the weapon. Here he should of been allowed to safely lower the hammer. Remember the Or in the rule. He could of lowered the hammer on his own since the weapon was not brought to the firing line cocked. As brought up before just like setting the double barrel shotgun down and closing and you just open it. In no way does this action constitute a SDQ.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello Folks,

 

I don't think anyone has quoted the correct rule yet. I found it on the Pocket RO Card, p. 28 of the ROI.

Holstering or staging gun with hammer cocked (not fully down) or down (on a live round) √ in the SDQ box.

 

That said, I think I'd let it go in this specific situation with a warning to be more careful next time.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Sounds like the only hard ass here was the TO. Not often we see so many in agreement! BTW - one more vote for the let him de-cock the rifle.

 

CR

[Captain Bill Burt]

Hello Folks,

 

I don't think anyone has quoted the correct rule yet. I found it on the Pocket RO Card, p. 28 of the ROI.

Holstering or staging gun with hammer cocked (not fully down) or down (on a live round) √ in the SDQ box.

 

That said, I think I'd let it go in this specific situation with a warning to be more careful next time.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

I didn't quote that because it didn't seem to apply. From my perspective the gun isn't necessarily staged just because you put it down. For example if Shotgun and Rifle are staged on separate tables I'll usually put the appropriate gun down on whichever table is closest to the LT, stage the second long gun on its table, then go back and adjust the first one (which I can't do easily at first since I still have a long gun in one hand). Only after I positioned the gun in its final resting place is it staged.

 

If you take the position that the gun is staged as soon as you let go of it, then the question becomes did he completely let go of it (staged correctly) then brush the hammer and move it to half cock? I've seen this particular instance while TOing. The shooter's shirt sleeve hooked the hammer and cocked it fully, but didn't move the gun other than a little wiggle. I instructed her to decock and proceed. I can't see making an SDQ call in that case even if some small part of the shooter maintained contact with the long gun.

[Griff]

Allie, I believe that only applies specifically to handguns, as every internal hammer shotgun is cocked as you open the action... in addition, one of the exceptions is restaging a long gun, as it can now be open w/a live round on the carrier; in which instance the hammer would be cocked.

 

SDQ for unsafe firearm handling... IF the rifle is brought to the line in any condition other than hammer fully down on an empty chamber. IF the definitions for safe firearms handling are as outlined on pps 15-16 of the ROI Manual, para 12:

 

11. Safe conditions of firearms during a course of fire are as follows:

• Revolver(s)

Safe for movement in hand, while holstering, and safe to leave the shooter’s hand.

• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber,

• Hammer fully down on an expended round (may not be originally staged in this condition

but may be restaged in this condition).

• While the above restrictions apply, there are additional considerations for the Gunfighter.

When shooting “Gunfighter Style,” a gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent

to engage another revolver sequence. Once cocked, all rounds are to be expended prior

to holstering unless the revolvers were drawn at the wrong time or a revolver/ammunition

malfunction has occurred. Physical stage design may allow a competitor shooting

“Gunfighter Style” to stage or restage revolvers between firearm sequences.

• Rifle

Safe to leave the shooters hands.

• Empty, action open

• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for

further use)

Safe for movement rifle in hand only

• Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed

• Action open, round on carrier or in chamber

• Shotgun

Safe to leave the shooters hands.

• Empty, action open

Safe for movement shotgun in hand only

• Action open, round in chamber or on carrier

• Hammer(s) fully down on empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed.

then other actions are therefor "unsafe". Unless allowed elsewhere... as in the case where a firearm is picked up/cycled out of order or in the wrong location. In such an instance there is a provision for the shooter to correct the action. Doesn't seem out of line to allow for a correction in this instance.

[MBFields]

For clarification, gun was not moved with hammer down, Happened as was removing hand staging long gun. Interprataton is 9/10's of the law. Letter of the law and spirit of the law? As the rules define as Allie stated, with hammer cocked and that was not the case, can be interpreted differently as I see it as meaning moving or prior to. Posted this so could know right call as this will happen again and we should be on same page. Thanks.

[Matthew Duncan]

I didn't quote that because it didn't seem to apply...

Go back and read the OP, "when I staged rifle..."

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Allie, I believe that only applies specifically to handguns, as every internal hammer shotgun is cocked as you open the action... in addition, one of the exceptions is restaging a long gun, as it can now be open w/a live round on the carrier; in which instance the hammer would be cocked.

 

SDQ for unsafe firearm handling... IF the rifle is brought to the line in any condition other than hammer fully down on an empty chamber. IF the definitions for safe firearms handling are as outlined on pps 15-16 of the ROI Manual, para 12:

then other actions are therefor "unsafe". Unless allowed elsewhere... as in the case where a firearm is picked up/cycled out of order or in the wrong location. In such an instance there is a provision for the shooter to correct the action. Doesn't seem out of line to allow for a correction in this instance.

Now I may get into trouble with the ROC... If it only applied to handguns, it should have said handguns or revolvers.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

no call

[Wyatt]

Refer to the RO III Handbook pg 1

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Refer to the RO III Handbook pg 1

 

Based on the OP information (& post #27) (i.e. the hammer was inadvertently cocked AFTER being set down to begin the stage), the SDQ was a BS call.

IMO

(now we wait for the T/O in question to come on here & explain HIS side of the story...right??)

 

The Pocket RO rule regarding 'hammers cocked' implies 'with the action closed' as it applies to long guns...otherwise, no movement would be allowed with lever/pump guns or hammerless SG's on the line...& they couldn't be restaged "open & empty" at the end of the shooting string as the hammers are COCKED upon opening.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

 

Based on the OP information (& post #27) (i.e. the hammer was inadvertently cocked AFTER being set down to begin the stage), the SDQ was a BS call.

IMO

(now we wait for the T/O in question to come on here & explain HIS side of the story...right??)

 

The Pocket RO rule regarding 'hammers cocked' implies 'with the action closed' as it applies to long guns...otherwise, no movement would be allowed with lever/pump guns or hammerless SG's on the line...& they couldn't be restaged "open & empty" at the end of the shooting string as the hammers are COCKED upon opening.

+1, that carries a lot of weight, dunt it????

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

While RO'ing , I had a shooter inform me hammer on her rifle got caught on her shirt and it cocked, I said lower it get yourself ready to shoot. Some of this stuff is just common sense, give somebody a penalty for this is BS as stated.

 

AO

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

While RO'ing , I had a shooter inform me hammer on her rifle got caught on her shirt and it cocked, I said lower it get yourself ready to shoot. Some of this stuff is just common sense, give somebody a penalty for this is BS as stated.

 

AO

Yep, this can be found in the Common Sense Guidlines ROIII 23.2.3 Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy