The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Was that T/O even a RO1 or RO2? Still, it was a 110% BS call! Make sure that T/O see's this tread...... LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Yep, this can be found in the Common Sense Guidlines ROIII 23.2.3 Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy RO3 thats funny we need one rule book & some common sense AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 RO3 thats funny we need one rule book & some common sense AO PWB has often referred to the ROIII... and we do only have one rule book... and TWO training manuals on how to interpret it! Follow these four rules ALL the time and you'll stay out of trouble 99% of the time: 1. NEVER, at any time, under any circumstance, point any gun in the remotest direction of any person. 2. Only load your guns AT the loading table... once loaded, STOP fiddling w/'em until you're at the firing line & the buzzer sounds... 3. Double, triple and maybe quadruple check that your guns ARE empty at the unloading table... STOP fiddlin' w/'em, PERIOD. Until you're at the loading table again. 4. Enjoy exercising your 2nd Amendment right. The fate of the universe does NOT hang on the outcome of your match... YET! Not to worry, we'll let you know when it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTPOCKETS Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 +1 for no call and besides it was only a monthly . Good learning opportunity. Gen. MT Pockets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucky Chambers Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 De-cocking may not be done to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone down range. NO gun may be de-cocked on the firing line except by pointing it down range and pulling the trigger or while under the direct supervision of the Timer Operator (TO). (This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the TO to the shooter). The penalty for de-cocking is a Stage Disqualification. The shooter did not move with a cocked gun, so no penalty for that. He simply bumped the hammer by accident and it cocked. In this instance, the TO should have had the shooter de-cock under his direct supervision and allowed shooter to continue. I don't have any of these handbooks or certifications, and agree it's a BS call, but the part in bold stands out to me [even though everyone seems to be ignoring it]. It said gun may be de-cocked under supervision AND de-cocking is a SD. There was nothing saying it's not a SD if done a certain way. Correct me if I'm wrong, but even at a half-cock position, dropping the hammer would require it to be fully cocked first which would then be de-cocked. If it was done my way, a cocked hammer wouldn't be a penalty at all if it's over an empty chamber...but rules is rules and you know what they say about rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Lucky, you can read/download the Shooters Handbook and the RO manuals here: http://www.sassnet.com/Shooters-Handbook-001A.php The RO classes are usually given at the state or higher classes. Check with your club TG about local classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brocius Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 The problem with these descriptions is how inaccurate they end up being. First the gun was moved from the loading table to the stage with the hammer down...then it was not moved with the hammer down. "Brushing the hammer moved it to the second notch". What did you mean by second notch...half cocked position or full cocked position? Regardless of whether it was moved from the hammer down or half cocked position...going to the full cocked position requires a little more than a brushing movement IMO. Either that or this is one really slicked up SASS Rifle! Quite frankly I am not sure how it happened...but the apparent end result was that the gun was staged in the fully cocked position. The end result is something we don't want to see at our matches. I am not an RO, however, I would certainly not have been upset with a SDQ. Maybe I am misreading what happened...but what happened has not been clearly identified. Also....guns slicked up to the point that "brushing" them fully cocks them should be questioned also! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancho Roy Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 my thumb brushed the hammer and it went to the second notch Was the rifle "cocked" ???? Is second notch considered cocked? Just want to know....Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 REF: RO1 p.29 "Glossary of Terms" - COCKED REF: RO1 p.30 "......."............."........" - HAMMER DOWN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 ... Also....guns slicked up to the point that "brushing" them fully cocks them should be questioned also! Questioned by whom?...and why? What answer would one be looking for?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancho Roy Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I'll fill in the blanks for Pale Wolf........ Cocked = Hammer not fully down (full, half cock or safety notch)Hammer Down =Hammer fully down at its final resting position Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Brocius Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Questioned by whom?...and why? What answer would one be looking for?? Pale Wolf, Having never owned a CAS firearm that did not require a firm and positive action to action to cock, I question how a "brushing" motion could cock a firearm. Even if catching a hammer on something I would be very aware that something was wrong before actually cocking a hammer. Perhaps we have a difference in word usage here? Brush to me means an inadvertent but inconsequential contact. Like brushing against some one as opposed to bumping into someone. And if a CAS firearm is slicked up to the point that they can be cocked through inconsequential contact...would that not be a safety concern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Pale Wolf, Having never owned a CAS firearm that did not require a firm and positive action to action to cock, I question how a "brushing" motion could cock a firearm. Even if catching a hammer on something I would be very aware that something was wrong before actually cocking a hammer. Perhaps we have a difference in word usage here? Brush to me means an inadvertent but inconsequential contact. Like brushing against some one as opposed to bumping into someone. And if a CAS firearm is slicked up to the point that they can be cocked through inconsequential contact...would that not be a safety concern? So what call would you make for this very slicked up gun? I'm also curious as to what the standard is that allows us to differentiate between acceptable and unacceptable slicking for a rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 If a rifle hammer spring was so light that mearly brushing it would cause it to cock, the gun would not fire reliably in the first place, if at all. It takes a pretty hard rake against a hammer to cause it to move anywhere. Hung up solidly on clothing, then possibly. Brushed with the hand, not a chance. That story don't wash. He made a mistake, and was trying to correct it without penalty. Not being a hard ass, just being realistic. Gunsmithed and shot too many of them to buy that story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 So what call would you make for this very slicked up gun? I'm also curious as to what the standard is that allows us to differentiate between acceptable and unacceptable slicking for a rifle? I don't know the answer but I'm glad the question was asked. Inadvertent brushing that would cock a hammer just doesn't sound right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 To be clear I'm not questioning the statement about how the hammer was cocked, I wasn't there. I'm questioning the idea of calling a penalty on someone for having a gun that is 'too slicked up'. How could you possibly make an objective determination of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Pale Wolf, Having never owned a CAS firearm that did not require a firm and positive action to action to cock, I question how a "brushing" motion could cock a firearm. Even if catching a hammer on something I would be very aware that something was wrong before actually cocking a hammer. Perhaps we have a difference in word usage here? Brush to me means an inadvertent but inconsequential contact. Like brushing against some one as opposed to bumping into someone. And if a CAS firearm is slicked up to the point that they can be cocked through inconsequential contact...would that not be a safety concern? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 What Phantom said! BTW, I HAVE seen rifles most notably but also revolvers which could be cocked to the safety notch just by getting 'brushed'. Seen it done and had it happen. In such a case, and this condition is not corrected PROPERLY, in the words of my very good pard BJZ.....sucks to be you!! Know your equipment, know your abilities and know the rules. Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I just pulled out my '73, which was "slicked up" by a reliable gunsmith, and yes, all I have to do is merely brush the hammer and it will go to "safety". This gun is in no way unsafe. But, the safety notch is considered cocked. So, please don't call the OP a liar. It is a legitimate question about something that could easily happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 If a rifle hammer spring was so light that mearly brushing it would cause it to cock, the gun would not fire reliably in the first place, if at all. It takes a pretty hard rake against a hammer to cause it to move anywhere. Hung up solidly on clothing, then possibly. Brushed with the hand, not a chance. That story don't wash. He made a mistake, and was trying to correct it without penalty. Not being a hard ass, just being realistic. Gunsmithed and shot too many of them to buy that story. You haven't had a hold of Red River Ray's rifle, or mine for that matter. It'll easily go to the safety notch with only the slightest "brush" of contact. And no!! It ain't a safety risk to anyone!!!! No. Simple and straight to the point!! +1,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBFields Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 I am not trying for attention or controversy. Really had to think about posting but decided for those who have questions. This is a new miroku win 73. They have rebounding firing pins. You can adjust hammer tension with spring screw underneath. The hammer can be very light hammer down but will still work fine. In the best interest of posting try not to call people liars or uncredible.What I posted is what happened. Always double check hammer before leaving loading table. Rio Brazos Kid, the story does wash. Whether you or anyone else believes is up to you. As said before I brought to attention of To. It was their call and I abided by that no argument after explaining what happened. I only posted so I could get a handle on correct call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBFields Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 Also second notch is called safety for those wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 I have discovered the meaning of life while reading this thread. Here is how I will sum it up: 100's of millions of people will believe that if you like your insurance, you can keep your insurance. 100's of millions of people will believe that if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor.....PERIOD! But, on that rare occasion where 1 Cowboy brushes his hammer on his rifle and it puts the rifle on half cock, why is it so hard to believe that? After all, thats what hammers do. I believed it from the original post. But, I never believed in the insurance and doctor story..... ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 All so very true, Widder. 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Also second notch is called safety for those wondering. in no way doubting that the hammer was brushed back. and I doubt I would have called a penalty, but I wasnt there. I guess thats another advantage to having a LTO, they could double check and verify to the TO that the hammer was down when you left the LT. the rule says hammer fully down on mt chamber, so basically does not recognize a "safety" notch. I've always wondered if the old cowboys carried their Winchesters with one in the chamber and hammer on the safety notch or not. I reckon if they was expecting a passel of indians or bad guys they would want it fully loaded, but if just riding across the range they would have the chamber mt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Sucks to be you.....please be more careful next time. Please take your guns to the unloading table. NEXT SHOOTER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 Sucks to be you.....please be more careful next time. Please take your guns to the unloading table. NEXT SHOOTER Hard a$$... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Persimmon Dan, SASS #42428 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 So why not file off the safety knotch, then this issue wouldn't come up..unless it was at full cock??? Would this be illegal?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 that wud be an internal mod that cannot be seen! one of the easiest ways to increase hammer speed without going to a stiff spring...don't ask how I know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throckmorton,23149 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 I had to call sdq on a shooter who did come to the line with hammer on half-cock on his rifle. He went home and removed that troublesome little notch...his words..and said 'that'll fix that' ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 So why not file off the safety knotch, then this issue wouldn't come up..unless it was at full cock??? Would this be illegal?? Since we don't use the "safety",some do, So'se not to have a problem like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 I would think that altering the gun would be the last thing a shooter would want to do. Really makes no sense. You might want to hunt with that gun sometimes and having the safety notch would come in very handy for those occasions. Truthfully, just how hard is it to make sure your hammer is fully down at a match????? RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 I do one thing fast........I get on and off the trigger of my rifle fast........fast enough that the trigger will fall into the safety notch.......a lot None of my competition rifles have or will ever have safety notches again PS: Ask around you be surprised with the answer you get Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 this dang horse must have nine lives!!!! bang, BANG! BANG!! BANG!! BANG!! BOOM!!!!!! KABOOM!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted April 5, 2014 Share Posted April 5, 2014 I would think that altering the gun would be the last thing a shooter would want to do. Really makes no sense. You might want to hunt with that gun sometimes and having the safety notch would come in very handy for those occasions. Truthfully, just how hard is it to make sure your hammer is fully down at a match????? RBK Back on planet earth in real cowboy shooting it's very common to get rid of the safety notch. I don't know any cowboys that hunt with their MAIN match guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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