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Rio Grande Glenn

gun fighters you make the call please

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today on double tap targets there were several occasions when they were almost simultaneous shots on the same target. The ro made the call that these were minor safety violations. But did not inform the shooter that they had been called as safeties until the second time when he declared a stage DQ for two minor safety violations.

I have been shooting gun fighters since the spring and it is a problem on double taps to space the shots sense to do so im put a delay in the action. opinions please.

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A) You call a penalty on someone, you let them know about it right away, if not while announcing the score, then at the unloading table.

 

B/ What did the spotters say? Were they mentioning the same thing? There is no hard and fast rule as to time between shots on a double tap, gun fighter or not, I've seen two handed shooters double tap to where it is dang hard to tell.

 

Sounds like the TO may have been a bit strict, but not being there it's hard to say for sure.

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I'm not a gunfighter, but I've RO'd a bunch of them.

 

There is NO PENALTY called out by the SASS rulebooks for firing both revolvers simultaneously; the book says they should be fired separately to facilitate counting. Plus, you mention in the OP that the shots were almost simultaneous.

 

Also, two minor safeties do NOT equal a stage DQ. You may accumulate any number of minor safeties until the TO or Posse Marshal decides you are actually being unsafe. Then you may be asked to leave the range for "unsafe gun handling"!

 

Any penalty called on a shooter should be brought to his attention at the immediate conclusion of the stage.

 

That RO needs to go back to school. I would have asked him to show me in the rulebooks the justification for his calls!! (Yes, I carry current rulebooks in my guncart).

 

I really get tired of folks making up their own rules....

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thanks for the feedback. I looked in the rulebook before I made the post to see exactly what it said. The whole simultaneous shot for gunfighters area should be clarified as it is very subjective. Being the shooter I could hear two shots but perhaps others couldn't it was only the RO that mentioned it not the counters to my knowledge. I had contemplated doing a late entry for end of trail as I live close to the ranch. I now think that my gun fighter abilities are not ready for prime time since I know I would shoot at least some double taps the same way and would be very upset if I was penalized at a major match.

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From ROII, 2012 edition, page 10:

"When shooting with two guns, both revolvers may be cocked at the same time but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring."

 

I believe the correct call should have been a procedual the first time it occurred, on the next stage if it occurred again then it becomes a SDQ, and if it occurred a 3rd time then it becomes a MDQ.

 

From RO I manual 2012 edition:

10 Second Penalties:

"Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing."

In any event the shooter should have been notified when it occurred on the fist stage where he/she shot both revolvers simultaneously.

 

TB

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This comes up a lot......ifin' I remember correctly you seem to get two schools of thought......one says you CAN'T fire the guns at the exact same time and the other says you can.

 

Again IF I remember correctly it always ends up with, "if you choose to do it and make spotting that tough on the spotters you get what you get so don't complain with the results......good or bad.

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From ROII, 2012 edition:

"When shooting with two guns, both revolvers may be cocked at the same time but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring."

 

I believe the correct call should have been a procedual the first time it occurred, on the next stage if it occurred again then it becomes a SDQ, and if it occurred a 3rd time then it becomes a MDQ.

 

From RO I manual 2012 edition:

10 Second Penalties:

"Failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category in which you are competing."

In any event the shooter should have been notified when it occurred on the fist stage where he/she shot both revolvers simultaneously.

 

TB

You are correct. The call is for shooting out of category. First time is a procedural, second is a SDQ and third is MDQ.

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key word was ALMOST. Hence no call! Had they been at same time then the P.

 

TO needs to take RO classes again. for various reasons!

 

pbcc

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Did the TO step the timer to see if there were shots picked up by the device? If so, the TO needs to take that for an answer. If not, let the shooter know the device is not picking up both shots and it may be considered as firing both guns at once.

Yes, the penalty for shooting out of category is a progressive penalty, P, SDQ, MDQ.

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You are correct. The call is for shooting out of category. First time is a procedural, second is a SDQ and third is MDQ.

+1

 

The rules are pretty clear but some just don't like the rule so . . .

 

Yes, it is sorta subjective, just like calling misses can be sometimes. No real good way around that without stopping to paint targets for every shooter.

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And, no the the idea of using the timer is not valid.

 

Many times it does not pick up all shots and sometimes it picks up shots from another stage. It is just another dodge to try to get away with not meeting the rule.

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I don't know where the minor safety could have come from unless you moved with the guns cocked

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I don't know where the minor safety could have come from unless you moved with the guns cocked

That would be a SDQ.

 

From page 25 of RO1 under Stage Disqualification:

Changing location with a live round under a cocked hammer or a gun with the hammer down on a live round.

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And, no the the idea of using the timer is not valid.

 

Many times it does not pick up all shots and sometimes it picks up shots from another stage. It is just another dodge to try to get away with not meeting the rule.

It is most certainly valid. It is a device that is used to record the official time of the stage. Depending on the stage, proximity of other shooters and proper usage of the timer, it should be used to determine double shots. If a stage calls for 10, 10, 4+ and 24 shots are recorded, you have your answer. To not use the timer is to limit yourself to someones ability to hear split second shots.

A good TO uses all the tools available.

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Nevermind.

 

 

..........Widder

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Sounds like the TO just has a burr under his saddle about GFer shooting both at once thing.

 

Over stepped a bit from the sounds of it.

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Wow...

 

Just wow.

 

Kinda what I wanted to say.

 

 

..........Widder

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It is most certainly valid. It is a device that is used to record the official time of the stage. Depending on the stage, proximity of other shooters and proper usage of the timer, it should be used to determine double shots. If a stage calls for 10, 10, 4+ and 24 shots are recorded, you have your answer. To not use the timer is to limit yourself to someones ability to hear split second shots.

A good TO uses all the tools available.

Not necessarily! How do you know the timer didn't pick up a stray shot from a neighboring bay? It doesn't happen often, but it does happen, I've seen it myself on more than one occasion. The manuals even explicitly states that it isn't necessary to pick up every shot, only the last one. I personally would not call a P just because the timer only showed 8 shots recorded in a 10 shot pistol string for a gunfighter. None of the manuals mention using the timer for this purpose, but they do mention not designing stages for rifle last due to issues picking up the shots. From my perspective the only use for the timer is to record the raw time.

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I am not a Gunfighter. Per the second post by the shooter, the spotters didn't say anything. I'm reading into that that they were able to count the shots. It was strictly the TO that had an issue with the double taps. If the spotters didn't have an issue spotting/counting, then the TO needs to perform his function (watch for safety issues, procedurals, etc) and let the spotters do theirs (count shots, misses, etc).

 

There might be "discussion" that the TO did call a procedural. But if the spotters counted all the shots, then there was not a procedural to begin with.

 

+1 on penalties being announced at the time they are given.

 

Barry Sloe

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If any of you have shot with the Cat Boys. They shoot so fast that the shots are very very very close together. There would be no penalties except any misses and if shots are very close then sometimes you get more misses because of that. But to my knowledge they have never been given a procedural. Cobra Cat shoots Cowboy and Lightning Cat was a gunfighter.

 

The safeties would never have even come up and 2 safeties is NOT a SDQ.

 

the RO needs to go back to school. You need to tell someone if you are giving them a penalty.

 

Painted Filly

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It is most certainly valid. It is a device that is used to record the official time of the stage. Depending on the stage, proximity of other shooters and proper usage of the timer, it should be used to determine double shots. If a stage calls for 10, 10, 4+ and 24 shots are recorded, you have your answer. To not use the timer is to limit yourself to someones ability to hear split second shots.

A good TO uses all the tools available.

Seriously. I can make two distinct shots occur that don't show up on the timer. So how would you call that one?

 

Stan

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Wow...

Just wow.

+1. .............

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Guys, I'm not saying if the device only shows 8 penalize them, I'm saying use the device as a tool. If you think they double tapped and the timer shows all shots, it's not a penatly thing.

As I said, depending on the stage, proximity of other shooters etc, it's a case by case call.

The TO should use all the tools available to see the shooters point of view.

I TO some fast GF shooters, Bobcat Tyler being one, and have never not heard distinct shots.

Like the OP stated, "almost", which to me sounds like "if you think it's a hit, it's a hit", meaning if it's "almost" then it's not "same time"

And two MSV's is nothing but two MSV's.

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I never trust a shot counter for the reasons noted above. I would have relied on my spotters, if they were having trouble we would have went from there. TO was wrong in this instance.

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If the TO wants to make a call that is as subjective as this one, he should FIRST look at the timer to determine if the correct number of shots are recorded, if they are... BOD to the shooter. Sure, one of those "could" be from another stage, but they also might very well be the shots required by that stage. I don't believe that you can discount the evidence in hand out of turn because of what "might" have happened.

 

And by the same token, lack of the correct number of shots on the timer is again, not PROOF of an infraction of the rules.

 

Sometimes judgement calls are necessary. Do all "due diligence" to ensure that the call you make is a fair one. Both to that shooter and all other shooters at the match.

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Note to shooter......

 

Request a different TO next time you shoot.

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I think there is more to the original OP than stated..........almost........in his opinion. There is always two sides to a story. Lots of folks will get a P at EOT that drive across country to attend

 

Yes, as stated the penalty, MSV, was the wrong call

 

I've been under the impression that the TO could call all penalties but a miss all by their self

 

It is my understanding that most timers can not pick up split times under .1 seconds

 

PS: WOW!

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I had the pleasure of shooting with Tex in the Black Powder side match, 2012 Last Stand. He is fast and accurate with 7 1/2" barrels.

With the BOOM of 44-40 full loads and his speed, it almost sounded like a single shot.

 

Tex had a comment on this subject, but I can not accurately quote him other than it was said with humor.

 

I would not trust my senses to determine that two shots were fired at exactly the same time and impose any type of penalty.

While shooting my BP revolvers and rifle, I am often not aware of the report. I only sense the recoil and smoke.

 

My CE Pocket Pro II has a default value of .11 sec for shot dead time (interval between shots). It can be adjusted down to .05 seconds. If the Gunfighter fired with .04 seconds, or less, between the two shots a timer can not pick that up and will erroneously record one shot.

 

I say any TO that calls two simultaneous shots on a Gunfighter is on shaky grounds, even if the TO relied upon his timer for the call.

 

Sorry for this wordy comment, I watched all the audio experts hearing in State v. George Zimmerman.

 

Amarillo Rattler

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I think there is more to the original OP than stated..........almost........in his opinion. There is always two sides to a story. Lots of folks will get a P at EOT that drive across country to attend

 

Yes, as stated the penalty, MSV, was the wrong call

 

I've been under the impression that the TO could call all penalties but a miss all by their self

 

It is my understanding that most timers can not pick up split times under .1 seconds

 

PS: WOW!

 

 

Howdy JEDI Wyatt.

 

My Timer is one of those real good Competition brand and it WILL NOT pick up splits less than .08

 

AND...I got a video to prove it..... :D

 

 

..........Widder

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Guys, I'm not saying if the device only shows 8 penalize them, I'm saying use the device as a tool. If you think they double tapped and the timer shows all shots, it's not a penatly thing.

As I said, depending on the stage, proximity of other shooters etc, it's a case by case call.

The TO should use all the tools available to see the shooters point of view.

I TO some fast GF shooters, Bobcat Tyler being one, and have never not heard distinct shots.

Like the OP stated, "almost", which to me sounds like "if you think it's a hit, it's a hit", meaning if it's "almost" then it's not "same time"

And two MSV's is nothing but two MSV's.

 

I don't think you understand what we are saying......timers CAN NOT be used for the intent you are suggesting because they are not 100% accurate when it comes to picking up very small split times. The shot difference is permanently set on some timers (can't pick up splits less than .05) and on some timers they can be adjust up or down, but either way the TO can not use the timer to make the call as to whether or not someone shot at the same time, or had a gap in between.

 

A procedural for shooting at the same time is a call that needs to be made by using your ears, not the timer.

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NimbleSOB, I did get the story and more ;)

 

I seen that video. I don't have to worry about split times except when Stan shoots GF

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I don't think you understand what we are saying......timers CAN NOT be used for the intent you are suggesting because they are not 100% accurate when it comes to picking up very small split times. The shot difference is permanently set on some timers (can't pick up splits less than .05) and on some timers they can be adjust up or down, but either way the TO can not use the timer to make the call as to whether or not someone shot at the same time, or had a gap in between.

 

A procedural for shooting at the same time is a call that needs to be made by using your ears, not the timer.

 

 

 

Plus when on a common firing line it's not uncommon to pickup shots from other stages.......

 

Stan

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If, for some reason, the spotters can't count all the shots, and the targets are not freshly painted, and all 10 empties come out of the pistols at the unloading table, you get the misses they counted. No safeties, no out of category, only misses. I've been warned about close together shots because "it almost sounded like one". If you're a spotter and can make it to be two reports, then it's two shots.

 

CR

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