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Rio Grande Glenn

gun fighters you make the call please

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Hangin' at EOT. Decided to check the wire. Just had to check why this thread was still a goin'. Read the last few...

 

Now I have ta sit up in bed. Jes sos I could tell ya.

 

Ya'll makin' much ado 'bout nothing. My limited experience tells me this is a perceived problem, not a real one.

 

Ah ain't met the double cocker that I couldn't spot fer.

 

Now you boys be nice I'm off the find an EOT thread!

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Max,

 

I would give it to you if I had not seen a short Texas pawn broker have an EOT side match time disqualified for a gunfighter run that was fast but still 10 shots in the right order (none at the same time). It is a problem and you may not see it till you are called on it.

 

Best Regards,

BJT

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Gunfighters must shoot the sequence the same as any other shooter.

If they shoot two at the same time then they are not shooting the sequence the same and deserves the "P" in the process.

I don't see the shooting out of category rule applying in this circumstance.

 

 

it is a p for shooting out of cat because PWB and the ROC has declared it as such.

 

pbcc

 

 

u help me make my point in a round about way

if you change the rules to allow gunfighters to shoot two pistols at the same time

how would the counters confirm that the corrent target order was fullfilled properly

even on something as simple as a sweep left to right

 

 

I remember a relatively long "battle" to get the Gunfighter category approved. My pards were so eager to do it and to have the category approved.

 

So I hate to see that it has resulted in a small, but growing number of shooters who are intentionally breaking the rules, denying the rules and trying to force a situation where they gain an unfair advantage.

 

To me, when the shooter knows they are setting up a situation where it is essentially impossible to count misses, then want to use the "must give the shooter the benefit of the doubt, they are seeking and unfair advantage. And knowingly breaking the rules.

 

Is this what we want in SASS?

What I read is that now we have a circumstance when a GF'er that cocks both pistols before firing one is penalized differently than a two-handed shooter, duelist or other gunfighters. If I understand the statements correctly, a GF'er who is penalized for firing two shots at the same time because the spotters cannot tell if the targets were engaged in the correct order, uet it's called :shooting out of caregory," and he receives step one of a progressive penalty that can lead up to a MDQ. Whereas a squaw-gripper, duelist or other gunfighter that DOES shoot the targets out of order only receives a "P", regardless of how many times he does it.

 

I absolutely GET the fact that wasn't the intent, but that sure seems like the outcome.

 

The circumstance is also an outgrowth of moving larger targets in closer. Anyone who believes big targets, up close isn't responsible for the drop in stage times is only kidding themselves. But, that is here to stay, to suggest otherwise is tantamount to heresy in the form of ruining everyone's fun; from the fastest, most-skilled to the slowest, least competent.

 

I don't see the infraction very often, but I'm a poor judge as I so seldom compete. However, it's not brought up here for discussion very often.

 

A change seems to be in order to eliminate the controversy, so... make the infraction a MSV. Or simply rule that two cocked revolvers in hand at the same time is not a legal GF'er method of shooting. End of subjective calls.

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Goodnight Max.

 

Wish you the best at EOT this year.

 

 

..........Widder

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Widder,

 

I don't agree that ONE spotter can call a "P"... most of the time. Remember, the TO polls the spotters for misses and input on other infractions. The TO then assess that input and calls the score to the scorekeeper. As both TO and spotter I've asked spotters to review their calls and have flat out overruled them on a "P" or MSV when I've known them to be wrong. Now... I can't recall an instance where 2, let alone 3 have agreed and I haven't heeded their call.

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G'night Widder! I am tired and sore. It's hot & dusty & dry & dusty.... but, these are the best stages from 1-12 that I've seen at Founders Ranch. It's obvious the huge amount of people that have contributed to this grandiose event.

 

I've got to give special recognititon for the efforts of T.A. Chance and his sidekick Lassiter. They are all over those stages. Fixin't the little things. No more walmart tables over fences or wagons with rickety wood and chains. Fantastic SG targets, and exicting use of rifle & pistol knockdown and moving targets. Not scientific, but it appears to me that average stage times are down significantly from the past.

 

Targets are so close, I've been provin' just how easy it is to miss close up cut out cowboys as far away cut out cowboys!

 

12 stages of warm up has been very helpful.

 

I look forward to seein' ya real soon there Pard!

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to me it is shoot pistols at a speed that allows your specific counters to work the stage without in-tim-i-dation

its not just hard to count for GFers, its hard to count for all of these sub 20 second stage shooters.....period

 

Mike, are you serious? Shoot pistols only as fast as your spotters can keep up?!? Certainly would change the game, wouldn't it. So now do we make sub-20's illegal, too?

 

I'm NOT arguing in favor of making simultaneous shots legal, but I don't want an arbitrary line.

so what is the line?

that is a very simple question

that is all I am asking folks to come up with

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A change seems to be in order to eliminate the controversy, so... make the infraction a MSV. Or simply rule that two cocked revolvers in hand at the same time is not a legal GF'er method of shooting. End of subjective calls.

it happens more and more as cas progress's and targets git closer,

so that is why it is being discussed here on the wire

my point is only: letting gunfighters fire two pistols at one time, is just a slippery slope,

where target order now becomes the subjective call,

I am not asking for a rule change

I am mearly suggesting that folks follow the current GF rules until it is changed

offer solutions along with your gripe,

Griff offered his idea listed above in the first three lines

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From ROII, 2012 edition:

"When shooting with two guns, both revolvers may be cocked at the same time but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring."

 

 

Nothing there about a "P" or a "Safety" just said "must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring." So if you heard a Bam-Bam - - Clang-clang that would be two hits, if you heard Bam - - Clang that would be one hit. so at the end you would count ether 9 or 10 bangs and 9 or 10 Clangs. So I'd count it as a miss if I only heard 9 CLANGS.

 

 

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Oh yeah, one little tidbit fer yer Widder. If ya git the chance ask 'ole Split Rail how he got sunburned feet.

 

I'll sure do it.

 

Safe travels and see you at GOA!

 

 

..........Widder

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Max,

 

I would give it to you if I had not seen a short Texas pawn broker have an EOT side match time disqualified for a gunfighter run that was fast but still 10 shots in the right order (none at the same time). It is a problem and you may not see it till you are called on it.

 

Best Regards,

BJT

 

 

I knew it was going to happen sooner or later.

But now you got me wondering what his time was.

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NO! On disallowing two cocked revolvers at same time. EVERY competent gunfighter I know cocks both when they are first pulled. AND I find it is MUCH better to shoot-cock than to cock-shoot, so I have two cocked at same time pretty much at all times.

 

Possum (who's thinkin' "Gawd a mighty!" right now)

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A change seems to be in order to eliminate the controversy, so... make the infraction a MSV. Or simply rule that two cocked revolvers in hand at the same time is not a legal GF'er method of shooting. End of subjective calls.

it happens more and more as cas progress's and targets git closer,

so that is why it is being discussed here on the wire

my point is only: letting gunfighters fire two pistols at one time, is just a slippery slope,

where target order now becomes the subjective call,

I am not asking for a rule change

I am mearly suggesting that folks follow the current GF rules until it is changed

offer solutions along with your gripe,

Griff offered his idea listed above in the first three lines

 

You are trying to address a non-problem. Leave us alone

 

CR

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The part of this 'no simultaneous firing' that I ain't crazy about is that even as an alternating cocker, it is still very possible to get some of those '2 shots at the same time' and one of these days, some of us could be on a posse where Gomer Pyle is a spotter and the next thing we know, he'll start running around hollerin 'Citizens Arressstt, Citizens Arressstt. Give em a 'P' because he/she fired 2 shots at the same time'.

 

And here is the scary part that to me is VERY CONTRADICTORY.....only ONE spotter is necessary to award a 'P'.

 

Soooo, lets say 2 spotters actually count 10 shots but one of the spotters declares a double discharge at the same time. Could they not still award the 'P'?

 

 

..........Widder

Hi Widder,

 

Only if the TO allows it. I can only see that happening if the TO also heard a lesser number of shots.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Just had this happen at last weekends shoot at our local match..

I was 1 of the spotters..

 

I only counted 9 shots fired by a gunfighter...

He started to put them away.. I said "1 more!!"

 

One of the spotters hollered to me that he shot 2 at the same time..

I didn't catch it... Problem?? Yep..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' I ain't a gunfighter..

So I should probably stay off this thread.. :blush:

But it's kinda' like a SxS.. sometimes ya need ta hear 2 shots.. sometimes ya don't.. :)

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I knew it was going to happen sooner or later.

But now you got me wondering what his time was.

Don't recall the time. It was two Nevada sweeps on speed pistol. The time would have been the lead time at that point in the side match.

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...

 

 

Or simply rule that two cocked revolvers in hand at the same time is not a legal GF'er method of shooting. End of subjective calls.

Griff

No! How would I re program my brain to single cock? The progressive penalty for simultaneous shots is fine by me, no rule change needed.

Fordyce

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You are trying to address a non-problem. Leave us alone

 

CR

I am not

I am just asking gunfighters ::: that hint ::: on the wire, that allowing two shots should become the new rule

I am just sayin that if that happens it will create more counter problems than can be imagined by most right now

 

thats all

I do not start the gunfighter topics, just make statements within them

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Just had this happen at last weekends shoot at our local match..

I was 1 of the spotters..

 

I only counted 9 shots fired by a gunfighter...

He started to put them away.. I said "1 more!!"

 

One of the spotters hollered to me that he shot 2 at the same time..

I didn't catch it... Problem?? Yep..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' I ain't a gunfighter..

So I should probably stay off this thread.. :blush:

But it's kinda' like a SxS.. sometimes ya need ta hear 2 shots.. sometimes ya don't.. :)

you are a counter, and that allows your comments

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Max,

 

I would give it to you if I had not seen a short Texas pawn broker have an EOT side match time disqualified for a gunfighter run that was fast but still 10 shots in the right order (none at the same time). It is a problem and you may not see it till you are called on it.

 

Best Regards,

BJT

Surely there are videos on YouTube of such a skilled shooter, one who is capable of winning a side match at the world championships of our game. I did a search for "short Texas pawn broker," but didn't get any results. Perhaps someone could point us to a video showing the shooter using the gunfighter shooting style in question. :ph34r:

 

Perhaps it time for yet another category: The Outlaw of All Outlaws category.

 

Here's a video of a multi-time overall World champion shooting two handed on what I think is likely a double tap Nevada sweep in 12.32 seconds with lots of movement. I had no difficulty distinguishing his pistol shots. I can't wait to see the other videos!

 

BTW, I have a friend from Texas who is a pawn broker who is a helluva shooter. I have encouraged him to go on the road as an exhibition shooter. There must be something about being a pawn broker in Texas that makes you a really good shooter. :ph34r:

 

Anvil Al: "I knew it was going to happen sooner or later." :lol:

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Hey Buck.

Even on the video. I could easily count all pistol shots.

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Guest Texican Bounty Hunter

Simple solution is to disallow cocking 2 pistols at once and allow only alternating Gunfighter.

I know this will make the double cockers mad and I will hear back from them but it is the solution...

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Took a wander through the rules. There is no rule against firing both barrels of a shotgun at the same time. Gamers and gunsmiths, you are missing an opportunity. I bet you could figure out the average distance between target pairs on about 60% of all stages. Regulate the barrels to that spread and you can fire both barrels at the same time! With a shotgun. It would cost a bunch of money and save virtually no time and depend heavily on the scenario to even work but it would give an axle for folks to get wrapped around fer sure.

 

Cheers,

BJT

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Simple solution is to disallow cocking 2 pistols at once and allow only alternating Gunfighter.

I know this will make the double cockers mad and I will hear back from them but it is the solution...

We have a system in place, it's subjective, but it works as well as any cockamame idea I've seen floated here.

 

Leave it alone - it's not a problem. Each of us pays the price if we push the envelope too far, and the envelope depends on the spotters/TO. Any other solution would involve the same people and still require some degree of subjectivity.

 

CR

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Simple solution is to disallow cocking 2 pistols at once and allow only alternating Gunfighter.

I know this will make the double cockers mad and I will hear back from them but it is the solution...

You obviously have not watched some of the better gunfighters - disallowing 2 cocked pistols impacts most gunfighters. In addition, trying to add the responsibility for monitoring gunfighters for this violation (no double cocking) to the TO duties should make for some interesting consistency - it just moves this judgment process to another point. It would have to be a TO duty because spotters are supposed to have their focus in another direction. Being able to distinguish consecutive shots is not just a gunfighter issue. It is an all too common problem for some spotters to determine whether a two handed shooter has gotten off all 5 shots from a pistol.

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Griff

No! How would I re program my brain to single cock? The progressive penalty for simultaneous shots is fine by me, no rule change needed.

Fordyce

I'm in the same boat... I couldn't shoot gunfighter without double cocking... I think. Oh, I could, but it'd be tremedously slower... and we don't have enough hours in the day for me get slower! I understand that scoring can be a problem when a shooter shoots two shots so close to being at the same time... or so close thereto that others perceive it as one shot. Which is nigh onto impossible... But, other'n throw'n out the current bathwater, how do we save the baby from drowning?

 

I, for one, don't think the progressive penalty is OK. It places a penalty on gunfighters that can't be given to others... Frankly, a 10 second "P" for shooting out of order is onerous enough, but to then make it a progressive penalty under the dubious guise of "shooting out of category" is downright despicable in its prejudice..., no that's a tad harsh, er... bigotry..., no that seems too racist, ok, how about, complete lack of any sense of fair play. Frankly, I know of a few shooters that squaw grip and shoot so fast that it's hard to distinguish all five of theirs... yet they, under the current rules interpretation, couldn't be penalized in the same manner.

 

Are we, as a sport, so prejudiced against the gunfighter category that we willing to impose this on a segment of our population?

 

Oh, wait... as a Frontiersman, I ain't got a dog in this fight! Nevermind.

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The solution is simple......do away with the rule BUT the gunfighter that CHOOSES to fire both guns at the same time or so near the same time that it is indistinguishable as two distinct shots would HAVE to live with the possibility of BAD CALLS.

 

 

If the spotters only count 9 shots when there is supposed to be 10 what do you expect them to do? Around here they yell out "one more". No reshoot for interference.

 

If the spotters here only 1 shot and don't see both targets get HIT what do you expect them to call? I was looking and listening. Saw 9 hits and heard 9 hits must be 1 miss. How can you argue when your chosen shooting style makes it difficult if not impossible to know what happened.

 

For me......Roll the Dice and see how it comes out for you if you want to fire both guns at the same time. You put your big girl panties on to shoot that way then keep'em on when the time and penalties are called out.

 

Stan

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In my opinion, thats good, sound reasoning Jawbone.

 

Now, I think I'll call my stock broker and invest some $$$ in big girl panties! :lol:

 

 

..........NimbleSOB

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+1 Stan

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If I shot both gun at the same time one would be an A D.Can I get some little girl panties.+ 1 for Stan.

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it ain't broke, just don't fire them at the same time... if you do well then suffer the consequences....

 

and it ain't even winter!

 

pb

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