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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

some spotters....

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This past weekend I was shooting at a match, when this happent,

 

I was shooting FCGF and hauling tha mail so to speak, shot the stage well and as I wazza headed for the unloading table i heard some converstion with a 6 in it,,,hmmm methinks wats up? spotter 1 says clean, spotter 2 says i think he may have missed one, spotter 3 says 6! yes SIX!!!

Ended up clean, but goodness,,,,6!

 

has this happent tu yu?

 

cheyenne

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Yep. First stage of the day. Two spotters held up two fingers each. I said to the spotters, I won't argue with your decision, but I'm the first shooter on freshly painted targets...check the bullet marks. They counted and called it clean.

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This past weekend I was shooting at a match, when this happent,

 

I was shooting FCGF and hauling tha mail so to speak, shot the stage well and as I wazza headed for the unloading table i heard some converstion with a 6 in it,,,hmmm methinks wats up? spotter 1 says clean, spotter 2 says i think he may have missed one, spotter 3 says 6! yes SIX!!!

Ended up clean, but goodness,,,,6!

 

has this happent tu yu?

 

cheyenne

 

Hey Pepper, Bout' 4 years back or so, I wuz' shootin' FCGF at an annual match,

en' the spotters were discussin' weather I had a 'P' or not,

sometin' wuz' said about

well beins' the Wimp had 9 pistol misses, we won't give him the 'P'

We (the spotters) Really Couldn't Tell fer' sure if'in' Wimp had a 'P' :lol:

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Hi CC,

 

Well sorta. Only it was five misses and Smokeless! Seems worse to me with smokeless. Two new shooters (husband and wife) were counting and there was dead steel. One counter (not them) said one miss, they said five. TO said five. :angry: I didn't argue; but, Hubby sure got an earful on the way home. Ever since then, I have been very leery of having newbies count for me.

 

Then, in this area have an individual who has earned the secret nickname of Add-a-Miss. Also, there is one other individual some of us hate to see counting when it's our turn. That's a whole other story. :unsure::rolleyes:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Yup. been there. Some folks just don't like the Miss Matrix. <_<

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Spotting is generally the HARDEST job on the range.

Yes, when things go wrong the timer operator can have bursts of challenge that far surpass the difficulty of spotting, but for the most part running the timer is pretty uneventful. Shoot, if we are honest, for some shooters the TO's job is just to stay out of the way.

 

But good spotting requires you on your toes 100% of the time.

Spotting demands that you are watching the shooters actions, watching the targets, watching ALL THE AREA surrounding the targets, listening to each shot fired, listening for each target struck, and all the while moving in harmony with the shooter and TO to keep your views unobstructed.

On EVERY SINGLE SHOT, you have to be sure of your evaluation AND honest enough to give the beneift of the doubt if the shooter gets away from you. You have to willing to admit your abilities and give up the spotters job if you cannot keep up.

 

And you have to banish the term "I think" from your vocabulary...

"I think" he missed - don't matter what you think - it didn't happen.

"I think" he had a "P" - don't matter what you think - it didn't happen.

If you don't KNOW it (whatever it is) FOR A FACT - then it didn't happen.

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Spotting is generally the HARDEST job on the range.

Yes, when things go wrong the timer operator can have bursts of challenge that far surpass the difficulty of spotting, but for the most part running the timer is pretty uneventful. Shoot, if we are honest, for some shooters the TO's job is just to stay out of the way.

 

But good spotting requires you on your toes 100% of the time.

Spotting demands that you are watching the shooters actions, watching the targets, watching ALL THE AREA surrounding the targets, listening to each shot fired, listening for each target struck, and all the while moving in harmony with the shooter and TO to keep your views unobstructed.

On EVERY SINGLE SHOT, you have to be sure of your evaluation AND honest enough to give the beneift of the doubt if the shooter gets away from you. You have to willing to admit your abilities and give up the spotters job if you cannot keep up.

 

And you have to banish the term "I think" from your vocabulary...

"I think" he missed - don't matter what you think - it didn't happen.

"I think" he had a "P" - don't matter what you think - it didn't happen.

If you don't KNOW it (whatever it is) FOR A FACT - then it didn't happen.

 

I concur. We're all human, and all get distracted from time to time, and sometimes have a bad day. I've had times where I'm counting, and I get a number different from both of the other counters and the TO, I'll defer to them and get someone to take my place. I know I want counters that are paying attention when I'm shooting, if I'm giving shooters any less when I am counting, I should step back and let someone else do the job.

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Heee Haaa Mr Cowpecker Sir..Yap that happened down in Indeeannder .It was the Black Powder Night Shoot at the Pass.. :unsure: Wells I wasa a runnin the stage purdy fast, and when I got ta the rifle I put 10 full case loads down range in about 5 sec. ;) Yap I used the shock and awe methed on the spotters, I put so much Smoke and Fire down range there was no way they could call 8 misses :huh: But they did :o

 

Heee Haaa Crazy Mingo :wacko::wacko::FlagAm:

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:FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm:

 

Heck, I hardly ever check my times and seldom check up on misses. I KNOW WHEN I MISS!

 

Once I had a spotter convince the other spotters (two new folks to SASS) that I didn't have enough birdshot on a stationary target to call it a hit. He was claiming that most of the pattern was off target---Therefore it was a miss. :angry::angry: I never found out about it until after the day was tallied up. :blush:

 

Mustang Gregg

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A couple years back, we had 4 SG targets to engage and only ONE was a swinger (3rd target)

 

I laid the first two down and then shot at #3 and 4. #4 clearly fell but one of the spotters yelled 'UP' so I reloaded and re-engaged #3 again.

 

After the stage, I commented that I was sure I popped that swinger and it moved.....moved a few inches actually. And I ask "WHO hollered UP?"

 

It was a spotter who had NEVER seen a swinger before and after it 'didn't fall' he yelled 'UP'.....to help me out.... :lol:

 

I didn't say anything but another posse member politely explained to him about swinger targets.

 

Stuff happens!

 

..........Widder

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Sadly it happens to all of us,

 

I have seen it as TO, shooter is finished spotter 1 calls “clean” spotter 2 calls “3miss” spotter 3 calls “9 miss and a P”, and even after a short discussion we could not get 1 verdict.

Gave the shooter a reshoot.

As we shoot a lot of BP here in Europe I have seen Shotgun knockdown targets that had been hit twice called “up”twice and counted as a miss at the end of the stage because the targets bounced with the hard BP loads(the spotters didn’t pay attention,and where standing in the wrong place, if you stand behind a BP shooter you won’t see a thing, stand to the side if this is possible)

 

Spotting is one of the hardest jobs on the range, and somehow it seems that the people who have the most problems with the calls of the spotters are the one’s sitting on their guncarts for the whole match.

Everybody makes mistakes as a spotter, I have been there : slow match, stage 6 it is 4a clock and you’re on the range from 8 in the morning, and the shooter just gets away from you. so making a mistake is only proof that your human

 

On the other side, I have seen spotters that just didn’t take the job serious , I even asked the TO to give a spotter another job and replace them, and I have been in discussions with other spotter that just wanted to convince me of their view, if there is discussion on what the spotters call I think it is good to talk to each other and tell what you have seen, but this should never become an argument where one or two spotters trey to convince the rest that they should chance their call

 

For me it is:

take the job serious,

do your best,

follow the rules(so you have to know the rules)

“Call ‘m as you see ‘m”

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Dutch Bear

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It can go both ways though.........I wish it were always right but ya' win some you lose some.

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Folks just don't get it right sometime I reckon :)

 

Glad it worked out OK...

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Black powder and dead targets make it hard, but the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter both for hits and a procedural. If you can't tell for sure it's a miss, it is a hit. Anytime I TO and the spotters says "I think", then I say that's a hit.

 

Edge hits for new spotters are hard. It took me a while to understand a odd hit in the dirt or way up the beam not in the line of fire was an edge hit. Some polite coaching of new or even experienced spotters may help. The other thing I do when spotting is loosen up my ear plugs a bit so I can hear the hits. The disposables when jammed in tightly can eliminate some of the hit sounds. Just loosen a bit, not enough to get hearing problems.

 

Bflo

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I really don't mind when the spotters are trying to do it right by moving to get an unobstructed view, moving down range with the shooter, and paying close attention for edge hits and the like.

 

What I DO mind is when a spotter looks around and then changes his/her count, or says "I think...." when making the call and won't give the shooter the BOTD!

 

I seldom dispute a call unless it is flagrantly incorrect.

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I like spotting for the majority of shooters, but I have to give it up when the speed demons come to the line. My little ol brain just can't keep up with them fellers.

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I know of big matches won or lost depends what side of the spotting mistake you were on because of misses that weren't called. This usually occures more often with big up close targets that multiple shots are on. Plus the closer to the ground the harder it is to call hits or misses. Spotting for really fast shooters on big up close targets is almost impossible sometimes. I usually shoot on really good posses and 9 out of 10 times the spotters do the right thing and give the shooter the benefit of the doubt. In saying that when world champion shooters can't tell whether a target was hit or missed how can you blame anyone.

 

So running the timer I see more misses counted as hits than the opposite. I know when running the timer you are not supposed to watch shots go down range. Well I hate to say it, but you find yourself looking right down the sites of the shooters gun a lot of the time. So not only do you see if it was a hit or a miss moast of the time you can tell where the shot impacted.

 

It's amazing how much easier spotting gets when good pistol targets are at 7-9 yrds and good rifle targets are at 12-18 yrds. I've watched 2ft-3ft targets not move or ring when the bullet impacted the carriage bolt that is part of hanging the target. I've also seen this happen on double taps where the second shot actually causes the first shot to quit ringing the target. Not so good spotters raise a finger when that happens as well.

 

 

No solutions or suggestions in this post, just observations.

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We have all experienced the inattentive, the poorly positioned, and the new counters, as well as the dead steel that doesn't ring. But to be honest, how many times has the count gone the other way? When you KNOW you had one or two misses ~ and the spotters say, "CLEAN!"

 

Monthly matches are a good place for spotter training. Posse Marshals should recite the litany before the first stage of the match.

 

At state and above matches, it is a real pain to get a miscount ~ either for or against.

 

Buena suerte,

eGG

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I've found shooting black if your fast and dead targets your gonna get misses called. Like Creeker said being a good spotter is the hardest job. I've heard more than once I only heard ---- hits. Still what fun it is shooting black fast. Its not a perfect game. But it is the best one around. NBC

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I've found shooting black if your fast and dead targets your gonna get misses called. Like Creeker said being a good spotter is the hardest job. I've heard more than once I only heard ---- hits. Still what fun it is shooting black fast. Its not a perfect game. But it is the best one around. NBC

 

Yup.

 

And generally it don't matter to me one way or the other. :lol:

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I rarely know whether my 1860 round balls have hit the target or not. The amount of smoke and the noise keeps me from being able to make that call. If I'm spotting for a smoker I'll be off to the side somewhere.

The only people that I will not spot for are the double cocker gunfighters. You have to be inside their heads to know where they are shooting. Single cockers I can live with.

 

TBone can be a challenge sometimes. At Bayou Blast I saw him shoot a left and right 5 target pistol sweep as an outlaw gun fighter. Started on the left, target # 1 with his left gun and target #5 with his right and shot right gun right to left and left gun left to right at the same time.

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I've found shooting black if your fast and dead targets your gonna get misses called. Like Creeker said being a good spotter is the hardest job. I've heard more than once I only heard ---- hits. Still what fun it is shooting black fast. Its not a perfect game. But it is the best one around. NBC

 

 

I agree with that :)

 

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Spotting, yes can be one of the toughest jobs on a posse. Calls can go either way, but its the spotters that doesn't pay attention, jaws, etc. then when shooter finishes, he'll look around to see what he needs to call, and there are more of these then some may think. The spotter that uses another spotters call, and yes it does effect the outcome of matches, 5 or 10 seconds of an unwarranted miss by bad spotting is hard to overcome with the field of good shooters we have.

Monthly matches, for many the outcome may not mean much, but for the shooter that travels, and spends the money for a "competition", would at least like a fair outcome.

A spotter also needs to remember, when he/she "thinks", thinking is not a miss, benefit goes to the shooter. Also spotters need to be aware of the sequence, so as not to give unwarranted "P"s. MT

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If I was spottin for you Culpepper.. I sure would know you couldn't possibly miss 6 shots... :lol:

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That would be my thought also. I have had the pleasure of being on Mr. Culpeppers posse many times. He shoots pretty fast-- but usually does not miss. As he said he was shooting gunfighter--- you gotta pay extra attention. On those fast guys--- they are gonna run them pistolas in a manner that us mere mortals have a hard time following. So, if you got dead steel-- better be a watching real close.

 

 

REMEMBER --- IF ITS A HIT, ITS A HIT. If you THINK its a miss, its a HIT. If you know its a miss -- then its a miss.

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What I DO mind is when a spotter looks around and then changes his/her count, or says "I think...." when making the call and won't give the shooter the BOTD!

 

 

 

This is my pet peeve as a timer operator. At every match where I'm a posse leader I give a speech about proper spotting and I include that the spotters should NEVER look at the other spotters and change their count. If I see someone doing that or if one spotter is trying to talk the others into an extra hit/miss I give my speech again. Tell me what YOU saw. It's MY responsibility to find out what the other spotters saw. You do your job, I'll do mine.

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:FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm:

 

Heck, I hardly ever check my times and seldom check up on misses. I KNOW WHEN I MISS!

 

Once I had a spotter convince the other spotters (two new folks to SASS) that I didn't have enough birdshot on a stationary target to call it a hit. He was claiming that most of the pattern was off target---Therefore it was a miss. :angry::angry: I never found out about it until after the day was tallied up. :blush:

 

Mustang Gregg

Hi Gregg,

 

I've seen something similar. Our first shooter on a freshly-painted stage was clean according to the spotters (annual match). The berm marshals gave him two misses. One said he didn't hit straight on. However, you could tell it was a good hit by the missing paint. Our PM got the MD to remove the misses.

 

All I can think is "some folks are..." oh never mind. Anyway, there were other issues with those two and after being set straight by the MD, we heard that they did not return to that club. No one cried over that.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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Some of you are familiar with Big Ned, a standing cowboy target at the North Alabama Regulators that I would guess was cut from a 4' x 8' piece of steel and is close enough to shoot with pistols requiring only minimal effort to hit him. HE'S HUGE! With that said, it is possible to get in such a hurry that he can be missed.

 

A few years back I was shooting Big Ned and the scenario was rather simple: Put all rounds on Big Ned. In this situation, since I actually do look at my sights, my biggest concern was assuring I didn't jack out a live round. I shot the stage fast enough to be pleased with myself, picked up my long guns and as I headed to the unloading table I saw two spotters (one was very new and the other I wouldn't call seasoned) holding up a finger. I asked, "What did I miss?" to which the senior shooter replied, "You missed your first rifle shot about eight feet to the right." A miss was recorded even though in order to miss by that distance, a shooter would have to hold the rifle at about 30 degrees from center...which I did not.

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If I was spottin for you Culpepper.. I sure would know you couldn't possibly miss 6 shots... :lol:

 

 

I see your smiley face, but your comment reminds me of a recent experience I had while counting.

 

Two counters, standing to the side, said clean. I, standing behind the shooter, said 1 miss. I was in position to see an AD that went off well before the shooter was ready and landed at the foot of the next target. Both of the other counters assumed it was an edge hit that went straight down. Their logic was, "It must have been an edge hit because xxx was too good of a shooter to miss that far,"

 

Rather than try to convince the other shooters, I simply waited for the shooter to speak up. I wish I could say that they had.

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Howdy:

 

I spot a lot. It's a job I take very seriously cuz it can make or break a shooter's day. I've had some bad calls on me. It don't feel good. I always try to give the shooter benefit of the doubt.

 

I have never been convinced to raise the number of misses I've seen but if another spotter can convince me that the shooter hit the rim and the bullet did a bounce into the dirt I will lower my miss count.

 

I try not to cluster up with other spotters so's I can get a different perspective.

 

If I feel I'm having a bad day of spotting I turn in the spotter's stick or tag and pick up brass. Happened just a few times.

 

If an RO told me to turn in my stick I would feel bad not for myself, but for the shooters that had to endure my bad calls. (So far it's never happened).

 

 

Waimea

 

:FlagAm:

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Rather than try to convince the other shooters, I simply waited for the shooter to speak up.

I would say 99% of shooters will stay mum, even if they know they had a bad call against them. MT

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Rather than try to convince the other shooters, I simply waited for the shooter to speak up. I wish I could say that they had.

 

There are a myriad of jobs on a posse.

TO, target resetters, brass pickers, spotters AND shooter.

 

If I am shooting, my job is to SHOOT.

Not time, pick brass, reset targets or SPOT.

As Philly said earlier, you do your job and I will do mine.

While I usually know if I earn a miss or a "P", it aint my job to call them on myself...

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There are a myriad of jobs on a posse.

TO, target resetters, brass pickers, spotters AND shooter.

 

If I am shooting, my job is to SHOOT.

Not time, pick brass, reset targets or SPOT.

As Philly said earlier, you do your job and I will do mine.

While I usually know if I earn a miss or a "P", it aint my job to call them on myself...

 

 

My post was not intended to indicate that anyone, including the shooter, had not done their job. The shooter got a break, pure and simple. The shooter was also the only one that could have set the record straight. We all, however, have had instances when a round went off a little earlier than we anticipated. {I remember Cowtown telling me one time...You missed that one real quick.).

 

When this happens since the gun is still moving, more often than not, the shooter doesn't see where it went. I doubt that this shooter did. Therefore, the BOTD went to the shooter, as it should. The doubt, however, was ceated by the fact that two spotters were influenced by the shooter's previously demonstrated abilitiy.

 

There were no protests, no harsh words, no problem. A great match went right on without a blip. Just part of this wonderful game.

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