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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

some spotters....

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That would be my thought also. I have had the pleasure of being on Mr. Culpeppers posse many times. He shoots pretty fast-- but usually does not miss. As he said he was shooting gunfighter--- you gotta pay extra attention. On those fast guys--- they are gonna run them pistolas in a manner that us mere mortals have a hard time following. So, if you got dead steel-- better be a watching real close.

 

 

REMEMBER --- IF ITS A HIT, ITS A HIT. If you THINK its a miss, its a HIT. If you know its a miss -- then its a miss.

 

I only have one problem with this idea that if you aren't sure it's a miss then it is a hit.

 

As far as I can tell the ways to determine if a shot is a miss is (1) see dirt kick up behind the target (2) not hear a ding from the bullet hitting the target (3) not see the target move (4) not see dirt kick up below the target from the lead spray.

 

If you don't see or hear any of those things you can't say it is a miss so it must be called a hit.

 

So you could shoot blanks they would all be scored as hits.

 

Sage Creek Gus

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Black powder and dead targets make it hard, but the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter both for hits and a procedural. If you can't tell for sure it's a miss, it is a hit. Anytime I TO and the spotters says "I think", then I say that's a hit.

 

Edge hits for new spotters are hard. It took me a while to understand a odd hit in the dirt or way up the beam not in the line of fire was an edge hit. Some polite coaching of new or even experienced spotters may help. The other thing I do when spotting is loosen up my ear plugs a bit so I can hear the hits. The disposables when jammed in tightly can eliminate some of the hit sounds. Just loosen a bit, not enough to get hearing problems.

 

Bflo

I agree with Slim, some polite coaching of new and even experianced shooters can help. With new shooters I say "come on me and you are gonna spot". I try to teach them to sorta look through the targets, look for the hits, see the misses in the dirt and on the berms. Position yerself to be able to have a good view of the targets, this is very important with BP and dead steel. Edge hits are tough for new spotters, take the time to teach them instead of just handing them a spotting stick. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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One of my biggest concerns about spotting is the lack of balance that usually exist in a posse. I always seem to get a few shooters who want 100% attention paid to them when shooting, but when it is their turn to spot you have to ride them hard to get them to give that same 100% back. At one of my shoots a shooter had to clear misses and the shooter lobbied another shooter to argue the call. The irony in this is that the shooter doing the lobbying was unloading their guns at the unloading table. It's just a game and we are here to have fun. I always tell the spotters that they owe the shooter 100% of their attention and that they should also expect the same.

 

Hud McCoy :FlagAm:

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Happened this weekend at our annual match. We gave "the talk" before we started. "Don't want to hear the word "think" - if you "think" it's a miss, it's a hit. Don't stand right behind the BP shooters, they can't see through the smoke and neither can you. Don't listen for hits LOOK -- some of these targets don't go clang and some folks have light ammo. LOOK.

 

First shooter, fresh paint. You can see the dings. Spotter insists on a miss. Nicely find new job for ex-spotter. Give "the talk again". Next stage: Flying clay, shooter hits it into 3 chunks, 2 spotters take about 7 seconds arguing over if a make up shot on the stationary target is required. This is on the clock as pistols haven't been shot yet....... Fire more spotters. Another stage, more fresh paint and first shooter, another spotter that wants to call a miss even though you can count the dings in the paint. Running out of spotters and patience.......... Give "the talk" again......

 

Some days are like that. We had 3 or 4 shooters that are good enough to win at least in category and one in the running for overall. It was really nerve-wracking trying to get everybody a fair shake when it came to spotting. I found myself watching targets when I was RO more than once (especially the flying clays and shotgun KD's) so I could tell the shooter myself if they needed a makeup. I felt really bad about the whole thing at the end of the day.

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Spotting for really fast shooters on big up close targets is almost impossible sometimes. .

No solutions or suggestions in this post, just observations.

 

 

VERY TRUE! For this reason I have X'ed one big shoot of my '012 schedule! Never going to put myself in that position again. :blush:

 

KQ

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VERY TRUE! For this reason I have X'ed one big shoot of my '012 schedule! Never going to put myself in that position again. :blush:

 

KQ

 

Let me know where it's at and I'll add it to my list. I love matches like that!! :)

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When I'm RO and there's a popper/ flyer I call it just like a clay DEAD OR LOST. Then I yell make-up so the shooter knows to grab two when it's time. If you wait until the end of the string and there's a chip he didn't stop to see then it's (count 1, 2, 3) while someone tells the poor bugger he ain't done yet.

 

Every now and then I'll ask a spotter to hand off to another if the shooter is fast. It's as easy as asking "are you feeling up to counting for someone this fast?"

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Yes, it can be very difficult. And especially so for a gunfighter when they are alternating on targets spread out more.

 

It often helps to have the faster shooters spot for each other. They seem to see fast just as they shoot fast. And generally they know when they are not sure and have been on the other side enough to give the shooter the benefit.

 

I remember when I was first starting and spotted for a World champ. He used to like to try to shoot double taps almost to sound as one shot. I called him for a miss on the second shot. After I thought about it, I realized that I had no idea where that bullet really went. I later watched him closely as we practiced afterwards and his second shot was almost on top of the first every time. I sure felt like a fool.

 

Of course there are other shooters that can be excellent spotters and see as well and quickly as anyone. And if they are experienced at spotting for fast shooters it also helps.

 

But when in doubt the first idea is a good place to start.

 

And I've shot out west, where there is no real backstop but a mountain about 1/2 mile or more away. So you don't see dirt fly when the targets are set a little high. And you don't always hear a ring on dead targets. But if the shooter is shooting all blanks, you would notice. So we still have to give the benefit of doubt to the shooter. In such environs, they may get a larger benefit, but that is only fair compared to "robbing them."

 

And another hint, when you see dirt fly way away from the target, most likely, it was an edge hit. (May have been what Buck had.) Nearly all misses, except for a few AD's are pretty close to the target.

 

And the splatter often makes dirt fly directly under the target - you can even see the pattern after a few shooters.

 

Some of these are good things to share with new spotters.

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Know what ya' mean Cheyenne, only I had to "eat" a couple "called" misses myself this past weekend too, so I didn't fair as well. Was shooting stage #4 with the swinger and shot it Ok as I thought.... Posse leader/TO (a well seasoned veteran) turned and said well done. As we turned we saw ALL 3 spotters holding up 2 fingers :blink: . Posse leader turned back to me and stated he didn't see or hear any misses or see any dirt fly. I felt I had shot it clean and not to be argumentative with the spotters, we are all human, I asked them which gun I had missed with....to help make me a better shooter in the future ya' know :rolleyes: ..... and to my disbelief all 3 spotters had a different answer :o. I then turned back to the posse leader leader and said "Oh well that's part of cowboy action shooting!". Sometimes we have to eat crow with the chicken, but this sport is fun enough that even the crow starts tasting pretty good after time :D AND the people's friendship involved FAR outweigh the bad calls ;) NO COMPLAINTS HERE.... LETS SHOOT!!!! :D

 

Badfinger Bodene

One of the crow-eating (road kill) Bodene Brothers

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Yep. First stage of the day. Two spotters held up two fingers each. I said to the spotters, I won't argue with your decision, but I'm the first shooter on freshly painted targets...check the bullet marks. They counted and called it clean.

 

 

 

Yes it has happen to me.....so now my pards make me wear my glasses when I spot :rolleyes:

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Badfinger, I ate 3 on the swinger, wuz sure I was clean, but several folk sed yep, u mist em...

 

 

Twill be goo when they git new targits..

 

cc

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Let me know where it's at and I'll add it to my list. I love matches like that!! :)

 

I know the match he is talking about. Way to far east for you Arizonians to travel to.

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I know the match he is talking about. Way to far east for you Arizonians to travel to.

 

 

Good thing that out here we have learned how to count fast AND put on good shoots.

Saves us a lot of driving.

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Good thing that out here we have learned how to count fast AND put on good shoots.

Saves us a lot of driving.

 

I think there are a few match directors back here that can put on some awesome matches. Who knows, come to the mid-west shoot a few times. You might learn a thing or two besides counting fast.

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I know the match he is talking about. Way to far east for you Arizonians to travel to.

 

That would kind of leave me out of it, but maybe someday. :)

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I think there are a few match directors back here that can put on some awesome matches. Who knows, come to the mid-west shoot a few times. You might learn a thing or two besides counting fast.

 

 

I know there are some great matches and match directors back that way.

Nearly all of them that I hear great things about are putting on the close matches that you insinuated was a valid reason for bad spotting.

 

And I have shot with a fair number of shooters from the mid west. I know a little more than just how to count fast.

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Gotta watch out for "Family Members" either spotting or RO'ing for others "Family Members' also!! Had a incident not long ago where the shooter who is really fast was shooting the rifle on a triple tap target with a quad tap next. He shot two on the triple tap target, had a slight hitch with the lever and he was on a rhythm and the quad tap target was just to the side of the triple tap one. He shot the quad tap target 5 times! I called it others didn't realize what had just happened, the "Family Member who was the RO argued with me, also the shooter and kept it up long enough that the other spotters wern't going to say anything!

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Gotta watch out for "Family Members" either spotting or RO'ing for others "Family Members' also!! Had a incident not long ago where the shooter who is really fast was shooting the rifle on a triple tap target with a quad tap next. He shot two on the triple tap target, had a slight hitch with the lever and he was on a rhythm and the quad tap target was just to the side of the triple tap one. He shot the quad tap target 5 times! I called it others didn't realize what had just happened, the "Family Member who was the RO argued with me, also the shooter and kept it up long enough that the other spotters wern't going to say anything!

 

i always try when i'm TO or spotter to let an other do the job while my wife shoots, most of the time i can just give the job to an other for 1 shooter(my wife),

but that sayed most the times it gets harder and harder to find someone to take over as the day grows longer.

 

when your TO or spotter standing so close to your wife when she has a gun malfunction(she shoots my guns) it so hard not to say "give me the gun and i will have a look"

so its better to avoid the situation all together and get someone else to take the job

 

Dutch Bear

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New shooter (bitterroot larry)i got started two months ago was his second match and an anual (showdown in so. calif).

wanted to count on the second day which he did i went with him and watched and coached a little on how to move to different locations for bp shooters.

he did an excellent job and never missed a call, as stated earlier it takes 100 % to count correctly

whitelightnin sass # 527

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I know there are some great matches and match directors back that way.

Nearly all of them that I hear great things about are putting on the close matches that you insinuated was a valid reason for bad spotting.

 

And I have shot with a fair number of shooters from the mid west. I know a little more than just how to count fast.

 

Big and close, not really the good matches around these parts are more Winter Range type matches. The big and close shoots are just run of the mill shoots.

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Sometime it works in your favor though too. This year at a local club match shooting Frontiersman I had what I thought was a squib load on our last stage. All three spotters and the RO said it came out and to continue shooting. They had me clean for the stage. I went to the unloading table and cleared the caps off the nipples and put the gun away. When I went to clean it I found a ball in one of the cylinders. Apparently I had capped the empty chamber and never capped the live chamber.

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Gotta watch out for "Family Members" either spotting or RO'ing for others "Family Members' also!! Had a incident not long ago where the shooter who is really fast was shooting the rifle on a triple tap target with a quad tap next. He shot two on the triple tap target, had a slight hitch with the lever and he was on a rhythm and the quad tap target was just to the side of the triple tap one. He shot the quad tap target 5 times! I called it others didn't realize what had just happened, the "Family Member who was the RO argued with me, also the shooter and kept it up long enough that the other spotters wern't going to say anything!

Hi Jack,

 

I've seen plenty! It's another instance of thumbing nose at the rules. I know it is legal; but, I would never let Hubby time for me after my first year shooting. Just didn't want to be put in a situation where my ethics could be questioned after seeing questionable calls by family members for family members.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:

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Gotta watch out for "Family Members" either spotting or RO'ing for others "Family Members' also!!

 

I would hope so, as a family member is NOT allowed to spot for the shooter!

 

8. Spotters

A) Must never spot for a family member.

 

However, there is no restriction like this for running the timer.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Hi Jack,

 

I've seen plenty! It's another instance of thumbing nose at the rules. I know it is legal; but, I would never let Hubby time for me after my first year shooting. Just didn't want to be put in a situation where my ethics could be questioned after seeing questionable calls by family members for family members.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo :ph34r:

I recently witnessed a TO flick a hull out of his wife's 97 while he followed her to the unloading table. It was an annual.

 

Fillmore

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Apparently, people are imperfect.

Who woulda guessed? <_<:lol:

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I recently witnessed a TO flick a hull out of his wife's 97 while he followed her to the unloading table. It was an annual.

 

Fillmore

Hmmm...

 

I wouldn't have a problem if it was the last gun and TO told shooter to get the hull out before setting it down. So, was it the last gun? If not she gets a MSV regardless of who did flicked it out. If it was the last gun, he should have had her do it anyway.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sister Allie

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I don't mind spotting, except for the really fast shooters. It's not often that three spotters are in agreement for those folks.

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Bad spotters have generally not been trained how to be good spotters. When somebody is spotting for the first time it is always good to make sure they understand that if you think it is a hit, it is a hit. If you think it is a miss, it is a hit. You only call a miss when you know it is a miss. A lot of people don't understand that just because they don't hear ringing steel doesn't mean the shot is a miss. They might think it is a miss, but unless they see something that confirms the miss, it is a hit. The shooter gets the benefit of all doubts.

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Hmmm...

 

I wouldn't have a problem if it was the last gun and TO told shooter to get the hull out before setting it down. So, was it the last gun? If not she gets a MSV regardless of who did flicked it out. If it was the last gun, he should have had her do it anyway.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sister Allie

ah, wait Allie,,,,iffn it was the last firearm used, then she had up until she laid it down on the unloading table to remove it or recieve a MSV...so if it was the last firearm used,,I don't have any heartburn over someone flicking it out for her....as she is headed for the unloading table,

 

Now if it wasn't the last firearm used, THEN she should have had a MSV...

 

The shooter has up until setting a firearm down on the ULT to clear it if it was the last firearm used. Once it hits the table then a MsV is earned if an empty is in the firearm....

 

CC

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Hmmm...

 

I wouldn't have a problem if it was the last gun and TO told shooter to get the hull out before setting it down. So, was it the last gun? If not she gets a MSV regardless of who did flicked it out. If it was the last gun, he should have had her do it anyway.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sister Allie

It was not the last gun Sis. -_- I have no problem with the TO alerting the shooter to the condition on the way to the table but this rubbed me the wrong way. I have filed it away for future reference.

 

Brother Fillmore

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CC

 

I never said she'd get a penalty for someone else flicking. I just feel the TO should tell the shooter to do it. Ideally the TO should say, "Set down your rifle then clear your SG before setting it down."

 

Did you even read my post? :unsure: Please read my posts before you reply like you are correcting me.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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It was not the last gun Sis. -_- I have no problem with the TO alerting the shooter to the condition on the way to the table but this rubbed me the wrong way. I have filed it away for future reference.

 

Brother Fillmore

Well then,

 

Shooter has up until the next gun is fired to clear the previous gun. If it wasn't the last gun, guess she should have got a MSV!

 

:wub:

 

Sister Allie

 

PS Sending you a PM.

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I agree with Slim, some polite coaching of new and even experianced shooters can help. With new shooters I say "come on me and you are gonna spot". I try to teach them to sorta look through the targets, look for the hits, see the misses in the dirt and on the berms. Position yerself to be able to have a good view of the targets, this is very important with BP and dead steel. Edge hits are tough for new spotters, take the time to teach them instead of just handing them a spotting stick. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

 

Jefro has the right of it...

I can say "me too!" to being burned by new spotters. Both times it was when I was shooting cap n' ball with my .36 calibers. That's a light ball, behind a big bang! Since I shoot slow enough, I had RO's tell me that I nailed the target dead center, but 2 spotters gave me misses. These were at state matches, so I wasn't real happy with the calls, but there's not a whole lot I could do about it. I sure wish an RO could overrule a spotter <sigh!>

 

But, having learned my lesson, I switched from ball to conicals, almost double the weight of the projectile. I figuered a louder 'clang" might help. But on dead targets... oh well, not a whole lot I can do there.

 

:huh:

(fillin' the air wif smoke)

Duc

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Yea, some spotters have NO CLUE when it comes to BP shooters!!!

2 years ago I shot Frontier Cartridge at Winter Range, no one on that posse would say UP or Down on shotgun KD's and they gave me 12 misses for the match when I know for sure I only missed 2!!

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