WTC: Reengagement of Bonus Flier

[Chicken George*]

Shotgun instructions:

"Move to alleyway with shotgun and engage the shotgun targets and the flier. A hit on the flier is a 5 second bonus, a miss can be made up with a round down range.*

After this happened, there was a long discussion and a lot of differing opinions on whether a flier can be reengaged and whether or not he should get the bonus. 

[Hells Comin]

Only if u grab 2 or less  or it's a stage DQ lol.

I believe it was 4+ so all is good 

[El Chapo]

He shot the bonus target.  Why wouldn't he get the bonus?   And where is there ever a time where a person must take a miss, penalty miss or not?

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

"A miss can be made up with a round down range". That's exactly what he did... oh, and hit the flyer!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I agree with Rainmaker........ his 'make up down range' hit the target.   Great shootin......and fast.

YEEHAW!

 

EDIT:  and that deserves a 10 second bonus.... 

 

 

..........Widder

 

[Red Rider Rudy]

All I can say is Wow! Great shooting.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

I see he made up the miss, he also hit the flyer. He gets the bonus.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

Great shooting, bonus earned, next shooter after lots of congratulations

 

Randy

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

After the miss on the flyer (stoopid bonus...only a "bonus" until someone hits the bonus...then the "target" is just another target), did he not put a round down range???

 

Phantom

 

PS: He gets the stoopid bonus.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I have shooters handbook on my computer.  The page for Stage 5 follows.   Thanks for coming to the Fandango.  Your family is an amazing bunch of shooters.  The RGR Club is strongly considering hosting the NM State Match in 2024 and looks forward to your return.

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

"Move to alleyway with shotgun and engage the shotgun targets and the flier. A hit on the flier is a 5 second bonus, a miss can be made up with a round down range.*

 

That's pretty clear - it was in the air, hence still a "flier" and not a dead target on the ground, and he plainly hit it. Five second bonus, next shooter. Any other shotgun target can be re-engaged, unless the stage instructions state otherwise, why would an aerial be any different?

[Cypress Sun]

5 second bonus. 

 

I do find it ironic that my call is based upon a video reprographic means which would not be permissible during the match.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

After reading the entire stage instructions, I'm getting that the intent was to make up for a miss on the flier with an extra round fired downrange, but the bonus 5 seconds would not be subtracted. If that was the case, then it should have been more clearly stated. (I know sometimes these are hard to explain without a book). From what I literally read and what the shooter actually did, he gets the bonus and no miss. FWIW, I never score a miss for a "bonus" (I know Phantom hates that word) and only apply the time savings (or whatever is stipulated) if they hit the bonus target.

[El Chapo]

1 minute ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

After reading the entire stage instructions, I'm getting that the intent was to make up for a miss on the flier with an extra round fired downrange, but the bonus 5 seconds would not be subtracted. If that was the case, then it should have been more clearly stated. (I know sometimes these are hard to explain without a book). From what I literally read and what the shooter actually did, he gets the bonus and no miss. FWIW, I never score a miss for a "bonus" (I know Phantom hates that word) and only apply the time savings (or whatever is stipulated) if they hit the bonus target.

 

I'm sure the shooter intended to hit the target with his first shot at it, too, but ultimately I think it's the fact that he shot it that scores the bonus, not his intentions.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

I find it interesting how some shooters can find "holes" in the intent of stage description.

I hope we all agree that the intent was simply, if you miss the clay, an additional round needs to be fired to eliminate the miss on the bird.

If the activator was missed the 4+ instructions allow (expect) an addition round for activation.  The same should apply to the bird.  In this example there was no need to fire a round down range as the bird was HIT.  

If you believe the bonus was not earned, I suggest an effort be made BEFORE the fact to make it clear the shooter only gets one fired round at the bird for the bonus.

[Gungadin]

I watch it the first time and think 'he isn't allowed two in the magazine'.  Then I slow it down to see if he reloaded that quick but his hat is in the way.  So I assume he grabbed 4 even if he only needed 2?

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

32 minutes ago, Gungadin said:

I watch it the first time and think 'he isn't allowed two in the magazine'.  Then I slow it down to see if he reloaded that quick but his hat is in the way.  So I assume he grabbed 4 even if he only needed 2?

It looks like he initially pulled 3 as he goes back to his belt after the 3rd shot although he didn’t need another round.

 

Randy

[Griff]

As the "Devil's Advocate", I'd say he earned the bonus for hitting the aerial target, but... at the same time he earned a "P" for hitting it out of order.  You might think I'm arguing for his miss on the second shot caused the "P", but it is the hit on the bonus after the miss that causes the "P"!   The stage instructions clearly state that if the aerial target is missed with the first shot, an additional shot needed to fired downrange... in this case the additional shot was fired BEFORE the aerial target was hit.  (Insert desired emoji for "tongue-in-cheek" here).  Mighty impressive speed and shooting!  

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

10 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

It looks like he initially pulled 3 as he goes back to his belt after the 3rd shot although he didn’t need another round.

 

He used 5 rounds on the four shotgun targets on this stage at the match.  Yeah, he pulled 4 when he started with shotgun, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY (I had the pleasure to be on his posse, standing next to a family member who was shooting the video).  The last 2 shots (not on video) went onto the knockdown targets, meaning he pulled one more from belt at the end.

 

I'd comment on the scoring discussion, but seems many of you folks would not like it.

 

good luck, GJ 

[Captain Bill Burt]

44 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

He used 5 rounds on the four shotgun targets on this stage at the match.  Yeah, he pulled 4 when he started with shotgun, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY (I had the pleasure to be on his posse, standing next to a family member who was shooting the video).  The last 2 shots (not on video) went onto the knockdown targets, meaning he pulled one more from belt at the end.

 

I'd comment on the scoring discussion, but seems many of you folks would not like it.

 

good luck, GJ 

I'm curious what the call was.

 

If you pause the video and frame by frame it at the two second mark you can see he has three shells in his hand before he throws the first one in, then after three shots he's going back to his belt.

 

Pretty impressive.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

and only apply the time savings (or whatever is stipulated) if they hit the bonus target.

Which is a 5 sec deferential between that shooter and the shooter that didn't get the "bonus"

 

Just like a miss...

 

5 seconds.

 

Phantom

[Hells Comin]

38 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Which is a 5 sec deferential between that shooter and the shooter that didn't get the "bonus"

 

Just like a miss...

 

5 seconds.

 

Phantom

If u didn't hit the flyer it was a miss Plus the extra time to fire a make-up round

[Stump Water]

1 hour ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

It looks like he initially pulled 3 as he goes back to his belt after the 3rd shot although he didn’t need another round.

 

Randy

 

He hadn't put the KDs down yet.

[Stump Water]

On 11/27/2023 at 12:39 AM, Chicken George* said:

A hit on the flier is a 5 second bonus, a miss can be made up with a round down range.

 

20 hours ago, Hells Comin said:

If u didn't hit the flyer it was a miss Plus the extra time to fire a make-up round

 

First Second shot out of the SG:  If you miss the bird your score is time plus 5 sec for the miss; if you hit the bird your score is time minus 5 sec.  

 

So at this point you have a ten second target.  This is the problem I (and a lot of folks) have with "bonus" targets.  You have a target with a higher "value" than all the other targets. 

 

If you missed the bird you can fire another round into the berm to lessen your penalty for not hitting the bird, but your penalty (compared to someone that hit the bird) is still 5 sec + the time it took you fire that 2nd round.

 

If you want to have a flier/bird, then by all means do it (I like them).  But if you miss it it's just a miss.

 

Edited:  The shot at the bird was the second shot out of the SG.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

The stage instructions clearly state that if the aerial target is missed with the first shot, an additional shot needed to fired downrange...

The stage instructions listed above does not mention "with the first shot".  There is no mention of the number of shots allowed on the flyer.

 

5 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

"Move to alleyway with shotgun and engage the shotgun targets and the flier. A hit on the flier is a 5 second bonus, a miss can be made up with a round down range.*

 

That's pretty clear - it was in the air, hence still a "flier" and not a dead target on the ground, and he plainly hit it. Five second bonus, next shooter. Any other shotgun target can be re-engaged, unless the stage instructions state otherwise, why would an aerial be any different?

 

I agree with Johnson.  The instructions as stated, were followed.

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I was at a shoot once.  Repeating shotgun may be stoked on the clock applied to all stages.

One one stage there were 2 falling targets that launched a flier and 4 clays on stands.  Stage instructions said something like, "Successfully engage 6 shotgun targets in any order." 

Everyone shot the one of the falling targets, went for the flier, shot the second falling target, went for the flier, and then went for 2 to 4 of the targets on  stands as needed.

Me, I loaded up my 97 with 1 in the chamber, 5 in the magazine, shot the 4 on stands, and then the two falling ones, ignoring the fliers.   Everyone was like, "Is that legal?  Can he do that?"   I was, "I followed the stage instructions."   The eventual ruling was that I shot it correctly, if in a way no one anticipated.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Hells Comin said:

If u didn't hit the flyer it was a miss Plus the extra time to fire a make-up round

I was talking about the concept of a "Bonus"...if a time savings is given for a "Bonus", then it's no different than any other target once 1 person hits it.

 

They're stoopid if it can effect a change in the outcome of a match.

 

Phantom

[Lone Spur Jake SASS #7728]

"Let's keep it simple."  Stage writing 101.  Stage 6:  "Kill everything in front of you with revolvers and rifle."   NOW, there is a 4+ shotgun portion to the stage, and there are 2 knockdown targets and then a knockdown target that releases a "20 second bonus flyer target."

We have us a couple of knockdown targets first and then we have to engage the knockdown and flyer.  We kill the 2 knockdowns and now we are going after the "bonus" target."   We take the time to kill the next knockdown, then it releases the flyer and we miss it or hit it.

SHOULD BE END OF STAGE!!!!!!  This make up on a stationary if it's a miss on flyer, or if you engage the flyer twice and hit it, or you miss the flyer it's a miss, etc:, etc:, etc:, is just BS!!!!!  

Just keep it simple  Our club, Whiskey Row Gunslingers in Prescott area,  has a member who writes our monthly stages.  He sends them out initially to 4 other members to look for mistakes.  We review the stages and reply if we see problems.  Come match day when posse marshal's are reading stage descriptions to posse we have very few if no questions.

Works for us.

 

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I was talking about the concept of a "Bonus"...if a time savings is given for a "Bonus", then it's no different than any other target once 1 person hits it.

 

They're stoopid if it can effect a change in the outcome of a match.

 

Phantom

You are correct.

 

While I know you do not like discussion of other sports, please bear with me, I note the "Speed Option" stage in Steel Challenge:

 

 

While I usually shoot it 3, 4, 1, 2, Stop, the plate numbered "2" was at one time optional. Failing to engage, or engaging it and missing was not a +3 second penalty, but hitting it was -2 seconds.

 

Somewhere around 2005, the rules changed. No longer optional. No bonus for hitting it, 3 second penalty for a miss. The stage name did not change, but you are absolutely correct:

 

Quote

it's no different than any other target once 1 person hits it.

 

At that moment, it is no longer optional. And participants figured out pretty quick it was worth hitting that target.

 

The only way I could see an optional target being worth skipping is if getting it would likely cost more time than hitting it. And as you note, even that goes out the window as soon as someone actually does hit it.

[Fretless]

2 hours ago, Stump Water said:

 

 

First shot out of the SG:  If you miss the bird your score is time plus 5 sec for the miss; if you hit the bird your score is time minus 5 sec.  

 

So at this point you have a ten second target.  This is the problem I (and a lot of folks) have with "bonus" targets.  You have a target with a higher "value" than all the other targets. 

 

If you missed the bird you can fire another round into the berm to lessen your penalty for not hitting the bird, but your penalty (compared to someone that hit the bird) is still 5 sec + the time it took you fire that 2nd round.

 

If you want to have a flier/bird, then by all means do it (I like them).  But if you miss it it's just a miss.

That is not how shotgun targets work.  Unless the stage directions do not allow make ups,  the only shotgun "misses" that add 5 seconds to your time are those that are not made up.  In other words the only penalty for missing a shotgun target is the time it takes to shoot another round.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

5 hours ago, Stump Water said:

 

He hadn't put the KDs down yet.

Thanks, the video didn’t show him shooting any knockdowns. 
 

Randy

[Stump Water]

17 hours ago, Fretless said:

That is not how shotgun targets work.  Unless the stage directions do not allow make ups,  the only shotgun "misses" that add 5 seconds to your time are those that are not made up.  In other words the only penalty for missing a shotgun target is the time it takes to shoot another round.

 

You're not taking into account the "bonus".

 

Shooter 1 hits the bird.  Freeze time.  Score = time minus five seconds.

 

Shooter 2 misses the bird. Freeze time.  Score = time plus five seconds.

 

Assuming "time", up to pulling the trigger on the bird, is the same for both shooters, right now shooter 1's time is ten seconds less than shooter 2.  So missing the bird was a ten second miss.

 

Now shooter 2 can "make up" PART of the ten second miss by putting another round down range.  5 seconds is subtracted and the time to take the extra shot is added. But there is no way to "make up" the minus 5 seconds that he didn't get because he missed the bird. 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

25 minutes ago, Stump Water said:

Shooter 2 misses the bird. Freeze time.  Score = time plus five seconds.

No, it's actually "Score = time" 

 

Phantom

 

Edit:

 

There flyer is only a "Bonus" and not a regularly scored target. There is no "miss" available for that target. The "miss" only applies to the standard SG targets (KD's in this case).

 

Shooter scores stoopid "Bonus" because the instructions do not specify only one shot on the flyer.

[Chicken George*]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

There flyer is only a "Bonus" and not a regularly scored target. There is no "miss" available for that target. The "miss" only applies to the standard SG targets (KD's in this case).

What you are saying is how most places do it, but not at this match. This bonus was not just a bonus and did have a miss available for it. It actually was scored as Stump Water explained it. I think this is why many were confused. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

27 minutes ago, Chicken George* said:

What you are saying is how most places do it, but not at this match. This bonus was not just a bonus and did have a miss available for it. It actually was scored as Stump Water explained it. I think this is why many were confused. 

Well if that's the case...then it's doubly stoopid.

 

A ten second target that's a bonus target that not a bonus target...nice...

 

Phantom