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Am I the only one?


Mountain Wolf
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I am just curious if many shooters run different bullet weights in their pistols versus their rifles. I find I do better with a lighter weight in pistols but better with the rifle with a heavier weight.  I shoot 38's in both rifle and pistol. Pistol I use 105 gr and rifle i use 125 gr.

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I think you actually answered your own question. You say you do better with 105's in your pistols and 125's in your rifle so it doesn't really matter what the rest of us use. As long as you're good with keeping rifle and pistol ammo separate at the loading table it sounds like you've found what works for you. Shoot and enjoy!

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I've never felt the need. Okay, I did when I first started. Then I realize that the benefit is all in my head.

 

Too light of recoil in your pistols will slow you down...don't get the hassle of doing it.

 

Phantom

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Too light of recoil in your pistols will slow you down.

 

Phantom

Please explain why you say that. 

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Howdy Cholla.

I'm in no way replying for Phantom, but I can attest to his comment.

 

Some of us rely on recoil to achieve ultimate speeds.   This may not matter to many shooters but in effect, some recoil can enhance

a shooters ability to 'purchase' the hammer and recock quicker for those followup shots.

 

Thats about the simplest way I know how to say it.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 minute ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Howdy Cholla.

I'm in no way replying for Phantom, but I can attest to his comment.

 

Some of us rely on recoil to achieve ultimate speeds.   This may not matter to many shooters but in effect, some recoil can enhance

a shooters ability to 'purchase' the hammer and recock quicker for those followup shots.

 

Thats about the simplest way I know how to say it.

 

..........Widder

 

Understood. I know and have watched Jim Martin and he seems to use the recoil to hook the hammer with his thumb. He so dang fast it’s hard to capture. 

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10 minutes ago, Cholla said:

Please explain why you say that. 

Has to do with relaying messages to your brain...

 

Bud and Doc did a study some...many...years back and found that lowering recoil did decreased split times to a point. After that point, split times increased.

 

Phantom

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36 minutes ago, Mountain Wolf said:

I shoot 38's in both rifle and pistol. Pistol I use 105 gr and rifle i use 125 gr.

 

Likewise.  Same powder charge though.  The 105s are a bit cheaper.

 

12 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Too light of recoil in your pistols will slow you down

 

Too light of a load in rifle will slow you down too.  When you have 'bang'... tik-tok... 'clang' it'll slow you down. 

 

To put it another way, if the spotters raise a finger between the cartridge going off and the bullet hitting the target, then you're too light.

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Just now, Stump Water said:

 

Likewise.  Same powder charge though.  The 105s are a bit cheaper.

 

 

Too light of a load in rifle will slow you down too.  When you have 'bang'... tik-tok... 'clang' it'll slow you down. 

 

To put it another way, if the spotters raise a finger between the cartridge going off and the bullet hitting the target, then you're too light.

China Camp used 158gr in his rifle at the big matches...wanted to make sure spotters heard the "hit".

 

For those that don't know who China Camp was...google.

 

Phantom

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11 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

China Camp used 158gr in his rifle at the big matches...wanted to make sure spotters heard the "hit".

 

For those that don't know who China Camp was...google.

 

Phantom

 

 

Never had a chance to meet him. But reading stories about him is one of the reasons that I wanted to join.

 

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1 minute ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

Never had a chance to meet him. But reading stories about him is one of the reasons that I wanted to join.

 

He was my mentor...he was something very special to a lot of folks.

 

I miss him...thanks for sharing the video.

 

Phantom

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I load 105s in pistols, 130s rifle. Both with 3.0 Bullseye. 
 

I did a “blind” study, (a Pard  loaded my pistols) found that with the 105s, was about .4 faster on a 10 shot sweep on average. Dumps were faster, single raps less so.  While .4 doesn’t sound like much, 4 seconds at a 10 stage annyal match is huge 

 

I tried the 105s in rifle, did not like them. Wanted a tad more feedback. 

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3 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I load 105s in pistols, 130s rifle. Both with 3.0 Bullseye. 
 

I did a “blind” study, (a Pard  loaded my pistols) found that with the 105s, was about .4 faster on a 10 shot sweep on average. Dumps were faster, single raps less so.  While .4 doesn’t sound like much, 4 seconds at a 10 stage annyal match is huge 

 

I tried the 105s in rifle, did not like them. Wanted a tad more feedback. 

The "Bud and Doc" study was a little more...scientific.

 

;)

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6 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Never had a chance to meet him. But reading stories about him is one of the reasons that I wanted to join.

A sad loss to the sport and a friend.  A mentor to many, a fine gentleman, and the first to use the phrase, "slow is smooth, smooth is fast."  And, maybe first to demonstrate that the amount of practice was directly proportional to your finish position... 

 

To answer the OP, I used to use 77 grain RB in my .36 Navies, and 225 grain bullets in my .45 rifle... Now that I've short stroked my rifle & going with the C45S, I'll be using powder coated 160s in the rifle... but, I'm still slow as molasses on a cold day... still working on "smooth"...  But, until  I'm a World Champion, listen to Phantom... 

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16 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

He was my mentor...he was something very special to a lot of folks.

 

I miss him...thanks for sharing the video.

 

Phantom

You and CC help us out a bunch when we first started shooting at Cajon Cowboys. 

OLG 

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32 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

You and CC help us out a bunch when we first started shooting at Cajon Cowboys. 

OLG 

Never met China Camp but Phantom has helped out a ton of shooters over the years. Early on was a big influence on my style and shooting, along with others. If someone who is successful is willing to take the time to give pointers I am certainly willing to listen to what they say.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

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2 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Never met China Camp but Phantom has helped out a ton of shooters over the years. Early on was a big influence on my style and shooting, along with others. If someone who is successful is willing to take the time to give pointers I am certainly willing to listen to what they say.

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

Many of the things that I relay to folks were taught to me by China Camp...also Lefty Longridge and Lead Dispencer.

 

Credit where credit is due :P

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51 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The "Bud and Doc" study was a little more...scientific.

 

;)

No doubt it was. I was only sharing my findings. May be different for others. Even exactly opposite. Best to figure it out for yourself. It may only be mental, if you think it helps, it likely does. 

One  indesputable fact. I get 13 more bullets per lb of lead with the 105s 

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ON revolver recoil.

If the load is so light that the gun does not recoil up and back, you have to move your thumb/hand forward to get to the hammer. (Chasing the hammer)

 

With some recoil, the gun goes up and rolls the hammer back to your thumb making for a quick cocking because you catch the hammer before it goes back forward to level thus helping cock the hammer with the weight of the gun leveling.

 

I reloaded commercially and I can say that the most popular bullet for revolvers and rifle was the 125g truncated cones.

Loaded to 1.58" in both 38 special and magnum cases.

The revolvers did not care about the length as long as the cylinder turns but this length feed in all the different manufacturer rifles.

 

The charge was the same in all 38/357 loads.

My load was set for 725'/sec. (back when 650'/sec was the minimum)

 

Also much testing by Old Scout showed the this velocity was the most accurate in most guns we use.

 

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I'm probably not the best person to ask,  I shoot 45 colt rifle and 38 open tops, when I do shoot my 45 pistols I use a 200 grain  hollow based bullet in my pistols. All my rifles get a 205 bearcreek molly, or a  200 grain lead based bullet that I lube with spg or my own lube for black powder.

Rafe

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I do 

shoot 45 Colts

Marlin rifle has a generous chamber so 250 grain bullets allow the case to obturate and not allow blow back

 

having a bit of arthritis in both hands makes the rifle loads un-fun to shoot.  I lower both the powder and use a 200 gr bullet.

 

as to my shooting 'style':  if we have 45 shooters at a match, my goal is to be in the Top 100

 

 

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I load .38's the same for rifle and pistol. For .45, I shoot Schofields in pistols and .45 Colt in rifle. Loading too light will get you misses you didn't deserve. My 2 cents.

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3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Has to do with relaying messages to your brain...

 

Bud and Doc did a study some...many...years back and found that lowering recoil did decreased split times to a point. After that point, split times increased.

 

Phantom

 

I just went back through my notes to be sure.  Comparing what we found as our "ideal" load, compared to a much lighter load, on pure dumps, in both cases we were able to dump shots fast enough that the timer didn't record all the splits.  This implies (but does not prove) that there isn't even an advantage for dump targets with the lighter loads.

 

For the record, our "ideal" was a 125gr bullet at 825 fps. 

 

We only did the test with 38's.

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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30 minutes ago, Straight Arrow Hombre said:

I shoot same bullets in rifle and revolvers. 38 cal 110 grain. I personally haven’t found the need for recoil to help me reach the hammer on my revolvers. 

 

That's not the point of having some recoil, unless maybe you shoot duelist or GF. 

 

Guess I ought to tell the story again......

 

Several years ago I was at a Steel Challenge match.  At this particular match, a shooter could shoot their .22 and another gun.  I was running the clock that day for several shooters, on all 8 stages.  What I did notice is that for the folks shooting "Open class" type guns (at the time, .38 super, red dot sight, compensator, etc.) and those same shooters often had a similarly equipped .22.  So we're comparing apples to apples.

 

What I started to notice, and turned into much more than a trend by the end of the match, was that the split times for the .38 super gun were faster than the splits on the .22. This wasn't just one shooter, and it wasn't just on one stage.  This was consistent from shooter to shooter.  If the commonly accepted thought was that lighter recoil is faster, than why were the higher recoil .38 super's faster from shot to shot? 

 

Once I phrased the question, I spent several weeks researching the topic.  I dove down rabbit holes in kinesiology, ergonomics, martial arts, physiology, input response theory with sports, and several other topics. I came up with a working theory that recoil is needed, not just so the bullet gets to the "ding" faster, but because the human body needs the feedback in order for the subconscious to trigger the  movement to the next thing.  The human body also can redirect that recoil feedback to speed the process of the movement required to do that next thing.  Such as moving the gun from target to target. 

 

Now I have a premise.  How to test?  Well, I loaded up a mess of ammo in reasonably available weights .  From 95gr wadcutters, up to 158 gr rn.  All of which in velocities from 500fps to 1200 fps (yes, I did use a chono to validate).  We ran tests of double taps, triple taps, alternates between targets.  We didn't include first shot time.  We started with gun in hand to remove as much variable of grip changes as possible.  Bud and I, and another shooter (a female to remain nameless) went through all of the iterations with all of the times recorded.

 

For the 3 of us, the fastest splits on double taps and target to target were with 125gr bullets at approx 825 fps.  Triple taps ended up being tossed as splits were often faster than the timer could detect.

 

Obviously others are likely to have different results, but that's what we found for us.  I think we went through 3000 rounds or more that day in testing.  It was an exhaustive session with hard data to back up the results.

 

 

Edited by Doc Shapiro
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Since you asked...

 

When I shoot smokeless, I use 200 g bullets in both rifle and revolvers (45 Colt).  When shooting Black Powder I shoot 250 gr Big Lube bullets (45 Colt brass) in my rifle and 200 gr (Schofield brass) in my revolvers.  That's mostly because I want as much lube as possible in my 24" rifle barrel, and I don't have any 200 gr Big Lube bullets anymore.  Bullets with normal size lube grooves seem OK in my short barreled revolvers.

 

 

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I for one have always felt that one of the real advantages of "rolling my own" (reloading) was that I could tune my ammo to the particular gun and purpose and I generally try to shoot what each gun likes best, especially at an important match.  I can't say that I haven't shot the same ammo in both the rifle and revolvers for convenience sake, but I generally shoot ammo that has proved to be my best choice in each type of firearm.  I've put many a round downrange over my chronograph, used a timer to check split times, and patterned my ammo on paper many times to determine what actually works best and have enjoyed the process as well.  When I shot a Marlin as my main match rifle, I either loaded .357 Magnum cases or long crimped .38's so they would feed better and the overall performance in accuracy and consistency of DEWC bullets in the revolvers is undeniable, but they won't feed in a lever action rifle at all.  So, I generally do shoot different ammo using different components in rifle and revolvers and bullet weight is just one factor.

 

Also as other's have stated, less recoil is not always a good thing and this is especially true for a Gunfighter or Duelist.  Shooting GF, I have found that a 148 grain DEWC at about 800 fps is my best choice and it provides just enough recoil to help me re-cock one revolver while shooting the other one.  Frankly, I think the whole low recoil equals faster shooting thing has been way overblown in our sport.  It really boils down to what one gets used to using and becomes consistent with using far more than lighter recoil.  Of course heavy recoil can cause some issues, but .38's are rather mild to start with and downloading them until they barely come out of the barrel makes no sense at all.  In any case, if you've found what works for you and are willing to go the extra mile in preparation, then good on you!

 

Also wish to thank the Pard that posted the China Camp video, I really enjoyed it and own a pair of USFA "China Camp" revolvers.  Good luck and good shooting to all.  Adios 

 

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