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An observation from a newer member and an open honest question to the audience


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Greetings Cowboys, Cowgirls and the general populace who haunt these storied halls,

 

First and foremost, thank you all for maintaining this break from the grind of the mundane. I already have experienced the generosity and hospitality of the house that we all play to and am thrilled to be on the stage with you.

 

One of my first posts I recall reading in the classifieds in short was a verbal sparring between what appeared to be between a merchant and a cowpoke.

Not suggesting who was in the right of things, it was meaner than a snake in silk sheets.  Guessing the merchant, who by self declaration makes a living buying low, selling for profit had beaten the cowboy to one too many sales. (Maybe using bots or just plain investment in time). Doesn't matter for my tale. Again I am not judging nor openly trying to take a side here...

 

Well over the next few months, I have seen said merchant,  beat the living pants off most everyone on any deal he thought fit his financial model. No matter what you feel about it, man has lighting fast interweb skills. 

 

Fast forward to maybe last week, when a newer to the shooting game pard introduced himself with an opening question essentially" How much do a pair of rugers go for".

I will say to my shame I thought the same thing that several members stated/implied or intoned. Good luck, the fasted merchant in the west stalks the stage line.

 

Allow me to step back a moment, I am but a simple entertainer. While I do have opinions, they are for another day. Back to the tale...

 

As a group, a troupe, a posse, we own the halls we play in; if there is anything that aggravates to the point of such a consistent uproar, then as a community, shouldn't we change the venue? If we do not like the lines, should we not change the script?

 

While I am not advocating a tar and feathering or excommunication of anyone:

If we as a community feel there is a conflict of interest, then work to change what offends!

* make an effort to sell to only players rather than merchants who will resell (as an individual) aye there's the rub, someone might have to take less if just dealing with budgeting cowboys!

*ban merchant/resellers from the classified section, if you want to sell directly to a merchant, you know how to find them!

*or allow a x day period before a reseller can bid

*I am sure there are other ideas that could work for the majority 

*Or do nothing and sit and complain anyway, because hey, we can! :)

 

I hope my tale does not offend (much)

I do hope it starts an open discussion amongst adults.

Popcorn anyone?

 

Shakes Peare

 

 

Edited by Shakes Peare
typo
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I can't blame THAT buyer. I think if a seller is willing to sell low they might should give someone who needs it to participate first chance. Also, buyers need to post they are looking for an item and keep it bumped up to the top. Ask people at shoots if they know someone who would sell. Many local clubs have forums and classifieds you could check.  I had a cowboy give me a good price on a 97 last year and if I start to cut loose with stuff I will do the same.

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You summed up the situation fairly and well. I have also seen folks post on their sales that they did not wish to sell to a re-seller.

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A pretty little sonnet.

An abundance of frilly language deigned to drip honey upon the ears whilst evading the sting of insult upon any party.

 

But...

We're cowboys - we speak plainly.

We extend a hand when needed but we don't ask for handouts.

We believe in being strong and self reliant.

We believe in fair play and if a man betters you - you shake his hand and move on.

 

We don't adorn with poison or back shoot.  

 

The shopkeeper has just as much right to a good or service as any one else.

If he (or she) enters into a mutually agreed upon transaction - then no one else has any place to complain.

 

We do not believe in royalty, hierarchy or status because of position - we believe in hard work and effort.

 

In other words...

If you want something bad enough; put your hands in the dirt, sweat thru your clothes and work for your desires.

Cause no one deserves anything - this is the old west and if you aint quick - you're dead.

 

 

 

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I guess we could make everything fair, not reward effort and not say anything that could ever be thought of by anybody as offensive.  However that isn't likely so it is what it is.  If you don't like it don't sell to him/her if you don't care then accept their promptness and sell away.  Pretty simple really. 

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Be aware that any vender has to pay a substantial amount to SASS to be in the Chronical. Far more than dues cover. The folks on this forum are only a fraction of those in SASS and attending matches that are clamoring for guns from venders like those here. The venders offer their wares to folks that don't frequent other venues like this board. From what I have seen, they don't make that much profit when scaled against the risk of investment. I know of one vender that lost $700 on a gun that was never shipped and he has no recourse.

 

I see the same folks with sour grapes over and over and I see folks that stand up for the venders because of the service they provide. Not once have I seen the venders try to beat someone down on a price. I have seen some of the sour grapes folks try to get something even cheaper.

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I would like to see a feedback link added for both the buyers and the seller. I am a merchat but I don't list here. I mainly use the gun auction sites and over a 22 year  period I have accumulated over 500 all positive feedbacks.

 

My point is I will bend over backwards to avoid a negative feed back. 

 

I also buy from those sites. If the seller has negative feedback the site allows you to see the complaints and the rebuttals. If the negatives are excessive, (to me more then 1%) or the seller comes of as confrontational I will pass on that item.

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I understand both sides of the situation.

 

As the seller, I want to sell as quick as I can for my asking price. The first person to state "I'll take it" is the person that I'll sell to. Would it bother me to sell to a vender. Not at all. The buyer is willing to pay the price asked and will probably not delay payment due to "unforeseen" circumstances. I may not know the vender personally but I have seen the evidence, over the years on the website, that I'm not going to have problems with the transaction.

 

If I were a new shooter, I can see their point. They would like to get the good deal also, they just weren't as lucky or diligent enough to happen upon the deal at the right moment. Always second best, didn't get there five minutes earlier. Just have to get over it and try for the next one.

 

I'm not going to stand up for a vender or a seller. This is the United States, a Nation built upon freedom , free enterprise and (gulp) capitalism. It is the responsibility of the buyer to be vigilant for items that they may want to purchase. 

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You can set it up so every time someone posts a new item for sale in the classifieds, you get a notification. That seems to be the case.

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We want to change the game to attract new shooters, but when they can't find guns for a decent price what are they to do?  Yes, maybe a buyer should be quicker, but some people have lives besides watching the classifieds for deals.  And frankly, I think anyone who will go on somebody else's WTB post and buy guns out from under them is not anyone I ever want to do business with.

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7 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

We want to change the game to attract new shooters, but when they can't find guns for a decent price what are they to do?  Yes, maybe a buyer should be quicker, but some people have lives besides watching the classifieds for deals.  And frankly, I think anyone who will go on somebody else's WTB post and buy guns out from under them is not anyone I ever want to do business with.

Possum, I recently responded to a WTB post on a Marlin 39a. I remarked “you and me both, been looking for one for a while”  later a seller posted some pictures. I replied I would be interested if original poster passes. He did pass, and told me it was all mine if I wanted it. Made the deal. I didn’t feel like I scooped the OP. I made it clear I was 2nd in line. 
 

as for merchants snatching up the good deals, yes it bothers me. On one hand, it’s the American way. But, I also think new shooters should get 1st crack at “deals”.
I even once saw a reseller claim a “free to good home” item. 

I’ve posted items with 2 prices. Reduced price for new shooters, say sass # in most recent 1500 or so, another price for others. I’d also encourage new shooters to post WTB adds 

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5 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Possum, I recently responded to a WTB post on a Marlin 39a. I remarked “you and me both, been looking for one for a while”  later a seller posted some pictures. I replied I would be interested if original poster passes. He did pass, and told me it was all mine if I wanted it. Made the deal. I didn’t feel like I scooped the OP. I made it clear I was 2nd in line. 
 

as for merchants snatching up the good deals, yes it bothers me. On one hand, it’s the American way. But, I also think new shooters should get 1st crack at “deals”.
I even once saw a reseller claim a “free to good home” item. 

I’ve posted items with 2 prices. Reduced price for new shooters, say sass # in most recent 1500 or so, another price for others. I’d also encourage new shooters to post WTB adds 

 That's a great way to handle that, Hoss.

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Well, I wouldn't let the dealings of any vendor put a burr in my saddle.

 

Speaking of vendors, for those I know and especially those I'm aware of their reputations, they are honest folks.

They pay good money to be a SASS Merchant.   

They travel to matches so that most of us can view their merchandise.

If we don't like their prices, we just smile and move on..... OR, we dicker with them for a lower cost.

 

I agree with Creeker.   I couldn't have said it better.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

We want to change the game to attract new shooters, but when they can't find guns for a decent price what are they to do?  Yes, maybe a buyer should be quicker, but some people have lives besides watching the classifieds for deals.  And frankly, I think anyone who will go on somebody else's WTB post and buy guns out from under them is not anyone I ever want to do business with.

I have to agree with that. Capitalism is fine, but come on, if you're a part of the SASS community there is such a thing as the cowboy way, and undercutting someone's WTB ain't it.

 

 

 

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Capt. Bill ?  You're smart, I'm not - what happened here? 

I see more people complain about the rising prices of guns, but nothings getting cheaper, nor are guns getting more available.

And when you look at the price of service on a new Camaro, or the cost of new tires, everyone will want the market to act in their favor.

It's going to be a long two years.....(sad face emoji)

Edited by T-Square
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For those that don'r want a vendor to buy the "good" deals how long should a "good" deal have to be up before anyone other than a new shooter can buy it? An hour, 8 hours, a day, a week?  What decides what a good deal and what isn't. How do you know the vendor is not buying something for a son, daughter, grand child or spouse?

 

What about the new shooter that asks his local dealer to find him a gun or guns. Is the dealer supposed to not buy the first thing he/she sees that fits the request because some other shooter is looking for the same thing? How is are the vendors that cater to SASS supposed to make a living?

 

If you are relying on finding a deal on the sass wire you have have two options. 1 is to get lucky. The other is to figure out how to get notifications in real time as soon as new items are posted on the wire. You also have to do your homework in advance so that when something you want is posted you can instantly tell if it is a good deal, average deal, or bad deal. Lastly have the cash in hand to buy it when you get the chance.

 

As for all the good deals getting bought up in the first minute that is hogwash. On the wire I bought a rifle that was listed for sale for well over 2 weeks. The rifle was a good price alone but it included soule sights that by themselves were worth at least half of the asking price yet not one person even offered to buy the rifle. Eventually I couldn't take it any longer and bought the rifle. Removed the sights and sold them for a little over half what I paid for the gun. This made what I paid for the rifle a steal as I now have a great rifle worth twice what I have in it.

 

Second deal was also a rifle that was a great deal that no one else wanted. Like new rifle for 60% the price of a new one. After watching it get passed over for a couple of weeks I couldn't take it any longer and bought it, knowing that I could always sell it if I didn't like it for more than I paid. Turns out I love it.

 

How long should I have held off buying either of the above deals waiting for the new shooter? Both were sale for well over 14 days yet not one new shooter was interested. 

 

3 years ago you couldn't give away C&B pistols on the wire. Now they are a hot commodity. 

 

I've bought entire lots of leather and reloading equipment off the SASS classifieds because the seller didn't want to sell it piecemeal. In every case I have made money reselling the items I didn't want. Is it wrong I bought the lot as advertised instead of waiting for others to beg the seller to split it up? Is it wrong that I made money for my effort?

 

There is nothing wrong with how things are right now. The beauty of a free market is that those that work hard, do their homework and have the cash in hand, earned the right to get the good deals. Those that don't have to rely on luck.

 

 

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*I never get upset when someone gets a good deal. Whatever their reason. I'm happy for them. I also don't get mad when someone gets a better stage time than I do. I'm happy for them.

*I don't like the idea of giving one type person(new shooter) an advantage over another type person for the purpose of "first dibs". Or any other reason for that matter. Even college entrance preference, or job hiring preference, or loan preference. Earn it, if you want it!

*I don't like it when someone posts a want to buy thread and people say, "if he doesn't want it I do" or some such. It's just kind of rude. Nothing wrong with wanting it but keep it out of the thread. Send them a PM. There is a certain code to keep from having to take a trip to the dentist at the gun shows. If someone is looking at someone else's gun, don't walk up and say "how much" and try to buy it. Wait til the person is finished looking at it, then talk to the seller. To me, it's the same thing.

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10 hours ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

We want to change the game to attract new shooters, but when they can't find guns for a decent price what are they to do?  Yes, maybe a buyer should be quicker, but some people have lives besides watching the classifieds for deals.  And frankly, I think anyone who will go on somebody else's WTB post and buy guns out from under them is not anyone I ever want to do business with.

 

Those people are lower than low. I've seen that a few times in the Classifieds and every time I thought unprintable things about them. 

 

10 hours ago, Hoss said:

Possum, I recently responded to a WTB post on a Marlin 39a. I remarked “you and me both, been looking for one for a while”  later a seller posted some pictures. I replied I would be interested if original poster passes. He did pass, and told me it was all mine if I wanted it. Made the deal. I didn’t feel like I scooped the OP. I made it clear I was 2nd in line. 
 

as for merchants snatching up the good deals, yes it bothers me. On one hand, it’s the American way. But, I also think new shooters should get 1st crack at “deals”.
I even once saw a reseller claim a “free to good home” item. 

I’ve posted items with 2 prices. Reduced price for new shooters, say sass # in most recent 1500 or so, another price for others. I’d also encourage new shooters to post WTB adds 

 

I've suspected that several times. That's basically (IMO) theft as they are "stealing" an item away from someone who probably needed it.

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I finally was able to buy what I was looking for but I had to put up a WTB ad and ask that replies be sent by PM.  That kept any deals off of the open forum and off the radar of the vendors in question. 

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I've said it before, I think the vendors having access to the classifieds provides a much needed service to new people getting into the game.  If I'm looking at making a big investment and I'm not sure I'm going to like it, having more buyers available with money in hand should I decide the purchase I made was not the right one reduces the risk of initial purchases.  If you have a preference for your items to go to a new person at a good deal, as a seller you can do what Hoss recommends and offer a discount to greenhorns.  If you just need the cash so you can take care of a need in your family, or improve your kit for your needs as a SASS shooter and philanthropy isn't your primary objective, there's no wrong in selling to someone who is a vendor.  in my normal life, I often deal with vendors, sometimes selling an item at a loss to one so that I can keep them in business because I value the service they provide.  

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Also, if you're new and you see a vendor that keeps getting the item you want before you can get to it, contact the vendor, ask what services are included for the resale of the item they just beat you to.  maybe they'll slick it up and sell it to you, maybe it comes with a warranty,  Maybe they'll be at a location you frequent so you can handle the good and perhaps not have to pay shipping or FFL fees depending on the situation.  probably they'll at least make sure it's in good working order before they sell it to you, their livelihood depends on good service provided after all.

Maybe for a small finder's fee they'll help you locate exactly what you're looking for.

Edited by El CupAJoe
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Buying and Selling. For some it is a business, for some it is a hobby. Either way it doesn't matter. If someone has something for sale that I want, at a price I am willing to pay, I buy it. I don't care if he bought the same item yesterday on the classified for less. If I want to catch every deal I need to set my alarm earlier and spend more time watching the Classified. 

 

Snakebite

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12 hours ago, T-Square said:

Capt. Bill ?  You're smart, I'm not - what happened here? 

I see more people complain about the rising prices of guns, but nothings getting cheaper, nor are guns getting more available.

And when you look at the price of service on a new Camaro, or the cost of new tires, everyone will want the market to act in their favor.

It's going to be a long two years.....(sad face emoji)

Lol, you're a funny guy T.  I'm nowhere near as smart as you I just use big words that I don't really understand anyway.  Thanks for the compliment though!

 

Believe it or not those tires aren't too bad, about $350 each.  The problem is you can't rotate them because their unidirectional and the back ones are much bigger than the front ones.  It looks cool that way though.

 

I'm not sure, I guess this is a discussion of the propriety of a merchant buying stuff from the classifieds and then reselling at a markup.    

 

From an economic perspective the middleman is adding liquidity to the market, while causing the price level to increase.  I guess some value the liquidity, and don't care about the mark up, while others don't care about liquidity and get offended by the mark up.

 

As I, and others have said, buying something out from under someone on a WTB thread is not acceptable behavior for anyone, vendor or not.   If it were up to me someone doing that would get a ban from the classifieds if the WTB OP pointed out their behavior.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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Does anyone have problems with the seller allowing an obvious dealer to purchase the item? What about the sellers who have obviously been in the game a while and sell their goods at a marked up price? Like a Rodeo for $1200 or a Colt SAA for $2500. Are they just following the market and not price gouging? Why is this dealer, and let's be honest, everyone knows who is being talked about here, such a target for some of you?

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1 minute ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Does anyone have problems with the seller allowing an obvious dealer to purchase the item? What about the sellers who have obviously been in the game a while and sell their goods at a marked up price? Like a Rodeo for $1200 or a Colt SAA for $2500. Are they just following the market and not price gouging? Why is this dealer, and let's be honest, everyone knows who is being talked about here, such a target for some of you?

Great question Goody.  Speaking only for myself.  If I post here in the classifieds I'm going to do my best to offer a deal that all will view as fair, maybe even underpriced just a bit.  That's just the way I want to be seen in this community.    


OTH, if I'm selling on GB, I'm selling for top dollar.

 

I have zero problem with a seller allowing a dealer to purchase an item, and I have zero problem with a seller deciding they don't want to sell to a dealer.  Their stuff, they can sell it however they want. 

 

I do sometimes feel badly when I see new people miss a good deal, it's tough to see that happen.

 

I've been trying to buy a PS5 since they were released back in November.  You just can't get one.  Younger more tech proficient people have bots out buying them and then marking them up on Ebay and other places so that a PS5 that sells retail for $499 will cost about $750.  It's frustrating, but I guess if I really wanted one I would either pay the markup, or learn to code.

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57 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Does anyone have problems with the seller allowing an obvious dealer to purchase the item? What about the sellers who have obviously been in the game a while and sell their goods at a marked up price? Like a Rodeo for $1200 or a Colt SAA for $2500. Are they just following the market and not price gouging? Why is this dealer, and let's be honest, everyone knows who is being talked about here, such a target for some of you?

 

Goody, 

This is a good, honest and worthwhile comment.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Does anyone have problems with the seller allowing an obvious dealer to purchase the item? What about the sellers who have obviously been in the game a while and sell their goods at a marked up price? Like a Rodeo for $1200 or a Colt SAA for $2500. Are they just following the market and not price gouging? Why is this dealer, and let's be honest, everyone knows who is being talked about here, such a target for some of you?

Must live in a cave,  I don't know who we are talking about!

Rafe 

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14 minutes ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Must live in a cave,  I don't know who we are talking about!

Rafe 

Lucky you, you've been spared all the vitriol that is spewed about him.

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Goody, I was not referring to any specific vender nor incident. 

 

I 100% understand capitalism and free market and agree with them.  However, I view pretty much all cowboy action shooters as friends and I think we should all try to help each other out.  While it is a free market, I don't see it as cool to swoop in and buy primers for $50/k then turn around and sell them to my needy friends for $200/k.  Yes, it's legal.  Yes, it's their right.  But I can't see it as morally right.

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33 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Goody, I was not referring to any specific vender nor incident. 

 

I 100% understand capitalism and free market and agree with them.  However, I view pretty much all cowboy action shooters as friends and I think we should all try to help each other out.  While it is a free market, I don't see it as cool to swoop in and buy primers for $50/k then turn around and sell them to my needy friends for $200/k.  Yes, it's legal.  Yes, it's their right.  But I can't see it as morally right.

This is how I feel also.  Not to long ago a shooter buddy sold me 2K Federal SPP for $60, yeah, $60.  Why, because we're friends.  I ended up selling them to a new shooter last month.  He needed them to get in the game.  I charged him what I paid, $60.   I don't need to make money off the back of my pards.  I have a job for that.   

 

Having said that, if I were selling on the Wire Classifieds to a vendor, I would charge that person the same I would charge if I were selling on Gunbroker, whatever the market will bear.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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10 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

This is how I feel also.  Not to long ago a shooter buddy sold me 2K Federal SPP for $60, yeah, $60.  Why, because we're friends.  I ended up selling them to a new shooter last month.  He needed them to get in the game.  I charged him what I paid, $60.   I don't need to make money off the back of my pards.  I have a job for that.   

 

Having said that, if I were selling on the Wire Classifieds to a vendor, I would charge that person the same I would charge if I were selling on Gunbroker, whatever the market will bear.

 

Indeed, I feel the same.

My ole friend, the 'Nanner Man',  ran out of primers right before the TN State last year.

I had a few extra to spare because I hadn't been shooting for a few months and sold him 9K @ about $25 or $30 a brick (don't really remember).

Those were Federal SPM.

 

He said he would pay me back when I die.  He'll probably drop a check in my casket..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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32 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Goody, I was not referring to any specific vender nor incident. 

 

I 100% understand capitalism and free market and agree with them.  However, I view pretty much all cowboy action shooters as friends and I think we should all try to help each other out.  While it is a free market, I don't see it as cool to swoop in and buy primers for $50/k then turn around and sell them to my needy friends for $200/k.  Yes, it's legal.  Yes, it's their right.  But I can't see it as morally right.

Possum, I say this with great respect (and I hope you know that already); but why is it the BUYERS responsibility to set the price?

 

If the seller sets their own price and that price is agreed upon and is met by the buyer - isn't that the way it is supposed to be?

 

If the local Chevy dealer decides to sell new Corvettes for $10,000 - I will purchase every single one.  It is not incumbent upon me to correct their pricing or not purchase because someone else may want a Corvette.

 

I have a moral obligation to avoid causing harm to others when possible. 

I would not deny anyone food, water or necessities of life and would detest seeing others attempting to do so.

 

But primers at $30/k, $300 Ruger Vaqueros or $10,000 new Corvettes do not fall under my umbrella of necessities of life and to the victor go the spoils.

 

And lastly, in my (perhaps wrong) opinion - excepting necessities of life - there is no such thing as price gouging.

There are simply voluntary transactions entered into by two willing participants to exchange one item for another in a manner both feel is equitable.

Because for this exchange to take place - both parties have to determine that they value the others item more than they value their own.

 

And THE only persons with the ability or right to set the value for the good or service is the person who is in possession of that item. 

And the person who is attempting to acquire that item.

And if they are both happy at the end of the transaction - no one else matters.

 

But if the system requires adjustment - don't implement protections - simply change the classifieds to a bidding format.

 

Then everyone gets an opportunity to adjust the price if they feel it is too low.

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And before anyone accuses me of being a heartless slimy so and so - A new shooter just started our game locally. 

A 20ga shooter having difficulty finding shells.

I GAVE him a case of 20ga shells that I had purchased for another purpose and never used.

Told him to pay it forward when he could.

 

My property - I set the value.

To me, at that moment - the value to me of the shells was less than the value of assisting another cowboy shooter.

 

But I could have just as easily and been just as morally correct - placed them on the shelves of my shop and sold them to whomever walked in the door first and wanted to pay my price.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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I have also missed some good deals that were grabbed by a vendor. Good for him basically. No different than Gunbroker or Ebay, if you get outbid-you get outbid. I'm thankful most Pard list an item here first. They could usually make more money on the auction/bidding sites. Where I live, we don't have cell service, so I can't receive instant notifications of a sale. I've missed some by only minutes, but hey, that's the way it goes.

In reference to the vendor I believe we are referring to here, his resale prices are also quite fair and he lists it here to be grabbed when he could just list it on Gunbroker and make more money with less complaining. Carry on!

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