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Which is faster for CC - Model 87 or SxS?


Cholla

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As the heading asks, which is faster for Classic Cowboy? Model 87 or a SxS, all things being equal?

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PLUS ONE too Badlands.

 

It depends entirely (no, not the depends in the plastic package) on how much you want to work on getting "fast" with either one.  However,  A Train Wreck with an '87 is truly to behold.  There may be blood involved.  Individual choice.

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I agree with Badlands Bob, it’s up to the operator.

 

However, to get “fast” with either is going to require a lot of work, IMO.

 

If someone wants an 87, they need to pickup the phone and call Lassiter. To me, it’s that simple.  

 

I’ve used both and, for me, I’m faster with the hammered double.  That probably boils down to huge amount of time I have in the double compared to the 87. I put significant time into the 87, when I thought about switching, and I got pretty good with it and used it in matches but never approached my speed with the double so I ended my “experiment”. 

 

Shooter needs to decide which they are most comfortable with and then put in the work. 

 

Best,

 

Dutch

 

 

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I have been shooting my Coyote Cap '87 a lot more than my SxS lately and I believe the fun factor of running it over the SxS on average probably costs me 1 second per stage. As I shoot the '87 more I expect I will get smoother (faster). Now the caveat here is I usually miss at least one shotgun target when running the SxS simply because I am trying to go faster faster faster, while I do not miss (or have not) with the '87. PLUS, the '87 never hangs up on empty shell ejection, so there's that time involved as well.

 

I don't shoot many monthlies (only two in 2020) and I never practice. With my Henry and '87 and Ruger Bisleys I can run around 30 second stages. Not fast, but consistent. With my '73, Bisleys and '87 I should be able to run 27 second stages. Again, not blazing, but I'm happy with them times. If at all possible, I'll choose the '87 over the SxS just 'cause it's morebetterfunner. :D

 

You gotta put the work in on either.

 

Lassiter and Deuce can run '87s like lightening but I don't think they can beat T Bone on a SxS. Maybe. If you blink though, you'll miss T Bone shooting the SxS. But all these fellers is world class shooters.

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I would look at it like this.

Even if someone could be just as fast with a 87.

The potential for the train wreck seems to be higher with the 87.

One small wreck on one stage will cost you the match.

Might be why the SxS is more popular with most the leading CC shooters.

 

Think the same goes for the 97 in other category's.

And I feel why many of the overall champions switched to the SxS.

 

Having said that. The 87 does look like fun.

But would have way to many moving parts for me.  

 

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I have limited experience with the 87.  I spent a winter trying to get a miserable collection of raw iron PW87 to a point where it would function.   I shot it in one match and every stage was a train wreck.  Sold it and broke even if you didn't count the time I put into it. 

 

I then bought a wall-hanger original Winchester 87 - first year production - and repaired it to function.  As decrepit as it is, it's far and away better than the PW87.  It actually functions. It has no two whatever mods. I just push one down and start the second into the chamber.  I have shot it in a couple of matches.  But the 30" barrel is not handy. (And I'm not going to cut it.)

 

 

I've come to love my CZ-USA Hammer Coach gun.  Light and handy with tall, close hammers that I can cock with a sweep of my left hand and open lever with left thumb like T-Bone does. 

 

For me,  the 87 is just a novelty.  Something different.  Fast is not in question.  But I'd be slower with the 87.  I look at the nice Chiappa 87 that come across the loading table and think that I'd really like to own one.

 

 

  

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7 hours ago, Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L said:

If you want to try an 87, let me know. I have an original and a Coyote Cap.

Thanks. I may take you up on it in the future but from the sounds of it I better stick with my hammered double. I'm challanged enough already. 

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56 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

 

 

I've come to love my CZ-USA Hammer Coach gun.  Light and handy with tall, close hammers that I can cock with a sweep of my left hand and open lever with left thumb like T-Bone does. 

 

 

 

 

  

I have the same SxS. Did you do any modifications? Mine is super stiff to hammer back.

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The trick to being super fast with the 87 is to learn to load with both hands.  Deuce Stevens has an excellent video of this. Then you have to practice it a lot.

 

The other secret is to learn to cut your losses. If you bobble the load and only one shell goes in. Drop the other and just shoot the one. Then load the second 2 and make up the bobble at the end. Learn to do this as part of your practice.

 

The real secret to being fast is to practice transitions. You can shave more time off with efficient transitions that you can by shooting faster.

 

 

I love my 87 but I don't practice except while shooting matches

 

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29 minutes ago, Cholla said:

I have the same SxS. Did you do any modifications? Mine is super stiff to hammer back.

 

Box stock. Check with CZ-USA.  They will likely send you another set of springs for free if you've had the gun less that 5 years.

 

We came across a Liberty that was made by the same company and the springs had been Dremeled to death. I replaced them with springs from CZ-USA.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Cholla said:

As the heading asks, which is faster for Classic Cowboy? Model 87 or a SxS, all things being equal?

http://www.winterrange.com/speedsidematchresults.pdf

Here is a link to the side match results from this years winter range.  The fastest woman with the 87 was also the fastest woman with a hammer SxS.  Serenity was just over a second slower with the 87.  Lassiter with an 87 was just over a second faster than Augustus with a hammer SxS. 

 

As others have said it depends on the shooter, all four styles of shotguns can be run really fast. 

 

Personally I burned up a few cases of Winchester Low Recoil ammo with a Coyote Cap modified 87.  I got better with the 87, but still not as good as I was with a SxS. 

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There are some very fast 87 shooters out there. I ain't one of 'em. I tried for two years to make a Coyote Cap 87 run fast and finally gave it up and went back to my Nate Kiowa Jones Cimmaron hammer  double. Part of my problem is that I've got arthritis in both wrists, which limits my loading options just a skosh. And as others have said here, the trainwreck potential is a good bit greater, in my opinion, with the 87 than it is with the hammered double...

 

IMHO. YMMV! :D 

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I've only been at this a few years and have shot Classic since about my sixth match. I have a TTN that I can run average fast. My problem is about half the time I can't hit with the right barrel.  I know it's a me problem just can't figure it out.  So I was talking to Lassiter at a match and next thing I'm the proud owner of one his 87's. It has taken me a few months to get the hang of shooting it. Train wreck after train wreck but I stuck with it and now I shoot it as fast as I do my sxs and with out missing. Times are starting to improve and I just love the wow factor of the 87. The 87 or the SXS or with any gun takes practice, practice, practice. 

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I had an original 87 and an original Remington 1878 Lifter sxs.  Shot both with bp fullbrass shells.  The 87 could be fast but could go comical.  The sxs was fast enough.

I liked my 87 more when the barrel was still 29".  The extra muzzle weight seemed to position the gun better for loading.

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On 9/21/2020 at 9:14 PM, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Yes.

:lol:

 

I made a comment some time back about wanting to get a SxS as my shotgun because I thought I could run it faster than a '97.

 

@Cholla Since you asked the question, you will now have to get a SxS and an '87 to find out for yourself :lol: I asked the other question and ended up with both of my options to find out. I can't afford to ask your question at this time, but maybe I will someday. :lol: Get them both and find out, it will be fun! Honestly, I think I will be able to run the SxS faster no matter what because it is simpler. I also brought brass shells to load my own loads so they will shuck fast and have just enough power to knock down the targets and pattern well. Tuning my skills for anything else seems like more work...

 

OK, looking at Classic Cowboy... If SxS, that means you need an externally-hammered SxS, and that is an extra step (hand sweeping back over the top to cock both chambers) I do not have to do for how I shoot. That is a moment of time which goes toward the time handling an '87. Watch some videos, look at the movements the fast shooters do with each firearm, and how absolutely minimal they are to accomplish the task.

 

The real question is not which is fastest, instead ask which skill will be the most fun for you to practice. It is the answer to this question which lead me to buy both of the options I was looking at. I don't really know yet which will be fastest for me, I do know mastering the SxS will be fun and I hope mastering the '97 will also be fun. After that, I might ask the question you asked. But I will actually be asking "will I enjoy mastering the '87?"

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In watching the use of the 87 in matches it seemed that the shotgun was already loaded but the action open when it was brought up to the stage. I am most likely wrong. But, I was thinking if I already had two shotgun shells loaded and all I had to do was close the action, that would be a huge time savings. But, as I watched person after person drop rounds on the ground trying for a reload during the match, I also decided I might not have enough ammo on my belt if I had the same issues!

Here's what I think I need to do to improve: Place my shotgun belt in the same location each time so muscle memory takes over and I don't have to fumble for shells, chamfer the openings on the chambers, practice placing the shotgun shells in the same way each time, and practice the sweep to open and cock hammers. While another shotgun would be cool, the prices I see for 87s online give me pause. Practice with my SxS would be much more cost effective.

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Depends on who is running it, I've seen lots of folks that run 87 real fast and they put in lots of practice.  I can run my ttn hammer double faster than my hammerless shotgun.  Tried a 87 for awhile and could get 3 good stages and 3 trainwreck stages. Seemed to work great in the garage when I practiced but in competition the wheels would fall off 

Rafe 

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On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2020 at 6:48 AM, Sedalia Dave said:

The trick to being super fast with the 87 is to learn to load with both hands.  Deuce Stevens has an excellent video of this. Then you have to practice it a lot.

 

Howdy, Sedalia Dave,

Congrats on posting 15,000 times.

That's a whole bunch of opinions.

But, Texans never have been known for being short on words.

Keep'em coming....

 

 

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8 hours ago, Brazos John said:

Howdy, Sedalia Dave,

Congrats on posting 15,000 times.

That's a whole bunch of opinions.

But, Texans never have been known for being short on words.

Keep'em coming....

 

 

 

And every one of them was worth exactly what someone paid for them. :P:D

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1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

And every one of them was worth exactly what someone paid for them. :P:D

Nanner splits on @Sedalia Dave!

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My preferred main match shotgun is a 30" barreled 97.   After using it for many years, I have gotten better with it, but I am still not super fast.

 

Occasionally though, I like to take out my Parker (30" F/F) or my Winchester 87, also with a 30" full choke barrel.  (Do you see a pattern here?)

 

Anyway, while I still prefer the 97, it is very easy for me to see that I could speed up with the SxS and the Lever much more quickly than I did the pump gun.   Meaning I don't think it would take me to get to be "as good" with those as I already am with the 97.

For 87's, I've got the above mentioned Winchester, and a Chiappa made modern one in "Mare's Leg" configuration.   The Winchester was worked on by Coyote Cap when I first got it do it not feeding shells from the magazine.  In it's very long life, some internal stuff had worn out with age.   Cap fixed it up for me and got it running like new again.  I specifically requested no modifications, I wanted to gun to run as it was designed to.   The Chiappa is as it came out of the box, and it runs just as nice as the Winchester.   If someone was in the the market for an 87 and asked my opinion, I'd say get the Chiappa, it's very well made.

But in any case, be it the original or the replica, I have found that it's very easy to operate the thing, and that even without the so called "Drop Two" modification, you can load 2 rounds at a time.   Not as quickly as if you've got the mod, but it can be done.   And there is something about it that just lends itself to a quick learning curve.   I plan to play with it some more in the time to come, and it just may supplant my 97 someday.  IF I can find a modern replica with a long full choked barrel.   I just like 'em that way.   And I hate screw in chokes.  (I don't wanna use my real Winchester more than once in a while.)

I'm wierd.

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I am a lover of 87s, and did plenty of CC with SxSs, but behold, here is the truth and the gospel.

 

You are fastest with whatever one you practice with.

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