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evil dogooder

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Ok this happened some months ago but it's been bugging me

 

   A junior shooter struggling with really poor reloads all day. Shot barely dribbling out there barrel several times.   Spotter tells stop because wad is visibly still in the barrel. Only a tiny bit sticking out of the barrel.  The shooters dad starts yelling shoot it out.     What are your thoughts. 

 

     Turns out it was the last stage and they had a clean match going.  Personally I wanted to kick the dads butt for the horrible lesson just taught.   That winning is more important than safety. 

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Follow instructions of the stage officials.

 

Clean matches are nice, but. . .

And, yes it was probably safe to shoot out, but why risk it?  And it is not a good practice.

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Maybe you can shoot it out.  Maybe not.  I have seen a guy "shoot it out." and "out" was out the SIDE of the barrel.  Nobody hurt.  It would be my inclination to wrap the shotgun barrel around the father's head.  There is no effective treatment nor cure for STUPID.

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21 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

A junior shooter struggling with really poor reloads all day. Shot barely dribbling out there barrel several times.   

 

     

 

Why didn't  someone have had the Match Director check their ammo at some point?

 

Seems to me like they should have changed ammo well before the last stage.

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PLUS ONE too Tyrel.  Two squibs and your ammunition is suppose to be disqualified.  The suspect ammo goes back to your transportation and to continue, you change ammo or "shake the hat."

 

Father figure is still STUPID.

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42 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

OK, I'll bite where in the rules does it say 2 squibs and your ammo is disqualified?

Dad should have been awarded some sort of keep your mouth shut ruling!

Ike

 

Not anywhere that I can find but RO2 does say:

Multiple squibs by a shooter will be cause for the Timer Operator to request the shooter change ammo.

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1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Not anywhere that I can find but RO2 does say:

Multiple squibs by a shooter will be cause for the Timer Operator to request the shooter change ammo.

Around here we see "multiple" as more than one and will ask for an ammo change for the safety of the shooter, TO, spotters and others.

If the shooter chooses not to comply I do not know of any penalty but have seen a TO decline to time them.

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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You’re right.  The shooter kid should have been stopped early on.   Daddy should have been formally warned off by the posse marshal or TO.  TO should have told shooter kid to lay the weapon down.

 

Cat Brules

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1 hour ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Squibs do not meet power factor. Ammunition that doesn’t meet power factor is illegal ammunition. The crappy ammo situation should have be addressed way before the last stage.

 I agree with this,  however how many times have you seen kids ammo used that definitely doesn't meet power factor.  Ive seen it more times than not on people who think a 12 gauge is the better option. 

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Out of curiosity,  since the wad was visible in the end of the barrel, could it have been plucked out and the shooter continued with the clean match?  Or alternatively blown out from the breech?  What was the TO doing for all the other squibs?  Since he had a clean match going, I assume they were checking the gun to be sure the barrel was clear and letting him continue.  Either that or he was lucking out and all squibs were either the last shot with the gun, or always with a pistol and he was able to use the other pistol to complete the string. 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Around here we see "multiple" as more than one and will ask for an ammo change for the safety of the shooter, TO, spotters and others.

If the shooter chooses not to comply I do not know of any penalty but have seen a TO decline to time them.

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

As I already mentioned Squibs don’t meet power factor as they evidently are going 0 feet per second. If they cannot meet power factor there are procedures and penalties in place to be applied appropriately. 

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If the TO commands the shooter to "Cease Fire" or "Stop" and the shooter willfully disregards that command, the shooter has just earned a MDQ. I know it was a spotter who commanded "Stop". Not sure if this qualifies for the MDQ if ignored.

 

In any case, the father needs to be STERNLY talked to so that he is aware to NEVER countermand any command issued by the TO. He also should be made aware that the ammo in question is unsafe ammo. If he takes offense at the talk, well tough sh#t. I'd rather loose two shooters due to a pissed off father rather who know how many shooters due to injury. No father wants to loose face in front of their kid but I would think no father wants their kid to loose their face in front of him either.

 

The 2 squib "rule" isn't really a rule. Most, if not all, of the ranges around here have this rule in place as a range rule. Might not be a bad idea to have it in the rule book.

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5 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

"It would be my inclination to wrap the shotgun barrel around the father's head.  There is no effective treatment nor cure for STUPID."

 

But would it make him any smarter?!! :D

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Out of curiosity,  since the wad was visible in the end of the barrel, could it have been plucked out and the shooter continued with the clean match?  Or alternatively blown out from the breech?  What was the TO doing for all the other squibs?  Since he had a clean match going, I assume they were checking the gun to be sure the barrel was clear and letting him continue.  Either that or he was lucking out and all squibs were either the last shot with the gun, or always with a pistol and he was able to use the other pistol to complete the string. 

 

 

What happened was the TO did pull it out.      That's not what really bugged me.  What stayed with me and bugged me was the dad yelling to keep shooting....    I agree that more than likely nothing would have happened but they didnt even open the gun to see if that was the only problem before he started yelling..    it really made me ponder what type of person that made him.

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Originally I would say "shoot it out" was OK.  I learned I was wrong, wrong, wrong!  What happens with SG wad that doesn't clear the barrel is that the cooling plastic MAY weld the wad to the barrel.  If it welds, you have an obstructed barrel.  The pressure from the obstruction will exceed the barrel strength and It will blow up.  It's not safe to shoot it out.

 

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39 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

What happened was the TO did pull it out.      That's not what really bugged me.  What stayed with me and bugged me was the dad yelling to keep shooting....    I agree that more than likely nothing would have happened but they didnt even open the gun to see if that was the only problem before he started yelling..    it really made me ponder what type of person that made him.

 

I’d tell you but I don’t think we’re allowed to use that kind of language on The Wire.;)

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10 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

PLUS ONE too Tyrel.  Two squibs and your ammunition is suppose to be disqualified.  The suspect ammo goes back to your transportation and to continue, you change ammo or "shake the hat."

 

Father figure is still STUPID.

Where is this written?

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6 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Squibs do not meet power factor. Ammunition that doesn’t meet power factor is illegal ammunition. The crappy ammo situation should have be addressed way before the last stage.

Squibs are not considered match ammo. They are primer only and/or low powder ignition, not ammo.

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11 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Follow instructions of the stage officials.

 

Clean matches are nice, but. . .

And, yes it was probably safe to shoot out, but why risk it?  And it is not a good practice.

On a "shoot it out" situation, everyone on the stage at the time is at risk of physical injury. If you've ever seen a shotgun barrel rupture under fire, you will understand.   It really isn't worth it, clean match or not.   And you don't know what kind of choke may be in the barrel, keeping the wad from passing.  

 

The SHB is fairly clear about what to do in a squib situation.  It doesn't differentiate based on varying risk assessments at the time and under the clock. 

 

"In the event of a suspected squib, the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm.  If the barrel is later determined to be clear, the shooter will receive a reshoot" 

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6 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Out of curiosity,  since the wad was visible in the end of the barrel, could it have been plucked out and the shooter continued with the clean match?  Or alternatively blown out from the breech?  What was the TO doing for all the other squibs?  Since he had a clean match going, I assume they were checking the gun to be sure the barrel was clear and letting him continue.  Either that or he was lucking out and all squibs were either the last shot with the gun, or always with a pistol and he was able to use the other pistol to complete the string. 

 

 

The SHB says the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm.   Sweeping your hand isn't making the firearm safe or continuing with the next firearm.   SDQ for trying that one, if unloaded.  MDQ if loaded.  

I don't see how shooter could have had a clean match going after multiple squibs.  Each squib would have at least have been a miss of some kind. 

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4 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Please tell me where you found this information.

I was curious too.   Are they match ammo up until the squib occurs? They certainly wouldn't meet power factor if tested.    

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12 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

The SHB says the CRO/TO will instruct the shooter to make the firearm safe and continue with the next firearm.   Sweeping your hand isn't making the firearm safe or continuing with the next firearm.   SDQ for trying that one, if unloaded.  MDQ if loaded.  

I don't see how shooter could have had a clean match going.  Each squib would have at least been a miss if some kind. 

Not if it's a junior.   They don't have to knock down shotgun targets

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2 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

Not if it's a junior.   They don't have to knock down shotgun targets

True, but they do have to hit them, and shot "barely dribbling out the barrel" is hardly hitting them? Or is it?  But I do get your point in any other situation.  

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16 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

Not if it's a junior.   They don't have to knock down shotgun targets

Au Contraire... Buckaroos and Buckarettes don't have to knock down KD targets, but I don't find the same exclusion for Junior Boy/Girl competitors.   Refer to page 5, Shooter's Handbook, Ver 24.1, Jan., 2020.

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6 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

As I already mentioned Squibs don’t meet power factor as they evidently are going 0 feet per second. If they cannot meet power factor there are procedures and penalties in place to be applied appropriately. 

Did someone suddenly insert a power factor requirement on shotgun rounds into the Shooters Handbook?

 

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4 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Did someone suddenly insert a power factor requirement on shotgun rounds into the Shooters Handbook?

 

No, I’m talking about centerfire ammunition. There was a general discussion about 2 squibs and the ammunition being disqualified or requiring a change. Continued squibs can be resolved by using the power factor rule. I guess if you have crappy shotgun ammo you can shoot it all match.

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"Unsafe" ammo is just that, and shotshells that leave the wad in the barrel fit that description.  Power factor and fps are not the only determining factors in whether ammo meets minimum safe requirements.

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