Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 This came to mind yesterday at our cool temp match. Folks were shedding the coats when they shot and then put them back on as soon as the cleared unloading table. Shooter comes to line, lays his long guns down and then removes his coat and throws it over the window frame at end of building. Rifle and pistols: fine, no problems Shotgun: uses all his ammo and still has one KD standing. Lays open and clear shotgun down goes to his coat and removes two shotgun shells from a pocket returns to shotgun, loads and shoots KD which finally goes down Coat was placed on firing line, he didn't have to leave firing line to retreve shells. Your thoughts?
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 I think he needs a new shotgun belt
Hillbilly Drifter Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 I am learning toward no call. Here is what I see on page 28 of the SHB the question is was it staged in an approved manner. Based on your description of the events I would say no call Illegally acquired ammunition is any ammunition not carried to the line and/or staged by the shooter in an approved manner.
Yusta B. Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 Fine by me - no advantage gained time wise for sure.
Captain Bill Burt Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 Carrying ammo to the firing line in your pockets is an approved manner, so I would say no call.
McCandless Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 SHB: Vers 23.2 pg 3 - Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person, in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, pouch, holster, pocket, or be safely staged as required by stage instructions. Since all ammo used must come from the shooter's person, or staged per stage instructions, that would be 10 seconds worth of penalty. 5 seconds for "Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition". pg 23
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 I wouldn't call it as he didn't leave the line.
Captain Bill Burt Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, McCandless said: SHB: Vers 23.2 pg 3 - Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person, in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, pouch, holster, pocket, or be safely staged as required by stage instructions. Since all ammo used must come from the shooter's person, or staged per stage instructions, that would be 10 seconds worth of penalty. 5 seconds for "Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition". pg 23 It was carried to the line on the shooter's person, in his pocket. I guess it comes down to whether you consider putting your coat down on a table 'staging the shotgun shells'. I'm sure PWB will chip in at some point, but right now I'm leaning towards no penalty. There's certainly no competitive advantage to what was done.
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 Fine...and then thank him for coming on a cold day.
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 Weird?? I'm leaning.. Yes the ammo was carried to the line in an approved manner.. Had his coat on.. but.. It was not staged by an approved manner as per scenario once he took his coat off.. 5 second penalty for each round used.. Rance Thinkin' fingers crossed..
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Fine...and then thank him for coming on a cold day. ^ this. ..........Widder
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 I will wait for PWB before I rant about overly-punitive rule interpretations. I hope the rant isn't necessary; however, I fear it may be.
McCandless Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 53 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: It was carried to the line on the shooter's person, in his pocket. I guess it comes down to whether you consider putting your coat down on a table 'staging the shotgun shells'. I'm sure PWB will chip in at some point, but right now I'm leaning towards no penalty. There's certainly no competitive advantage to what was done. On a frozen day, I'm not saying I'd actually call it. Probably I'd just laugh. Just putting out there what the rules actually say. There's a lot of stuff that goes on in various circumstances that we wouldn't and couldn't do in a major match. I probably wouldn't be allowed to use my .45-70 as my main match rifle like I sometimes do at a local match, (properly downloaded to cowboy .45 Colt velocities). Slow but fun to do now and then.
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 No different than a shooter taking two shells out of his pocket and laying them on the window sill to use during the stage. Stage instructions didn't say he could stage shotgun shells so, illegally acquired ammo 2 misses and P. This ain't T ball. Ike
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said: No different than a shooter taking two shells out of his pocket and laying them on the window sill to use during the stage. Stage instructions didn't say he could stage shotgun shells so, illegally acquired ammo 2 misses and P. This ain't T ball. Ike And it ain't the Superbowl either...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said: I will wait for PWB before I rant about overly-punitive rule interpretations. I hope the rant isn't necessary; however, I fear it may be. In that case, being forewarned, I'll refrain from posting anything "official" until this thread reaches page 4 (or the ROC comes to a consensus, whichever happens first) except for: IMO..."Winter Rules" in effect...apply as needed.
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: In that case, being forewarned, I'll refrain from posting anything "official" until this thread reaches page 4 (or the ROC comes to a consensus, whichever happens first) except for: IMO..."Winter Rules" in effect...apply as needed. In my opinion, when the ROC can't come to a 'consensus', that means to me that the rule ain't exactly 'clear' and in those circumstances, the shooter should benefit from a 'No Call'. I ain't saying that there isn't a penalty against it but rather the circumstance that may warrant the penalty are not clearly defined to make an immediate call. The shooter apparently carried the ammo to the line in a legal manner.....in his pocket. Instead of staging the ammo, he staged his pocket..... Would this be any different than someone who had their SG belt break and they laid their belt on the table to use? PLEASE NOTE: this comment was posted to help assist this thread make 4 pages..... and to help keep PWB entertained until the Super Bowl comes on tonight. ..........Widder
Yusta B. Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 12 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: PLEASE NOTE: this comment was posted to help assist this thread make 4 pages..... and to help keep PWB entertained until the Super Bowl comes on tonight. ..........Widder Yeah, right Widder - like PWB NEEDS more entertainment ! Too funny .......,,
Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 WOW it's amazing how many WTC's are out there...in this case I would say a no call...the rules for our game are easily applied in straight forward situations, in grey areas not so easy without consultation to achieve the correct outcome.
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: In my opinion, when the ROC can't come to a 'consensus', that means to me that the rule ain't exactly 'clear' and in those circumstances, the shooter should benefit from a 'No Call'. ... ...and to help keep PWB entertained until the Super Bowl comes on tonight. .........Widder FWIW - The question hasn't been presented to the ROC for discussion...yet. ...and what is this "Super Bowl" of which you speak??
Cowboy Small Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: FWIW - The question hasn't been presented to the ROC for discussion...yet. ...and what is this "Super Bowl" of which you speak?? It's what most call "the big game " as "Superbowl" is owned by the NFL and using it without paying for the privilege can cost you a lawsuit . Just ranting to get to page 4. Hope this helps . CS
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 I wouldn't want to make the call on the shooter either.. Hey.. It's cold out.. Do the best ya can.. Let it go.. It's just a monthly.. But... We've been told and scolded many times here on the wire.. Rules are rules.. Make the call.. So the shooter can learn by their mistakes.. Let's say this happened at E.O.T?? The shooter is in 1st. Place?? Would you make the correct call then?? Rance Just sayin'
Tennessee williams Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 The correct and only call in this situation is
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 How unsafe was the action? Shooter did not leave the line without going through the unloading table. Also, from p. 4 of the SHB (bold is mine), "Any ammo carried to the line in an illegal/unapproved manner that is actually used for stage reloads falls under the 'Use of illegally acquired ammunition' penalties." I think that, if the ammo was not "carried to the line in an illegal/unapproved manner," it is legal for use. After all, if you load your SG at the wrong time, you can pull out the shell, set it down, then use it at the appropriate time.
Tyrel Cody Posted February 3, 2019 Posted February 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: The correct and only call in this situation is What? I'm with Rance on this one.
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted February 4, 2019 Posted February 4, 2019 SHB pg 26/27 "... or rounds safely placed onto a prop from their original loading area (his jacket [pocket) may be recovered and used. - Illegally acquired ammunition is any ammunition not carried to the line and/or staged by the shooter in an approved manner. He carried it to the line, staged the coat on the firing line... What's the prob?
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 4, 2019 Posted February 4, 2019 Furthermore, from p. 28, SHB, "Dropped rounds or rounds safely placed onto a prop from their original loading area may be recovered and used. In any case of recovery of a dropped or safely placed round must be performed carefully as to not create a loss of muzzle control." I say the ammo was carried to the line legally and safely placed onto a prop.
Yusta B. Posted February 4, 2019 Posted February 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, Yul Lose said: Ingenuity. & persistence & determination Bravo !!
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted February 4, 2019 Posted February 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: The correct and only call in this situation is Me thinks TN Williams has run out of ink in his computer. ..........Widder
Carolina Gunslinger Posted February 4, 2019 Posted February 4, 2019 In order to help this get to page four...the rules are super jacked up if you can't make the call...on the spot. Looking forward to the ROC getting to the bottom of the coat shotshell caper. If only I could count how many times I have pulled shotshells out of a coat while hunting...off the ground.
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 4, 2019 Posted February 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said: The correct and only call in this situation is 44 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: Me thinks TN Williams has run out of ink in his computer. ..........Widder Me thinks he's agreeing with me - nothing = no call!
Hellbender Posted February 4, 2019 Posted February 4, 2019 I'm just an innocent bystander helping this get to page 4
Major BS Walker Regulator Posted February 4, 2019 Posted February 4, 2019 I wouldn't have remembered I even had shells in my pocket.
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