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Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L

WTC?

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Just my thoughts.. :rolleyes:

These "What's the Calls" threads on our SASS Wire are placed here 

by any shooter for our (everybody's) proper learning experience.. 

We need to know the correct calls.. Not all the What if's..

 

And yes all clubs and members (me included) are lenient at their monthly

match from time to time.. And nobody wants to be a harda$$..

but to me we don't need to know "this is what I'd do in this situation "

We need to have the "Correct Call" for the "Original post"..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' I read every WTC thread to learn the correct call..:huh:

Not what would be called at a monthly match..

also Thinkin' I feel my ears burning  :D:D

 

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Well, I just talked with PWB and here is what he told me..........

 

Quote

 

                                 ".

 

Darn it, I'm out of blue ink and therefore, can't type out his comments.

 

Sorri.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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There is always a clear dichotomy on these wtc threads. Odd observation that it is usually between the same groups of people. I wonder if it has to do with differences in personalities, comprehension, or just an aversion to agreeing with someone we debated before.

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9 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

There is always a clear dichotomy on these wtc threads. Odd observation that it is usually between the same groups of people. I wonder if it has to do with differences in personalities, comprehension, or just an aversion to agreeing with someone we debated before.

 

I have no idea what you just said..... :)

Do you not know how to spell Dikshunary?

 

..........Widder

 

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4 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I have no idea what you just said..... :)

Do you not know how to spell Dikshunary?

 

..........Widder

 

I did understand him, should I be worried?

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15 hours ago, July Smith said:

The cleavage needs to be below the belly button. 

Is that a "plumber" joke ?   :lol:

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7 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I have no idea what you just said..... :)

Do you not know how to spell Dikshunary?

 

..........Widder

 

Widder translation:

  Theys always 2 sides to this here fuedin. It boils down to the same bunches of folks near ever time. I got no idea if its they upbringin, or just plain old hard headedness.

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Let's not get all fired up - at least not just yet.

 

877995191_hatfieldandmccoyfeud1.jpg.2cf2a71882fc043317d909d5b9f90dc2.jpg

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Did the coat in question break the 170 when retrieving the ammo? Did the unworn coat have the staged ammo in the lower pocket at or below the belly button? When retrieving the shells did someone make sure that the ammo was not canted outward in the pocket for an added advantage? :lol:

 

In all seriousness, I just wanted to say I love these threads.  Both for the clarification for given scenarios and the banter. 

 

CD

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Subjectivity ruined idpa for a lot of people and it took them forever to correct. There was a round dumping rule that was difficult to define and mostly lead to arguments as to the fairness of the call and was hugely subjective based on competitive advantage gained. You could on a whim take a person out of the running. Sass rules are apparently very simple to some, but confusing as a 1040 to others. The aversion to being a stickler for the rules at a monthly is a stark contradiction of not being subjective and calling a fair match. While Mr. Irish lamented heavily on this, there is a valid point to be made there. Redo the rules so that more folks can understand them. Streamline, simplify, eliminate subjectivity. If you need more than four hours to learn the rules in class, it's too much. Do away with stage DQ in favor of match DQ and ten second penalties. Major vs minor safety violations...empty shell no call, loaded shell DQ, round in gun but not in action no call. Do everything possible to eliminate WTC threads...they are an indication that your rules are poorly written albeit they are entertaining to an extent. 

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I have no idea what you just said..... :)

Do you not know how to spell Dikshunary?

 

..........Widder

 

Widder translation:

Theys 2 groups on here whats always a feudin. Its purt near the same bunches of folks ever time. Reckon its theys upbringin, smarts, or just plain hard headedness?:lol:

 

That was just painful.

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18 minutes ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Subjectivity ruined idpa for a lot of people and it took them forever to correct. There was a round dumping rule that was difficult to define and mostly lead to arguments as to the fairness of the call and was hugely subjective based on competitive advantage gained. You could on a whim take a person out of the running. Sass rules are apparently very simple to some, but confusing as a 1040 to others. The aversion to being a stickler for the rules at a monthly is a stark contradiction of not being subjective and calling a fair match. While Mr. Irish lamented heavily on this, there is a valid point to be made there. Redo the rules so that more folks can understand them. Streamline, simplify, eliminate subjectivity. If you need more than four hours to learn the rules in class, it's too much. Do away with stage DQ in favor of match DQ and ten second penalties. Major vs minor safety violations...empty shell no call, loaded shell DQ, round in gun but not in action no call. Do everything possible to eliminate WTC threads...they are an indication that your rules are poorly written albeit they are entertaining to an extent. 

 

If you despise the handbook so much why not rewrite it in a way that makes sense to you and submit it to the ROC?

 

Otherwise stop insulting all the folks that put in a lot of their own time to give us a reasonably good set of rules.

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3 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

Did the jacket in question have any logos on it?

 

24 minutes ago, Carolina Drifter said:

Did the coat in question break the 170 when retrieving the ammo? Did the unworn coat have the staged ammo in the lower pocket at or below the belly button? When retrieving the shells did someone make sure that the ammo was not canted outward in the pocket for an added advantage? :lol:

 

In all seriousness, I just wanted to say I love these threads.  Both for the clarification for given scenarios and the banter. 

 

CD

 

The coat was brown in color, no logos and was in the style of the 1880s

 

shells were carried in a lower pocket well below the belly button

 

they were carried in the left lower pocket which was the one at the top of the folded coat or more accurately, the coat was held by the collar and drapped over the windown, half inside and the top half outside.  The inside was where the pocket with the shells were

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1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

If you despise the handbook so much why not rewrite it in a way that makes sense to you and submit it to the ROC?

 

Otherwise stop insulting all the folks that put in a lot of their own time to give us a reasonably good set of rules.

I already asked him to do that... Haven't seen even a rough draft yet.

 

:lol:

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48 minutes ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Subjectivity ruined idpa for a lot of people and it took them forever to correct. There was a round dumping rule that was difficult to define and mostly lead to arguments as to the fairness of the call and was hugely subjective based on competitive advantage gained. You could on a whim take a person out of the running. Sass rules are apparently very simple to some, but confusing as a 1040 to others. The aversion to being a stickler for the rules at a monthly is a stark contradiction of not being subjective and calling a fair match. While Mr. Irish lamented heavily on this, there is a valid point to be made there. Redo the rules so that more folks can understand them. Streamline, simplify, eliminate subjectivity. If you need more than four hours to learn the rules in class, it's too much. Do away with stage DQ in favor of match DQ and ten second penalties. Major vs minor safety violations...empty shell no call, loaded shell DQ, round in gun but not in action no call. Do everything possible to eliminate WTC threads...they are an indication that your rules are poorly written albeit they are entertaining to an extent. 

   I for one find our rules fair, just, and easy to understand. The confusion comes in when "someone has always done it this way" or "such and such said they changed this or that rule". 

   I don't agree with the term discretionary call either. I think it is more common sense than anything. Someone spends 30 or 45 seconds getting a shell out of their pocket to shoot a leftover knockdown tells you they arent trying to cheat and win that cadillac or prize money we get after every match. Yeah, it's illegal ammo. Just laugh and call next shooter. By the way, this is the first time I have been of the mind set of no call. The situation this was in dictated that. Take it as the fun it was inteded at a special cold match or whatever it was.

 

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15 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So I'm shooting EOT and someone in my category on another posse is given a discretionary call by that TO. And that decision effects the outcome of the match. Is that what we are proposing?

Ike

Just how probable is this hypothetical scenario?!

 

Your telling me that shooting sub-freezing temperatures at EOT, someone who put down their shotgun (make safe), took a walk to get more shells out of their coat on the line, then took a walk back to the shotgun, loaded and engaged one target, is still going to be able to beat your score on the stage and win the match?!

 

And because we have a great time and do out of the norm shooting techniques at monthly matches, that range officers at EOT are going to allow the same thing at EOT? Your not worried about the "disservice to the shooter", your just being a control freak. If this bothers you so much, why do you shoot where you shoot? Why does everyone else who are having fun have to forgo their entertainment for your obsession for rules? I will never make it to EOT. I'm in End Stage Kidney Failure and barely survived the TN State Match last year. All I want from SASS is to shoot with my friends and take my mind off my daily situation at home...

 

After surgery, I was allowed to shoot at three different ranges in KY in a manner inappropriate for EOT. I would hope this had no affect on the 60 other shooters  that may, at some point in their lives show up at EOT!

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17 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

That's silly. 

 

Perhaps it's a Wire thing...to take everything to extremes. Are we not capable of applying discretion??

 

Geeze...

 

If you are referring to the "lets stipulate that we won't call anything at a monthly ever" part, it was intended to be silly.  But I was serious about how "it's only a monthly" muddies the waters on these threads which should be used as an opportunity to clarify the rules. 

 

Rules enforcement at monthly matches is a good topic to discuss, I just wish it had it's own thread and we didn't have to rehash it in every WTC thread. 

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Blast Masterson

My point is, anyone who makes a discretionary decision to not follow a rule effects the outcome for everyone.

2018 EOT top 5 shooters 180, 192, 194, 195, 196. Any lack of enforcement of a rule would have changed the outcome. A 10 second procedural, as should be applied here, would drop anyone out of contention for the top spots. If you don't enforce it for one, even tough they have no chance in hell of winning anything, you still do a disservice to everyone.

And by not notifying a shooter of an error you are effecting his understanding of the rules and the game.

Rules are made to be applied, not arbitrarily applied.

Ike

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19 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

What does the ROC not like about staging rounds in cleavages? 

I hereby volunteer my services in safely retrieving any such rounds.  Solely for the purpose of saving the shooter from a potential penalty!--of, course!

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6 minutes ago, Smoky Pistols said:

I hereby volunteer my services in safely retrieving any such rounds.  Solely for the purpose of saving the shooter from a potential penalty!--of, course!

 

You do realize @The Original Lumpy Gritz keeps his extra shotshells there right? :P:lol:

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On a serious note, other sports in which I’ve competed have sanctioned and nonsanctioned competitions/tournaments.  If it is sanctioned, the local event holder is required to apply the rules of the sanctioning organization, and competitors can go over the head of the local event holder for a ruling.  Does SASS work that way at all?  If so, how can you tell if the event is sanctioned?

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2 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

You do realize @The Original Lumpy Gritz keeps his extra shotshells there right? :P:lol:

I do hope you will at least warm your hands, the next time you grab my 'ammo'..........:P

OLG

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9 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

You do realize @The Original Lumpy Gritz keeps his extra shotshells there right? :P:lol:

Well, ---apparently learned from reading this thread---there's gonna have to be a penalty accessed sooner or later!  :lol:Just the price to be paid!

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12 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Blast Masterson

My point is, anyone who makes a discretionary decision to not follow a rule effects the outcome for everyone.

2018 EOT top 5 shooters 180, 192, 194, 195, 196. Any lack of enforcement of a rule would have changed the outcome. A 10 second procedural, as should be applied here, would drop anyone out of contention for the top spots. If you don't enforce it for one, even tough they have no chance in hell of winning anything, you still do a disservice to everyone.

And by not notifying a shooter of an error you are effecting his understanding of the rules and the game.

Rules are made to be applied, not arbitrarily applied.

Ike

The point is though, the shooter that takes 30 or 45 seconds to go grab a shell out of his coat aint gonna be top 5 at EOT. Or anywhere for that matter. I happen to like being up on the rules and knowing them. I am not however one of those people looking over everybodies shoulder with my nose stuck in the handbook searching for a call to make to feel special.If youre gonna play the game, know how to play it right. Everybody wants to have fun in their own way. It may be dressing the part down to socks, but dont chastise me for that not being my thing. It may be taking a minute to shoot a stage and have no misses, but dont chastise me for having a miss. It may be shooting the fastest stage possible, but dont chastise me when I take 3 seconds longer than you. I happen to enjoy failing miserably at shooting fast.

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Just for the sake of argument (do we do that here?), when would there be a competitive advantage to staging ammo legally brought to the firing line by the shooter? Say, joe shooter has a 6 rd shotgun shell holder and the stage calls for 6 shotgun knockdowns. He feels comfortable bring extras up with him in a pocket and safely placing them on a prop, just in case. Is there a scenario, maybe like this, where this would present an advantage over other shooters?

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I already asked him to do that... Haven't seen even a rough draft yet.

 

:lol:

 

What's that say'n--"All hat, and no cattle"..........:lol::rolleyes:

OLG

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10 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Just for the sake of argument (do we do that here?), when would there be a competitive advantage to staging ammo legally brought to the firing line by the shooter? Say, joe shooter has a 6 rd shotgun shell holder and the stage calls for 6 shotgun knockdowns. He feels comfortable bring extras up with him in a pocket and safely placing them on a prop, just in case. Is there a scenario, maybe like this, where this would present an advantage over other shooters?

I would say it is a "percieved" advantage. Always be someone thats gonna say "Widder couldn't have fired those 6 shells in 3 seconds if he had to draw them from the belt". To which this way he can say he did. Imho, its the same as a belt up around your armpits.

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So, let's get SHB pg 28 amended to be clear. as: ... rounds safely placed onto a prop from their original loading area (after the beep) may be recovered and used. OR just make it legal!    Yes, I know you'd have some idiot come to the line with a pocket full of 25 shells and line them up on the table. But hey, if he needs to use 25 shells, he's not beatin his competition.

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Personally, I can see NO advantage of staging shells vs. having them in your belt.  

 

Your staging table varies in heights.....and a good many of them are not exactly level.   Have you ever

laid a SG shell on a slanted/canted table?

 

On the other hand, the belt allows for a more natural movement of swinging (or pivoting) your arm

in a downward motion and back up to the SG without having to move other parts of your body

to accomplish the task.

In other words, you don't have to 'reach out' to grab the shells on a low table.

Or worry about bumping one and watch it roll off a table top.

 

Just my opinion.

 

But, we ain't talking about any advantages or disadvantages, etc.    We need to find out how the rules can be

interpreted on the OP's inquiry.

 

..........Widder

 

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