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Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L

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So - If a chicken comes into my hotel room, can I kill THAT chicken ? (Ron White)

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18 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I knew better than to get in on this.

No. That doesn't make sense because: In order to stage the ammo it would need to be brought to the line. Why would they waste the ink to put "or staged safely ACCORDING TO STAGE INSTRUCTIONS. The reason it says OR is for the circumstance when a stage calls for staged ammo. It doesn't mean you get to pick. The shells were technically staged and the instructions didn't say to. So technically it illegally acquired. Im usually in the camp of "if you see it, make the call". This situation to me is why I didnt want to get in on the conversation because I wouldn't have called it. He already spent 30 minutes getting the ammo.

 

That wording is because someone could bring the ammo to the line in their hand.  I did that back when I was new and didn't have a shotgun belt. 

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  17 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Furthermore, from p. 28, SHB, "Dropped rounds or rounds safely placed onto a prop from their original loading area may be recovered and used. In any case of recovery of a dropped or safely placed round must be performed carefully as to not create a loss of muzzle control."

 

I say the ammo was carried to the line legally and safely placed onto a prop.

Original loading area = coat pocket = legally carried to the line and legal for reuse.

Coat placed on the prop = safely placed onto a prop = legal for reuse.

Unless muzzle control was not maintained = no call.

 

This portion of the rule applied only "on the clock". IMO

If a shooter bring ammo to the line legally, he/she cannot stage it anywhere they choose prior to the stage beginning

Once on the clock the shooter may stage ammo anywhere they choose and then recover it safely without penalty.

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1 hour ago, Blast Masterson said:

A belt too high gives the shooter an advantage. That is not the same as gracefully trying to recover from a train wreck, when there no advantage to do so.

Ooookay... Rather than get into a wonderful Wire pissing match, let me add more info to my hypothetical analogy:

 

1. Shooter had just returned from going potty and forgot to readjust their SG belt

2. It was cocked at a slight angle that put some of the rounds completely above the bellybutton by .2657".

 

Better?

 

Gotta love the Wire...

 

Phantom

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14 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

A pocket IS an approved manner and page 28 says nothing about per stage inst.

I'd have to wonder why pwb quoted this and put a section in blue. Then I'd have to ask myself why he would underline part of it.

Screenshot_20190204-115840_Chrome.jpg

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IDK, maybe now at pg 4, he needs to weigh in on what the call actually should be. Page 3 for the SHB is addressing Ammunition belt and Loops and states that a pocket may be used to carry ammunition to the line... THEN shooter (pg 28) "safely placed onto prop from their original loading area" (the pocket) and "may be recovered and used." Simple, right?

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19 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:
  17 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Furthermore, from p. 28, SHB, "Dropped rounds or rounds safely placed onto a prop from their original loading area may be recovered and used. In any case of recovery of a dropped or safely placed round must be performed carefully as to not create a loss of muzzle control."

 

I say the ammo was carried to the line legally and safely placed onto a prop.

Original loading area = coat pocket = legally carried to the line and legal for reuse.

Coat placed on the prop = safely placed onto a prop = legal for reuse.

Unless muzzle control was not maintained = no call.

 

This portion of the rule applied only "on the clock". IMO

If a shooter bring ammo to the line legally, he/she cannot stage it anywhere they choose prior to the stage beginning

Once on the clock the shooter may stage ammo anywhere they choose and then recover it safely without penalty.

Please quote your source.

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6 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Before the buzzer is "staged". After the buzzer, the ammo is just on the way to the firearm albeit a long and circuitous route with a pause in there somewhere.

10 second bonus for jumping jacks?

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17 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

You mean Jumping JACK...right? After one, we'd need a little help. lol

Yes, thanks for the correction :lol:

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Earlier (as this hit page 4), I had started writing a reply to explain which rules actually applied to the OP (FWIW, the "dropped round" section does NOT, as it was written to allow a shooter to stage ammo during the stage engagement in event that (for example) SG rounds were pulled "from their original loading area" at the wrong time (e.g. another firearm was to be shot next instead).

 

...then we experienced a power surge (first snowfall early this AM)...and my reply disappeared somewhere within the "innernet".
I decided to bring in more firewood to keep the stove stoked.

 

UPDATE:

With only one other member of the ROC responding (so far), a consensus has not been reached.

 

A few considerations in the meantime:

As this is an extremely rare situation (as in how often is it likely to EVER reoccur?) the choices come down to either:
1) Apply the "
Use of illegally acquired ammunition" penalties (which would generate howls of indignation regarding being an unfair "hard@$$" position for not allowing a liberal interpretation of the rules regarding bringing ammo to the stage...besides, everyone KNOWS that the rules don't apply at "monthly/club" matches, especially when the shooter is just there to "have fun" and probably doesn't give a rodent's tail what his time/score is in the first place.
OR

2) "NO CALL" the scenario, while ignoring the fact that the ammo was NOT "safely staged as required by stage instructions"; regardless of how it was brought to the stage in the first place.

 

If/when the rest of the ROC respond, I will post another update...by then this thread will probably have set a new record for the number of pages (even given the inevitable sidetracking & thread drift).

 

Carry on.

 

 

 

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WHAT IF THE COAT POCKET HAS ORGANIZERS FOR SHELLS? 

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So what everyone is saying, I can come to the line with my ammo legally on some part of my body or clothing, not in my mouth ear, or cleavage and as this shooter did place it anywhere I want, BEFORE THE BUZZER WENT OFF, and use it during the stage. Even though the stage instructions did not say the shooter can stage their ammo.

 

We should dig up all threads about not enforcing the rules at a monthly shoot is doing a dis-service to the shooter and all of the other shooters in their category.

Either we follow the rules or just make crap up as we go.

2 misses and a P

Ike

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Earlier (as this hit page 4), I had started writing a reply to explain which rules actually applied to the OP (FWIW, the "dropped round" section does NOT, as it was written to allow a shooter to stage ammo during the stage engagement in event that (for example) SG rounds were pulled "from their original loading area" at the wrong time (e.g. another firearm was to be shot next instead).

 

...then we experienced a power surge (first snowfall early this AM)...and my reply disappeared somewhere within the "innernet".
I decided to bring in more firewood to keep the stove stoked.

 

UPDATE:

With only one other member of the ROC responding (so far), a consensus has not been reached.

 

A few considerations in the meantime:

As this is an extremely rare situation (as in how often is it likely to EVER reoccur?) the choices come down to either:
1) Apply the "
Use of illegally acquired ammunition" penalties (which would generate howls of indignation regarding being an unfair "hard@$$" position for not allowing a liberal interpretation of the rules regarding bringing ammo to the stage...besides, everyone KNOWS that the rules don't apply at "monthly/club" matches, especially when the shooter is just there to "have fun" and probably doesn't give a rodent's tail what his time/score is in the first place.
OR

2) "NO CALL" the scenario, while ignoring the fact that the ammo was NOT "safely staged as required by stage instructions"; regardless of how it was brought to the stage in the first place.

 

If/when the rest of the ROC respond, I will post another update...by then this thread will probably have set a new record for the number of pages (even given the inevitable sidetracking & thread drift).

 

Carry on.

 

 

 

Thank you PWB. I'll be glad when spring is here.

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I think that given the ammo was legal when brought to line, no safety problems, and definitely no time advantage, shooter would be allowed to retrieve and use the ammo. Falls under the “don’t be a hard*$$ exception”. 

 

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2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So what everyone is saying, I can come to the line with my ammo legally on some part of my body or clothing, not in my mouth ear, or cleavage and as this shooter did place it anywhere I want, BEFORE THE BUZZER WENT OFF, and use it during the stage. Even though the stage instructions did not say the shooter can stage their ammo.

 

We should dig up all threads about not enforcing the rules at a monthly shoot is doing a dis-service to the shooter and all of the other shooters in their category.

Either we follow the rules or just make crap up as we go.

2 misses and a P

Ike

Ya know, sometimes ya need context...

 

Oy...

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Phantom, context has nothing to do with enforcing the rules! My scenario is related to what the shooter did.  Ammo was in a jacket not on the shooters body, and stage instructions did not state ammo could be staged.

Ike

Yes, it does.

 

What if the match is a monthly with two shooters???

 

Ignoring context is a subset of the "Hardass" rule.

 

Phantom

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

First what if there were 50 shooters, doesn't matter.

Not being a hard ass for enforcing the rules. Other wise why have a rule book?

Ike

Yes, it might matter.

 

Question: Do you ever give shooters a warning at monthlies??

 

Phantom

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What does the ROC not like about staging rounds in cleavages? 

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4 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Other wise why have a rule book?

Ike

Well for starters it's doing one heck of a job confusing the masses. I mean it takes several Robert Ray's(grand interpreter of idpa) to make all the interpretations, almalgations, inpersonations, gesticulations and computations to give a solid answer on what's going on.

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27 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

What does the ROC not like about staging rounds in cleavages? 

 

That was a rule long before the formation of the ROC...we had absolutely NOTHING to do with THAT one!!

;)

 

 

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