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Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L

WTC?

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36 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yes, it might matter.

 

Question: Do you ever give shooters a warning at monthlies??

 

Phantom

I'd have told the shooter he could be penalized at another club, state match etc, but under the circumstances cited by the OP, I wouldn't have called it. Sometimes judgement as opposed to strictness is warranted. To me, this is entertainment, not a court of law.

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Abilene,  where is the line when applying or not applying the rules. If its entertainment then why don't we just have safety rules. Then yo can shoot any way you want, no categories, no round limits, your buddy can stand next to you and hand you ammo.

 

Phantom, we give warnings to new shooters. Seasoned shooters,,,,no. They should play by the rules.

 

Ike

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Abilene,  where is the line when applying or not applying the rules. If its entertainment then why don't we just have safety rules. Then yo can shoot any way you want, no categories, no round limits, your buddy can stand next to you and hand you ammo.

 

Phantom, we give warnings to new shooters. Seasoned shooters,,,,no. They should play by the rules.

 

Ike

If one can't balance violations with the context for which they occurred than I think one is violating the "Hardass" clause.

 

Phantom

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For those of you who think this should be a penalty, could the penalty have been avoided by putting the jacket back on first? 

 

 

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Do they balance violations based on context at State, WR, or EOT? No they don't

Ike

You obviously are having trouble understanding context.

 

Context of the original post: cold monthly match probably not well attended.

 

Significantly different than a State, Regional, etc,etc.

 

Phantom

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We should pretend every WTC from now on happened at a major championship match.  The "It's only a monthly" really lowers the signal to noise ratio.  Can we go ahead and just stipulate that nothing will be called at a monthly from now on? 

 

OK fine, nothing outside of safety violations. 

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

We should pretend every WTC from now on happened at a major championship match.  The "It's only a monthly" really lowers the signal to noise ratio.  Can we go ahead and just stipulate that nothing will be called at a monthly from now on? 

 

OK fine, nothing outside of safety violations. 

That's silly. 

 

Perhaps it's a Wire thing...to take everything to extremes. Are we not capable of applying discretion??

 

Geeze...

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24 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

For those of you who think this should be a penalty, could the penalty have been avoided by putting the jacket back on first? 

 

 

No.

  I will reiterate that while the ammo is technically illegal, I am not saying that it should have been called. I wasn't there and don't know their club rules or covenants, or the situation.

 

On a different note. Have yall ever seen those people that go out of their way to hunt things to call? It's like they have fun doing that, while we have fun shooting and playing the GAME. No, I'm not talking about anyone here. It just made me think of them. They'd probably make good IRS agents. I do agree with Phantom that you always have to look at context. Say a cop pulls a guy over that had just left home after having a beer and the guy blows just over the limit. Does it make a difference that he just received a phone call that a loved one was in bad shape at the hospital, and he was on the way to see them? It does to me. I wouldnt arrest them, I'd give them a ride.

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That's known as "selective enforcement".

 

I've personally been on both sides of the street in that regard. 

(non-CAS situations)

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2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

No.

  I will reiterate that while the ammo is technically illegal, I am not saying that it should have been called. I wasn't there and don't know their club rules or covenants, or the situation.

 

On a different note. Have yall ever seen those people that go out of their way to hunt things to call? It's like they have fun doing that, while we have fun shooting and playing the GAME. No, I'm not talking about anyone here. It just made me think of them. They'd probably make good IRS agents. I do agree with Phantom that you always have to look at context. Say a cop pulls a guy over that had just left home after having a beer and the guy blows just over the limit. Does it make a difference that he just received a phone call that a loved one was in bad shape at the hospital, and he was on the way to see them? It does to me. I wouldnt arrest them, I'd give them a ride.

He better tell me that before the test. If Iknow before I'd skip the test altogether and take him to the hospital. Otherwise he's going to jail; sorry no excuse here.

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Not being a hard@$$ at all, just looking at what's in the SHB. Page three says it has to be part of the instructions to stage ammo, page 28 says nothing of the kind and leads you to believe you could legally bring ammo to the line and stage it. If these two parts of the SHB don't jive, then make the changes so they do. On a side note, I don't see how this is a competitive advantage at all; it would be faster to take it from your person. 

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Abilene,  where is the line when applying or not applying the rules. If its entertainment then why don't we just have safety rules. Then yo can shoot any way you want, no categories, no round limits, your buddy can stand next to you and hand you ammo.

 

Phantom, we give warnings to new shooters. Seasoned shooters,,,,no. They should play by the rules.

 

Ike

Really? That's where this is leading? Following that logic, we should revisit and enforce acceptable foot ware. That'll keep 'em coming to the matches.

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further info on this:

 

the jacket was brown

 

no chickens were harmed as they crossed the road

 

The sun came up next morning

 

the super bowl was boring

 

the wind blows in many directions but only God can make a tree

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Applying and enforcing the rules fairly across the board to all shooters is not taking anything to an "extreme". We have discussed this at our clubs. And we all agree. We don't apply the rules at the monthly like they wold be at a competitive match then shooter shows up and draws the " thats not how we do it at our club" excuse. And gets the penalty because they were shooting with an arbitrary application of the actual rules.

 

How many threads have been on this wire about enforcing the rules and tasking the clubs to make sure the SASS rules are always applied.

 

Maybe to make this approach work for all the clubs shooting monthlies ROC could go through and highlight the rules that we can all arbitrarily apply.

 

Ike

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12 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Say a cop pulls a guy over that had just left home after having a beer and the guy blows just over the limit. Does it make a difference that he just received a phone call that a loved one was in bad shape at the hospital, and he was on the way to see them? It does to me. I wouldnt arrest them, I'd give them a ride.

Funny you use that analogy. When I was active duty, a young Lt did just that. In for the night, had a few beers and then his girlfriend had a medical emergency. He took her, got pulled over and a DUI. Messed up his career. DON'T drink and drive. I'm not a b@ll buster, just follow the rules. Call em on my jr girl whenever i's necessary. How else do you learn? When you go out of town, you will be unpleasantly surprised by penalties you get that you wouldn't at your local monthly. But I still see this as a no call.

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Wow.

Just wow.

 

I guess I would wonder if this was an isolated incident or part of a behavior pattern? Prior warnings?

 

If it was a "violation", what was the shooter's demeanor? Apologetic? Argumentative?

 

When I was "on the job";

 

I never was the guy to write people for 1 to 5 MPH over the limit. (I gave em 15 over on the interstate before I'd give em a look)

 

And I let some going even faster than 15 over go.  That's for another time.

 

Yes, speeding is against the law. Yes, it is a safety issue.

 

I wanted to be reasonable under the circumstances.

 

LDD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Since we're applying scenario's that have nothing to do with this, then this is like illegals and sanctuary cities. Yeah they broke the law, and they are here illegally in the US but hey we're not going to enforce the law.  The city officials are just applying their "discretion".

Ike

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18 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

That's known as "selective enforcement".

 

I've personally been on both sides of the street in that regard. 

(non-CAS situations)

Yes sir. Me too although not specifically that situation.

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Since we're applying scenario's that have nothing to do with this, then this is like illegals and sanctuary cities. Yeah they broke the law, and they are here illegally in the US but hey we're not going to enforce the law.  The city officials are just applying their "discretion".

Ike

That's an utterly silly analogy...

 

God help us...

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20 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

He better tell me that before the test. If Iknow before I'd skip the test altogether and take him to the hospital. Otherwise he's going to jail; sorry no excuse here.

Again though, youd have to look at the context. I pull him over for speeding and smell beer. I say have you been drinking? He, being scared more of not being able to see his dying relative than being arrrested says no, because he doesnt know if youre a hardazz or not. When you administer the breathalyzer the rruth comes out. I still give him a ride. Again context is looked at. If he is 3 sheets to the wind its different. (Drunk driver was the reason for one of my dead brothers so it hits home). I'm just saying that the context should be looked at. And, yes that would be all matches big and small. Common sense has to come in to play in whatever we do.

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So I'm shooting EOT and someone in my category on another posse is given a discretionary call by that TO. And that decision effects the outcome of the match. Is that what we are proposing?

Ike

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First we had the Rattlesnake Wrangler rule, now they want to take away our jackets.  Some of you have not been around long enough to get this one.:wacko:

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I stayed completely out of this one on purpose!!  

 

HEY!! PaleWolf!!  I'm betting another three pages if it don't get shut down!!  :lol::lol: :lol::lol:

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23 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Again though, youd have to look at the context. I pull him over for speeding and smell beer. I say have you been drinking? He, being scared more of not being able to see his dying relative than being arrrested says no, because he doesnt know if youre a hardazz or not. When you administer the breathalyzer the rruth comes out. I still give him a ride. Again context is looked at. If he is 3 sheets to the wind its different. (Drunk driver was the reason for one of my dead brothers so it hits home). I'm just saying that the context should be looked at. And, yes that would be all matches big and small. Common sense has to come in to play in whatever we do.

 

I am sorry to hear that you experienced that.

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12 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So I'm shooting EOT and someone in my category on another posse is given a discretionary call by that TO. And that decision effects the outcome of the match. Is that what we are proposing?

Ike

I'm saying life is not black and white. Common sense is needed to get through it. Do they shoot hillbilly category at EOT? Some clubs have that category. I'm sure there are many club level categories I dont know about also. I'm also certain some clubs have rules that are not sass rules. I dont know that club or the shooter or the situation. I do know the OP said it was their cold match or something like that. It may mean they are a bit laxed during that shoot.

As for your question, how do we know this call affected the outcome? 

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We don't but, it would! At EOT 1 miss can drop a top shooter several places. Or an uncalled rules infraction can raise a shooter several positions.

We're talking about SASS rules which this is a violation of, illegally acquired ammunition. Not special categories or unique range rules. Many clubs have rules concerning safety because of their range. They should announce them before the shoot begins.

We have an annual shoot that has a Tom Horn category. And the rules are published before the match and on our website.

Rules, they are either followed or what. Not unlike the shooter coming to the line with his rifle cocked. There were  people on here who said they wouldn't enforce the SDQ.DOn't like the rule, get it changed was the result.

Ike

 

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

No more silly than drunk drivers and only 2 shooters impacting how we enforce the actual rules.

Ike

I have nooooo idea what it is that you're trying to say...

 

Good Lord!

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I was responding to you calling my sanctuary cities analogy "silly".  No more silly than throwing in scenarios that have nothing to do with the actual OP.

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I was responding to you calling my sanctuary cities analogy "silly".  No more silly than throwing in scenarios that have nothing to do with the actual OP.

Trying to explain to you the meaning of "context"...

 

Fascinating...

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30 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

 

Rules, they are either followed or what. Not unlike the shooter coming to the line with his rifle cocked. There were  people on here who said they wouldn't enforce the SDQ.DOn't like the rule, get it changed was the result.

Ike

 

Haven't gotten it changed yet....

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I get that but.........context has nothing to do with applying the rules the same across the board.

I give up... I'm getting muddy and I ain't enjoying it... Besides, circular logic get me dizzy.

 

Have a wonderful evening.

 

Phantom

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I'm going to throw my two cents into the foray as a relatively new shooter.

I view the local matches with a two-fold purpose.

First, as a way for the unindoctrinated interested in shooting Cowboy Action for the fun and enjoyment of the sport. They don't care about being the fastest, having the slickest firearms or having the lowest score of the day. They want to shoot old style Cowboy guns and meet and enjoy the comradery of others. They need to follow the "Rules of the Game" for safety reasons, totally; however, getting a P or a Miss will not necessarily faze them.

The second type of shooter is the one that does care about those facets of the game with the intention of shooting in a Major Match at some time in their stint with SASS.

With the first type of shooter described above, ALL rule violations should be noted to the shooter; however, based on the infraction, some leniency can be used. After all, they are primally there for the enjoyment of the game.

With the second type of shooter, they DO want to be told of any infraction, as they will want to work on correcting them so they don't fall in that Major Match when they get there. 

Local matches typically have the same shooters and everyone gets to know what their intentions are when they arrive to shoot. TO's and Match Directors will typically dole out the correct type of response based on the infraction as it fits the shooter.

This is exactly how I was treated when I first started shooting with the Lake County Pistoleros.

I was corrected on almost every infraction; however, the consequences varied based on the severity of the infraction. I learned from those mistakes and corrected them in subsequent matches and feel I am a better, safer shooter for it. I never felt like I was being harassed, or pushed to the point of leaving the game. Were there times when I got away with an infraction that someone else got penalized for, SURE. But they were a more seasoned shooter who knew that in a Major Match, it could cost them the title.

Again, just my thoughts on the subject this late in the thread.

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