WTC?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I believe that these WTC threads are valuable in many ways.

1. To educate us on the correct call in a grey area.

2. To teach us what is grey and what is not.

3. To advise the ROC that a rule may need written clarification in the SHB.

4. The rule may need to be changed.

 

Okay, I admit I've been beaten on this being a no call. So I see three options.

1. Clarify, in the SHB, that which led to my misunderstanding.

2. Just tell me I was wrong.

3. Decide that there is no good reason for this rule, the shooter's action was neither unsafe, nor did the shooter gain an unfair advantage.

 

Things to think about. What if the shooter had a snap on SG shell slide and the snaps broke. Could the shooter legally place the slide on a prop and use those shells? The shooter's SG shell belt buckle broke and the belt fell off. Could the shooter legally place the belt on a prop and use those shells. The shooter, in this case, placed his coat on a prop and used the shells in the coat pocket.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Coming up.

At least the comments have ben civilized. And a lesson in how we all think a bit different.

I hope ROC approaches this by what the rules say. Not what weather, or the time it added to the stage so it doesn't matter.

Ike

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Wow! Do I get a prize for bringing this to page 8?

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Allie, thats an equipment failure and may be considered for a re-shoot, or all the things we've been saying here.

Ike

[Captain Bill Burt]

When the shooter came to the line with the coat on and the shells in his pocket(s) I think we can all agree the ammo was legal.  Correct?  Did the shooter taking his coat off and draping it over a prop constitute staging the shotgun shells.  If you believe the answer is yes, then there are penalties to apply.  If you believe it's no then he's clean. Someone asked this earlier and I thought it was apt.  What if he had put the coat back on first?

[Blast Masterson]

Allie, thats an equipment failure

 

"That's" = your awarded a P and 1 miss.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

When the shooter came to the line with the coat on and the shells in his pocket(s) I think we can all agree the ammo was legal.  Correct?  Did the shooter taking his coat off and draping it over a prop constitute staging the shotgun shells.  If you believe the answer is yes, then there are penalties to apply.  If you believe it's no then he's clean. Someone asked this earlier and I thought it was apt.  What if he had put the coat back on first?

 

My thoughts only..

If shooter puts his coat back on?? And then uses his ammo??

He's good to go.. 

But...

Nevermind.. We'll get into a argument about he already staged his ammo

when he took his coat off..

 

Rance 

Thinkin Geesh 

[Too Tall Bob]

Hey PW, you want another rootbeer and more popcorn?  This looks like this is going to go for awhile.....

[Captain Bill Burt]

7 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

 

My thoughts only..

If shooter puts his coat back on?? And then uses his ammo??

He's good to go.. 

But...

Nevermind.. We'll get into a argument about he already staged his ammo

when he took his coat off..

 

Rance 

Thinkin Geesh 

I don't think we'll argue.

[Tennessee williams]

3 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

 

My thoughts only..

If shooter puts his coat back on?? And then uses his ammo??

He's good to go.. 

But...

Nevermind.. We'll get into a argument about he already staged his ammo

when he took his coat off..

 

Rance 

Thinkin Geesh 

Lol, yep. When he took the coat,belt,slide, or whatever off before the buzzer and set it down that'd be staging the ammo. On the other hand, after the buzzer goes off and he took off his coat, belt, slide, britches or whatever and placed them he would be good to go to use them. Easy peasy

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Never mind what he DID NOT do. He did bring ammo legally to the line. He staged the coat (ON the firing line). He was safe in retrieving the shells. 

Two parts of the SHB are not in line with whether you can stage ammo or not. (Yes, they are) If you can't stage ammo, fix the book. If it's determined not to be an advantage (it's not), then change the rule.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Lol, yep. When he took the coat,belt,slide, or whatever off before the buzzer and set it down that'd be staging the ammo. On the other hand, after the buzzer goes off and he took off his coat, belt, slide, britches or whatever and placed them he would be good to go to use them. Easy peasy

AFTER THE BEEP!!! There we have it. Put that in the book; no ambiguities. FIXED.

[Captain Bill Burt]

9 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Never mind what he DID NOT do. He did bring ammo legally to the line. He staged the coat (ON the firing line). He was safe in retrieving the shells. 

Two parts of the SHB are not in line with whether you can stage ammo or not. (Yes, they are) If you can't stage ammo, fix the book. If it's determined not to be an advantage (it's not), then change the rule.

I would argue that he did not stage the coat or the shells.  One definition of staged is "planned, organized, or arranged in advance".  Does anyone think this shooter planned that out?

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

The question is what is staged? Who knows if he planned to go get the shells? Another guess on what happened or what could have happened.

He DID place the coat on the firing line. Is that staged? I would say it is. Now, CAN he legally do that?  ???  Hmmmmmmmm

[Tennessee williams]

I'm not opposed to adding verbage in the book, but I honestly dont think anything is wrong with the way the book is written. I think it is more the way some people understand what they are reading.

I just had an epiphany! Who all actually read the book front to back, and who all read the book in pieces and parts? 

[Captain Bill Burt]

1 minute ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

The question is what is staged? Who knows if he planned to go get the shells? Another guess on what happened or what could have happened.

He DID place the coat on the firing line. Is that staged? I would say it is. Now, CAN he legally do that?  ???  Hmmmmmmmm

If stage instructions don't allow for staging shotgun shells and you consider his coat (and the shells) to have been staged, then it's illegally acquired ammo.

[Tennessee williams]

4 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I would argue that he did not stage the coat or the shells.  One definition of staged is "planned, organized, or arranged in advance".  Does anyone think this shooter planned that out?

No, I don't think he planned it out. But, he definitely arranged it in advance. 

[Tyrel Cody]

1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

I'm not opposed to adding verbage in the book, but I honestly dont think anything is wrong with the way the book is written. I think it is more the way some people understand what they are reading.

I just had an epiphany! Who all actually read the book front to back, and who all read the book in pieces and parts? 

 

I've read it both ways; although that was 6-7 years ago.

[Captain Bill Burt]

3 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

No, I don't think he planned it out. But, he definitely arranged it in advance. 

I may be wrong, we'll know when PWB give us the ruling.  But I see what he did with his coat as very different from how you or I would 'stage' a rifle or shotgun.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

I have read all of the manuals through a few times and referred to sections many times. You're right... IF he's not allowed to stage ammo, it's illegally acquired. 

Just the simple "after the buzzer" will make it clear.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

And at 8+ pages, it seems really cut and dried the way it's written now. 

[Tennessee williams]

23 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

 

23 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I may be wrong, we'll know when PWB give us the ruling.  But I see what he did with his coat as very different from how you or I would 'stage' a rifle or shotgun.

I see it different from the way we stage a rifle or shotgun too. But, the shells have to be on your person at the buzzer unless stage instructions say different. Doesn't really matter if you call it staged or placed or strategerized. 

Under the definition of illegal ammo it says any ammo not taken to the line and or staged by the shooter in an approved manner. 

By seeing the words "in an approved manner" tells you that somewhere in the book it will list that approved manner. We find that on page 3 under ammunition. 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Agree completely with what PAGE 3 says, never argued that. It's page 28 that I have an issue with. "safely placed on a prop from their original loading area" and "not carried to the line and/or staged by the shooter in an approved manner". This section says nothing regarding "per stage instructions. If we make the distinction that all this has to happen AFTER the buzzer, then the two sections agree and it has been made clear.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Therein lies your answer.  'Must be carried on the shooter's person'

Easy peezee

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

He was WEARING the coat! And that is mentioned when addressing DROPPED rounds.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

And if it was so "easy peezee", why are we on 8 pages? Hmmm?

[Tennessee williams]

49 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

I've read it both ways; although that was 6-7 years ago.

 

24 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I have read all of the manuals through a few times and referred to sections many times. You're right... IF he's not allowed to stage ammo, it's illegally acquired. 

Just the simple "after the buzzer" will make it clear.

That's good. I would challenge everybody to read it straight through. It makes a lot more sense and you notice the structure of the book. Watch for key phrazes like "in an approved manner" or "in a safe condition". These phrazes indicate that somewhere in the book it is defined. On a side note, it would be good to include that info in the RO classes. (Instructors feel free to use that. It aint patented).

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

"In a safe condition" Yep, made the shotgun safe AND retrieved the shells safely. Check

"In an approved manner" Yep, carried them in a pocket and pockets ARE approved. Check

He's good so far, huh?

The question we're working on here is: Was staging the coat legal ? Was retrieving from the staged coat legal?

???

[Wyatt]

if you turn on your turn signal do you have the legal right to change lanes?

[Tennessee williams]

2 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

"In a safe condition" Yep, made the shotgun safe AND retrieved the shells safely. Check

"In an approved manner" Yep, carried them in a pocket and pockets ARE approved. Check

He's good so far, huh?

The question we're working on here is: Was staging the coat legal ? Was retrieving from the staged coat legal?

???

My goodness. That quote, I wasn't talking about anything in particular. I was saying if you see the words in a safe condition or in an approved when you read the book, it is a red hot fire alarm that tells you to look somewhere else in the book for what defines them. Thats how you know pg 28 doesnt hold all the answer.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

I know it doesn't, it's vague. And "in an approved manner" is NOT defined, as such, in the SHB.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

'Illegally acquired ammunition is any ammunition not carried to the line and/or staged by the shooter in an approved manner'. Unless the stage instructions say otherwise you can't stage ammo.

'Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person, in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, pouch, holster, pocket, or be safely staged as required by stage instructions'. The stage instructions did not say the shooter could stage ammo.

Seems clear to me.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The rules regarding "Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of the stage..." (SHB p.3) apply to the OP scenario.
Once the coat was removed and "staged", the ammo was no longer "on the shooter's person" nor was it "safely staged as required by stage instructions".

The penalties ("P" + the MISS for the round fired) apply.

Assessment of those penalties due to any "special circumstances or conditions" is up to the MD for the match in question.

 

I have already clarified that the section on p.28 does NOT apply in this situation (with examples).

That section was added when the penalty for retrieving dropped ammo was nullified, and is irrelevant to this discussion.

Any additional verbiage needed to further clarify the context and application of the cited statement will be taken under advisement for the next version of the SHB.

 

Additional "what if"s pertaining to the OP would be counterproductive to answering the original question.