Stage design - likes and dislikes

[Yul Lose]

I don’t like stages that the counters and the TO have to have a prolonged debate after each shooter to see if they shot it correctly or not.

I don’t like the Texas Star if there is more than one posse, it takes to long to reset and the next posse has to sit and wait.

I don’t like targets with cutouts like ♣️ or it’s brothers and other targets with cutouts.

 

 

[Deadeye George]

Good stuff so far!

I'm starting to write more and more stages for our new club and one thing I don't like to use is repetitive stages like Pistol - Continuous Nevada Sweep, Rifle  - Continuous Nevada Sweep... and so on where half the stages have the shooter shooting two identical sweeps with the only difference being the gun used.

 

It looks like the majority so far tend to like those types of stages though while I would prefer stages requiring a little more thought similar to....... Pistol - 4 target Progressive sweep, Rifle - 4 target square setup with a 2 - 3 - 2 - 3 clockwise sequence starting wherever you like.

 

Will I be running shooters off with such stages or attracting them?

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

5 minutes ago, Deadeye George said:

Good stuff so far!

I'm starting to write more and more stages for our new club and one thing I don't like to use is repetitive stages like Pistol - Continuous Nevada Sweep, Rifle  - Continuous Nevada Sweep... and so on where half the stages have the shooter shooting two identical sweeps with the only difference being the gun used.

 

It looks like the majority so far tend to like those types of stages though while I would prefer stages requiring a little more thought similar to....... Pistol - 4 target Progressive sweep, Rifle - 4 target square setup with a 2 - 3 - 2 - 3 clockwise sequence starting wherever you like.

 

Will I be running shooters off with such stages or attracting them?

Best advice I can give you is, ask YOUR shooters what they like. Their opinion is what matters on their range, not ours. The shooters around here seem to very much prefer that the rifle and pistol sequences match or if they don’t, that at least one of them is very simple. 

[Crazy Knife Al]

At our club, shooters volunteer to write stages for the shoot.  I can't see anything listed here that we have not tried, good and bad.  It really depends on who is writing as to what is offered.  Me personally,  I do not like pistol target too far out and don't care on the rifle.  I do hate the Texas star since I am not that accurate with the pistol,  but some do but as stated,  it takes awhile to set up each time.  One of my pet peeves is someone writing a stage with a Named Sweep and not listing the target sequence also.  I do not want to memorize each sweep,  just tell me what to do.

[Ripsaw]

I like the stages that give the shooter options--where to start, what gun to shoot first and how to complete the shooting sequence. I carefully watch the best competitors and try to glean why they shot the stage the way they did. I learn a lot from the best competitors that way.  

[Shooting Bull]

Absolutely breaks my heart that we don't see the Texas Star anymore.  But I understand the time it takes to reset being a huge negative.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

7 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

I do not like targets with cut outs or funny shapes or missing pieces. Such as our SASS cowboy or card suits.

 

So says the man named Ace of Hearts?

[El Hombre]

Dislikes - stages with P traps

.               - 

[Matthew Duncan]

Like!

 

Texas stars

swingers

clay thowers

flying cans of soda

rifle targets that you need to use your sites.  Can't "ding" them with end of my '66

shooting snakes out of a circle

[Yul Lose]

2 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Best advice I can give you is, ask YOUR shooters what they like. Their opinion is what matters on their range, not ours. The shooters around here seem to very much prefer that the rifle and pistol sequences match or if they don’t, that at least one of them is very simple. 

I wish more MD’s would ask their shooters what they like in a match. I think in the 11-12 years that I’ve been involved one MD has asked my opinion which I offered and he immediately rejected every recommendation that I had, not you Smokestack.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

A well written stage should make clear the expectations of the stage writer.

 

The stage should generally have straightforward sequences that allow for speed without feeling overly simplistic.

 

Stages/ matches should strive to balance between difficulty of sequence vs movements vs number of shotgun.

In other words - if you add a difficulty/ challenge in; you have to simplify somewhere else within the same stage.

 

Movements should be of reasonable distance that feels like you have moved without the movement feeling like the dominant feature of the stage.

 

Variations in equipment/ propellant/ shooting styles must be considered for staging/ restaging and expected activities.

 

Direction of movements and sweeps should be balanced stage to stage or stages written with shooters choice options.

 

All props/ manipulations must be universal skills that anyone capable of safely handling a firearm could reasonably be expected to do.

 

Home field advantage/ specialized targets/ specialized props are to be avoided as it creates unfair competitions and hurt feelings.

 

Stages/ match directors should encourage shooters to seek out methods to perform at their best.

If there is no competitive or safety down side to allowing an activity; allow it.

 

Posses should be assembled with an eye toward sufficient worker bees/ brass pickers/ qualified timer operators to avoid burnout.

 

Stages should flow and make sense regarding movements/ firearm sequence/ activities. 

Meaningless or nonsensical stage components do not add to the experience; they simply frustrate your shooters.

 

Vary your stages regarding starting gun/ position/ target arrays.  No one wants to shoot the same stage multiple times on three different bays.

 

10 - 10 - 4 is not a sin.

It is not a sin to do something different either. 

But if you ADD something; ie more shotgun or a reload, then you have to simplify somewhere else.  If you take something out of a stage; ie. Single pistol or no shotgun, something must be added in.  And whatever you add in or take out; you must consider whether it is more fun than the component you are substituting.

 

Steel is heavy; if you want 20 pieces per stage, always consider who going to help YOU put it away after the match.

 

Lastly; everyone is free with their advice and suggestions...

But usually matches are written and steel is set by a small group of volunteers (that work incredibly hard, so many more can stand back and criticize). 

Just remember;

If it sounds like fun; try it.

If it sounds like work; don't do it.

 

And NEVER set a match that you wouldn't be excited to shoot.

[oak creek martin]

I like

vertical sweeps

shotgun start and then a shotgun finish

starting were you want

a occasional rifle or pistol reload 

Popper targets

Texas stars 

staggered heights on targets

 close then farther staggered rifle targets

anchor sweeps

challenging bonus target 

and they every famous Led Zeppelin sweep ( just like a Lawrence Welch just louder ) 

 

[Big Rock, SASS #44055]

I don’t like shooting through windows which were built for members of the lollipop guild.  

 

 I don’t like rifle targets that are at pistol distances and I don’t like pistol targets that are so close I have to pull the lead out of my face with a knife  because they’re so close all the splatter comes straight back.

 

 I’m tired of 2-3-3-2 sweeps.

 

i like card suit targets, when shot in a continuous Nevada sweep, starting on the suit drawn from a full deck of cards and shooters choice on going right or left.

 

 I like split shot gun targets not all four or six side-by-side all of the time.

 

 I like targets set at varying distances not always in a straight line.

[El diablo gringo]

Well, I’ll shoot whatever you throw at me.  I have been paying close attention to many of you that write stages as I have written 3 for the N.J. BP State Championship being held on may 19th.  It will be a learning experience for me. 

 

Gringo

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

50 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

A well written stage should make clear the expectations of the stage writer.

 

The stage should generally have straightforward sequences that allow for speed without feeling overly simplistic.

 

Stages/ matches should strive to balance between difficulty of sequence vs movements vs number of shotgun.

In other words - if you add a difficulty/ challenge in; you have to simplify somewhere else within the same stage.

 

Movements should be of reasonable distance that feels like you have moved without the movement feeling like the dominant feature of the stage.

 

Variations in equipment/ propellant/ shooting styles must be considered for staging/ restaging and expected activities.

 

Direction of movements and sweeps should be balanced stage to stage or stages written with shooters choice options.

 

All props/ manipulations must be universal skills that anyone capable of safely handling a firearm could reasonably be expected to do.

 

Home field advantage/ specialized targets/ specialized props are to be avoided as it creates unfair competitions and hurt feelings.

 

Stages/ match directors should encourage shooters to seek out methods to perform at their best.

If there is no competitive or safety down side to allowing an activity; allow it.

 

Posses should be assembled with an eye toward sufficient worker bees/ brass pickers/ qualified timer operators to avoid burnout.

 

Stages should flow and make sense regarding movements/ firearm sequence/ activities. 

Meaningless or nonsensical stage components do not add to the experience; they simply frustrate your shooters.

 

Vary your stages regarding starting gun/ position/ target arrays.  No one wants to shoot the same stage multiple times on three different bays.

 

10 - 10 - 4 is not a sin.

It is not a sin to do something different either. 

But if you ADD something; ie more shotgun or a reload, then you have to simplify somewhere else.  If you take something out of a stage; ie. Single pistol or no shotgun, something must be added in.  And whatever you add in or take out; you must consider whether it is more fun than the component you are substituting.

 

Steel is heavy; if you want 20 pieces per stage, always consider who going to help YOU put it away after the match.

 

Lastly; everyone is free with their advice and suggestions...

But usually matches are written and steel is set by a small group of volunteers (that work incredibly hard, so many more can stand back and criticize). 

Just remember;

If it sounds like fun; try it.

If it sounds like work; don't do it.

 

And NEVER set a match that you wouldn't be excited to shoot.

I’ve really got to get out there and shoot one of your matches sometime. We have nearly identical philosophies in stage writing. I would imagine I would really enjoy your matches. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

I wish more MD’s would ask their shooters what they like in a match. I think in the 11-12 years that I’ve been involved one MD has asked my opinion which I offered and he immediately rejected every recommendation that I had, not you Smokestack.

When I first started writing matches, I put comment sheets at the unloading tables. I was told that I was crazy for doing that and would regret it. Well, I didn’t regret it because I learned a LOT that way about what people did and didn’t enjoy doing. It helped me get a pretty good handle on what I should be doing. 

[War Grizzly]

1. I like moving with the shotgun especially if it's movement downrange. 

2. I like the same sweep r&p

3. I like the option of taking the empty rifle or shotgun to the next position.

4. I like shooters choice in firearm order, and or position.

5. Never seen it but I think I would go for the bonus pistol on rifle targets.

[Kirk James]

I like stages that are preparing me for the state, national and world shoots.  Last thing I want to do is shoot at stages with targets at a distance before Bordertown or EOT.   On the other hand I want a variety of distances and target heights before Winter Range.  Fortunately there are clubs in AZ that pay attention and prepare us for the up coming events.

[Warden Callaway]

9 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Steel is heavy; if you want 20 pieces per stage, always consider who going to help YOU put it away after the match.

 

Yes!  The old 90/10 rule.  90% of the work is done by 10% of the people.   

 

I take it as it comes but moan when faced with convoluted sweeps and especially split pistol mostly because I shoot gunfighter and it just makes it more of a mental challenge or I resort to shooting double dullest. 

 

When our club was moved, we lost the targets that were used at the old range.  Someone found some targets donated by another range. They were mostly shapes of cards, coffee pots, skillets,  Evil Roy,  buffalo, coffins, etc.  We have retired all the smaller shaped targets and added large rectangular targets.  We still use some of the big buffalo targets Eval Roy.   An odd shape target is handy with some sweeps like the anchor sweep. 

 

Into my 5th year and I've only shot two stages that required a rifle reload on the clock.  I'd never practiced doing a reload and was shooting the new to me Winchester 73.  I just watched how others did it and picked a way that made sense and I did fine.

[Cowboy Junky]

I try not to write "stages" as much as I try to write a match. That way you have fast sweeps, slower sweeps, some targets where you have to really aim and some that you run hard and with less precision. That way the match is balanced and fun for everyone. 

 

That let's everyone work on their strengths and weaknesses but without too much frustration or boredom. 

 

The biggest mistake you can make IMO is compiling multiple stages that are difficult. I honestly don't think that makes you a better shooter or even makes it more fun it just slows everything down and is more intense for all shooters and less fun for the other 15 people working/watching. It can also compound over time and turn into a tough match where each stage individually wasn't bad but as a match it drained you in the end. The end result was people didn't have as much fun at the end of the day. Variation is the key IMO. 

 

We have seen from the past the clubs that put the targets out really far and made the shooting challenging to the point you had to slow way down lost membership.....none grew. It sounds good until you have to do it and then it's not maybe as good as you thought it would be. Most people don't want to shoot 16X16 targets at 25 yards with the rifle and 12 yards with the pistols in one stage let alone 6 IMHO that would turn your club into a ghost town.........lol

 

There is another cowboy sport that does use slower paced stages, far targets and bone stock guns. I don't mean this in a bad way ( I promise) but most of the shooter's doing that have the same "make it more challenging" theme that some of the SASS shooter's talk about.  The results are they have very low turnouts. 

 

IMHO make it fast, slow, far and easy all in the same match and spice it up with some tricks to make it fun for everyone. Honestly I don't have a great answer for SG targets. I try to use poppers, birds, far & close right together, far apart and even erratic at times but there is only so much you can do with 2 - 6 shotgun targets in a stage that hasn't been done. 

 

I do try to listen to the shooter's because it tells you a lot. When they smile, laugh, get angry complain to others, thank you for the "good" stages or complain about the hard ones. I'll always listen to constructive criticism but I'll also try to cater to the majority......it's never easy.........lol

[Shooting Bull]

11 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I’ve really got to get out there and shoot one of your matches sometime. We have nearly identical philosophies in stage writing. I would imagine I would really enjoy your matches. 

 

 

You really should come join us sometime.  But be forewarned, you're forbidden from shooting Duelist.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

12 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

A well written stage should make clear the expectations of the stage writer.

 

The stage should generally have straightforward sequences that allow for speed without feeling overly simplistic.

 

Stages/ matches should strive to balance between difficulty of sequence vs movements vs number of shotgun.

In other words - if you add a difficulty/ challenge in; you have to simplify somewhere else within the same stage.

 

Movements should be of reasonable distance that feels like you have moved without the movement feeling like the dominant feature of the stage.

 

Variations in equipment/ propellant/ shooting styles must be considered for staging/ restaging and expected activities.

 

Direction of movements and sweeps should be balanced stage to stage or stages written with shooters choice options.

 

All props/ manipulations must be universal skills that anyone capable of safely handling a firearm could reasonably be expected to do.

 

Home field advantage/ specialized targets/ specialized props are to be avoided as it creates unfair competitions and hurt feelings.

 

Stages/ match directors should encourage shooters to seek out methods to perform at their best.

If there is no competitive or safety down side to allowing an activity; allow it.

 

Posses should be assembled with an eye toward sufficient worker bees/ brass pickers/ qualified timer operators to avoid burnout.

 

Stages should flow and make sense regarding movements/ firearm sequence/ activities. 

Meaningless or nonsensical stage components do not add to the experience; they simply frustrate your shooters.

 

Vary your stages regarding starting gun/ position/ target arrays.  No one wants to shoot the same stage multiple times on three different bays.

 

10 - 10 - 4 is not a sin.

It is not a sin to do something different either. 

But if you ADD something; ie more shotgun or a reload, then you have to simplify somewhere else.  If you take something out of a stage; ie. Single pistol or no shotgun, something must be added in.  And whatever you add in or take out; you must consider whether it is more fun than the component you are substituting.

 

Steel is heavy; if you want 20 pieces per stage, always consider who going to help YOU put it away after the match.

 

Lastly; everyone is free with their advice and suggestions...

But usually matches are written and steel is set by a small group of volunteers (that work incredibly hard, so many more can stand back and criticize). 

Just remember;

If it sounds like fun; try it.

If it sounds like work; don't do it.

 

And NEVER set a match that you wouldn't be excited to shoot.

You constantly save me so much writing/typing time. Thank you.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

16 hours ago, Deadeye George said:

Good stuff so far!

I'm starting to write more and more stages for our new club and one thing I don't like to use is repetitive stages like Pistol - Continuous Nevada Sweep, Rifle  - Continuous Nevada Sweep... and so on where half the stages have the shooter shooting two identical sweeps with the only difference being the gun used.

 

It looks like the majority so far tend to like those types of stages though while I would prefer stages requiring a little more thought similar to....... Pistol - 4 target Progressive sweep, Rifle - 4 target square setup with a 2 - 3 - 2 - 3 clockwise sequence starting wherever you like.

 

Will I be running shooters off with such stages or attracting them?

Stage design philosophies that work for others will work for you. My advice would be to take a look at the philosophies of the match directors/stage writers who are being successful. Some of those have commented on this very thread. I'd PM them and ask if it would be possible to have phone conversations with them. Good stage writing is deeper than what most are able to pick up with casual observation.  

[Bad Bascomb, SASS # 47,494]

 

32 minutes ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said:

  Good stage writing is deeper than what most are able to pick up with casual observation.  

 

AMEN!  Good stage writers are NOT born , they EVOLVE through a process of hard work and experience.  Hopefully the club gets to have fun along the way.

[McCandless]

Don't just name a sweep when reading the stage instructions, describe it!

I remember going to one of my first matches out in California, when they said "on the rifle targets, do an Oklahoma Sweep"  To which I said "huh??" 

I was answered by some with a condescending, (even disdainful) attitude, because I didn't know a "simple thing" like that.

(the posse marshal was very kind, and realizing I was a new shooter, described the shooting order for me.)

(I don't even remember what their Oklahoma Sweep was... I've since heard it described different ways.  What's known in your region might be different in another, using the same name)

Even on this thread, several have talked about an "Anchor Sweep", which many readers will scratch their heads over.

Don't use jargon unless you define it.

 

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

I like a good mix of stages with a majority of down range movement. A “stand and deliver” along with a couple of stages with lateral movement fit into the mix. 

I like an occasional split pistol or pistols from two locations. 

Shotgun from multiple locations is good to fit into the mix. 

I like a mix of big and close and also targets that require the use of the front sight, but not necessarily bullseye shooting. 

I like the occasional stage that has  rifle and pistol sweeps different, but complimentary. 

stages should allow shooters options to utilize their own strengths. 

I don’t mind a head scratcher sweep, but the rest of the stage should be straight forward. 

If the transitions or movements are more complicated, then the target engagement should be straight forward. 

[Ramblin Gambler]

19 hours ago, Deadeye George said:

Good stuff so far!

I'm starting to write more and more stages for our new club and one thing I don't like to use is repetitive stages like Pistol - Continuous Nevada Sweep, Rifle  - Continuous Nevada Sweep... and so on where half the stages have the shooter shooting two identical sweeps with the only difference being the gun used.

 

It looks like the majority so far tend to like those types of stages though while I would prefer stages requiring a little more thought similar to....... Pistol - 4 target Progressive sweep, Rifle - 4 target square setup with a 2 - 3 - 2 - 3 clockwise sequence starting wherever you like.

 

Will I be running shooters off with such stages or attracting them?

 

Somebody posted a stage writing tutorial once.  It suggested limiting the complicated things like having different rifle/pistol sweeps.  1 or 2 per match and people will be fine with it.  Do it for 6 stages every month and people will not have as much fun.  

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

2 hours ago, McCandless said:

Don't just name a sweep when reading the stage instructions, describe it!

I remember going to one of my first matches out in California, when they said "on the rifle targets, do an Oklahoma Sweep"  To which I said "huh??" 

I was answered by some with a condescending, (even disdainful) attitude, because I didn't know a "simple thing" like that.

(the posse marshal was very kind, and realizing I was a new shooter, described the shooting order for me.)

(I don't even remember what their Oklahoma Sweep was... I've since heard it described different ways.  What's known in your region might be different in another, using the same name)

Even on this thread, several have talked about an "Anchor Sweep", which many readers will scratch their heads over.

Don't use jargon unless you define it.

 

I agree. It does make me think of something funny though that gets used in Georgia. I was at a match there listening to the stage instructions being read. When the reader got to the section for the shotgun he said, "And shoot the shotgun targets in a Pig Iron Sweep." I asked, "What's a Pig Iron Sweep?" He said, "Any order. It doesn't matter if there's a shotgun target order, Pig Iron ends up shooting as if the instructions said any order, so we call any order a Pig Iron Sweep." Since then if I shoot targets out of order and earn a P, I call it a Buck Sweep. 

[chestnut louie]

I like bonus targets once and a while

 

I occasionally want tiny targets a long way away.

 

I like knock down plates

 

I like odd ball shotgun target setups

 

I like “Retro” shoots

 

I like most of what Grizzly Dave says

 

Sometimes I like close, simple and fast (especially the first stage)

 

I am fortunate to live in mid Maryland so I can shoot: Damascus, Thurmont, Jefferson Rifle Club in Hanover, PA,  CASS in WV – sometimes further.   

 

I like variety!

 

 Quoting Snakebite “I don't care for the Goofy sweeps that somebody has come with to try and stump the shooter and require a road map to decipher.”

 

What is a "p" trap?

 

Shooting Safe and Having Fun

Chestnut Louie

[Griff]

I like the Texas Star, plate racks and the big oxygen or acetylene bottles that sound different notes.  big or small, near or far, high or low, swingers or no hit hostages... rifles that are shot last, if your steel is good!  Movement is good!  I like shootin' first, last or somewhere in-between,,, BUT, when I'm ready!  New shooters, old shooters, young shooters and those in-between who have a smile at the end of the stage!  

 

I also like spotters that can & will spot, TOs that can tell where my next shot should go, ('cause I might check)!  Any brass picker that gets more'n 8 of my 10 rifle brass!  Any scorekeeper, tho' pretty ones are easier to hear the bad news from...  but are distracting when I'm the timer...  LTOs... any Posse member that doesn't HAVE to be asked to relieve someone!

 

I like clubs that give directions to their range, post safety meeting times...  big parking lots!  

 

I dislike the opposite of the above!   Mostly... and i'll tolerate a little bit of that!

[Shooting Bull]

2 minutes ago, Griff said:

 TOs that can tell where my next shot should go, ('cause I might check)! 

 

 

Huh?

[Griff]

1 minute ago, Shooting Bull said:

Huh?

I've been known to stop mid-string, tell the TO a joke... or just stop to catch a breath, then ask the TO, ,,,"what's next?"  Sometime's just make sure they're payin' attention... sometimes 'cause I'm NOT!  

 

[Matthew Duncan]

Don't like?

 

Web sites that:

 

1.  Have the wrong address.  Drove 2 1/2 hours to attend a match, nothing there. Got lucky when I guessed south and rode another 10 miles to finally found the match.

 

2.  No address and/or minimal directions that assumed you know the area.

[Shooting Bull]

22 hours ago, Griff said:

I've been known to stop mid-string, tell the TO a joke... or just stop to catch a breath, then ask the TO, ,,,"what's next?"  Sometime's just make sure they're payin' attention... sometimes 'cause I'm NOT!  

 

 

I soooooooo want to be on a posse with you someday. Just don’t want to run the timer for you. 

[Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life]

Rifle reloads are OK, but pistol reloads aren't.

Some simple sweeps, some more difficult or unusual, but spelled out in instructions.

I was told early on that rifle and pistol should have the same shooting order (maybe so those of us with half-heimezers, [only forget half of things, not all])  It can be really confusing to shoot the rifle one way and the pistols a different way.

Knockdown targets MUST go down for the average shooter that actually hits the target. (One range had killer rabbit shotgun targets so we always brought really hot loads to take down those rabbits.)

Love flyers, pop-ups, swingers, running targets.

Some complicated (requiring more thought) and some easy (not requiring a lot of thought).

Stages that take approximately the same amount of time for each posse so posses don't end up having to wait at each stage for the previous posse to finish.

Having enough TOs so that only one or two people don't get overworked.  Everyone should have some time to rest, and get a drink, go to the restroom, etc.

Short stage lines, not a paragraph long.  For those of us with half-heimezers, I type up the stage lines, laminate them, and staple at the starting position (positions if there is an option).