Leadnose Calhoun Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Well, 2018 season has started. After looking at the new handbook, I was disheartened to see that there is still no definite consensus for disabled shooters. There should be some kind of procedure to follow. Allowing each club do use their own judgement is not acceptable. It should be the same at ALL EVENTS. Please do not tell me you can't imagine being banned from competing due to a disability. It DOES happen and it HAS happened. All it will take is one shooter who is very upset. You will then have the A.D.A. on your neck. If individual club policies were observed, that club will be thrown under the bus. ALL shooting venues would be stopped until compliance with their codes was done. I think a preemptive course would be a lot wiser than a wait-and-see one. There are a LOT of handicapped shooters out there that need wheelchairs or scooters. We Boomer generation folk are wearing out. I found the following link that would at least give a starting point. http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/rules_images/NRA Adaptive Shooting Positions.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Shoer 27979 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Since every range is different I don't think you can set a standard. Most clubs do everything they can to accommodate handicapped shooter plus I do not think most clubs could comply with ada without going broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Lizard Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I get nothing special...If I can not get up the stairs, I shoot threw the doors..If no doors I shoot from the side of the building...The only problem is they keep throwing rocks in my way...The other problem is a slow timer...Might run him over... Texas Lizard I try to do it just the same as everyone else does..Thats me...I'm in the bottom 1% of the finals...And I don't care...I'm having fun...Lots of fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Pretty wide brush there-------No way to ever set any across-the-board standard with all the ranges in use. There is civil/legal 'liability' to the club and landlord because firearms are in use. What I will tell you, that every SASS event I have ever attended. The folks did everything possible to help folks out. I will also say I have seen folks that were not allowed to shoot because their disability made them unsafe to handle any loaded firearm. Just the way it is...... OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MizPete Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 What they all said. Common sense and compassion need to apply. The hold-harmless agreement I had my new shooters sign read "I'm playing a gun game. Whatever happens to me is probably my own damn fault." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null N. Void Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I don't know any Match Director that won't go out of his/her way to make sure someone with a disability can shoot all the stages. I, as a MD, don't need the government to tell me how to make sure a shooter who has any disability can shoot. This is a fun game, and I'll do anything I can to make sure any disabled shooter can enjoy the game so long as they are safe and the people around them are safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Friend, SASS #53635 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 The A.D.A. Is not an entity that can get on your neck. The Americans with Disabilities Act is essentially commercial building code that defines and mandates accessibility for new commercial construction. It is not retroactive to existing structures unless other modifications are being made and there is no provision in it that I have ever seen for outdoor shooting ranges. Rest assured, the A.D.A. can’t come get you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlow4697 Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 In twenty one years of SASS shooting ,I have had the pleasure of shooting with shooters who are confined to using wheel chairs and every club has done their best to see that the shooter was accommodated to best of their abilities. The Cowboy Way. Most of the chair bound shooters are very independent , you need to ask what help they will accept don't just assume they want to be pushed around .Maybe stage long guns for them. Every range is different . Leave things alone we have enough rules already. just my two cents worth thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 I am legally disabled and shoot just like everyone else, except for being a tad slower!!! :-) I plan to continue to shoot matches just like everyone else with no special provisions. The only advantage I exercise is Disabled Parking!!! :-) Luckily, I don't need a wheelchair but if I did every MD I know would let me use it. SASS is a friendly sport and I don't envision any disabled person being treated badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Null N. Void said: I don't know any Match Director that won't go out of his/her way to make sure someone with a disability can shoot all the stages. I, as a MD, don't need the government to tell me how to make sure a shooter who has any disability can shoot. This is a fun game, and I'll do anything I can to make sure any disabled shooter can enjoy the game so long as they are safe and the people around them are safe. I wish that were true everywhere; but, I know it was not always the case. Thankfully, that MD quit shooting SASS in a snit over 10 years ago. It really warmed my heart to see how the folks at the Chorro Valley Regulators helped a shooter to continue shooting as long as possible. The shooter was allowed to decide when he was no longer safe. you MDJ and CVR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 PS Sorry I got OT. This has come up before. It is very difficult to determine what is safe and do-able for so many different disabilities with our different venues (terrain, state laws...) and club budgets. Very few cowboy clubs have deep pockets nor do the Ranges. That is the problem in mandating a disabled shooters rule that can apply to every club. For example, if finances were not limited, every club would put in cement sidewalks to get people in wheel chairs from stage to stage. Today, to my knowledge, at least, most clubs attempt to accommodate most disabled shooters to the best of their abilities and finances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Church Key, SASS # 33713 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 I've shot with disabled shooters and all the clubs have successfully accommodated them. I have never, in my 17 years of CASS, seen anyone banned from shooting except several folks who were obviously unable to do so, because they were stoned on RX drugs and told to not shoot by MD's at the match. In my opinion, the folks running CAS matches are capable of accommodating disabilities without guidance from above. I believe the OP is just not in touch with the real world of CAS. That said, many ranges are not wheelchair friendly as they are basically cow pastures. CASS WV shoots on the side of Cacapon mountain. It's difficult terrain for everyone. Wheelchair participants should have assistance from their friends to help them get around. Sometimes, circumstances are not accommodating to all participants. That said, OP - please state a specific example of your statement: "Please do not tell me you can't imagine being banned from competing due to a disability. It DOES happen and it HAS happened." We can then debate the situation. Church Key Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 PPS About your link. I believe most current MDs are not that strict in confining people in wheel chairs to such pre-designated positions. I believe that if you can hold and shoot the guns safely, you are "good to go." PPPS If you still feel disabled shooters are not being given a chance to stay in the game (notice I did not say win), after reading my thoughts. 1. You should complain to HQ about how disabled shooters are being treated and name clubs and circumstances. 2. Develop a set of guidelines that could cover the many differing venues and disabilities. Best wishes for continued happy times shooting! Sincerely, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Pretty wide brush there-------No way to ever set any across-the-board standard with all the ranges in use. OLG Yep, pretty wide brush, especially since most of us are working within the area the host range allows us to set up . While most ranges may have easy access to the range and to the common firing line for target shooting, it's a wide stretch to expecting the IDPA , SASS, Sporting Clays...etc...etc ranges and stages to be totally open for every disability. I do ramps, not stairs....if the gallow has 10 steep steps I stand beside the prop instead, same thing for saddle on a barrel. If the IDPA stage says kneel behind barrel, I ask for a chair. I don't know of a single club that would not do whatever it could accommodate any and all that could safely shoot. I've seen holsters on wheel chairs, and wheel chairs with designated pushers, and designated pusher/rifle shooters. If all of our stages were the exact same with mandatory indoor/outdoor carpet on concrete it would be easy. IMHO when in doubt give the MD a call, that way they can make changes if needed. When I write and set up stages I try to look at it from every angle, and usually go over them on game day with one of the ROs to see if I missed something. I hope you have a great 2018 shooting....Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Catlow4697 said: In twenty one years of SASS shooting ,I have had the pleasure of shooting with shooters who are confined to using wheel chairs and every club has done their best to see that the shooter was accommodated to best of their abilities. The Cowboy Way. Most of the chair bound shooters are very independent , you need to ask what help they will accept don't just assume they want to be pushed around .Maybe stage long guns for them. Every range is different . Leave things alone we have enough rules already. just my two cents worth thanks This by a bunch. Just because someone is bound to a wheel chair does NOT mean they are less than others. Many take great pride in being out there doing what they consider "fun" and you may/will receive a fairly stern look or lecture if you treat them as "handicapped". All that have been in wheelchairs that I have shot with have amazed me with their ability to shoot the scenario to the best of their ability with little to no assistance. Way to go guys and gals!!!! Respectfully Gateway Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 We've had wheelchair bound shooters at our club in the past and we made every accomodation for them so they could shoot. Usually it just involves carrying long guns from the loading tables or moving stuff from stage to stage. I can't think of a stage that I've shot in 13 years that couldn't be adapted to someone in a wheelchair. And we didn't do it because of some ADA law. We did it because they are our friends and we take care of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 I’m not sure where the OP shoots but every single one of the clubs that I shoot with including EOT go out of their way to insure disabled shooters are cared for and assisted. I have not seen one instance where a disabled shooter was denied the ability or opportunity to participate and the clubs have bent over backwards to assist those shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 3 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said: I wish that were true everywhere; but, I know it was not always the case. Thankfully, that MD quit shooting SASS in a snit over 10 years ago. It really warmed my heart to see how the folks at the Chorro Valley Regulators helped a shooter to continue shooting as long as possible. The shooter was allowed to decide when he was no longer safe. you MDJ and CVR! I did shoot as long as I felt comfortable with it. There are a few stages over the years that I would not have been comfortable with at all towards the end of my "career" but I never went anywhere that would not have made an accommodation for me if needed. Nowhere from California to Louisiana anyway. I saw Texas Lizard shoot from his chair once at The Cowboys in Norco, it was great to watch him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 A.D.A is a Federal Civil Rights Act. Not a building code. It's intent is to provide "equal" accommodations for everyone. It does not only apply to new construction. If you allow access by the public to your business, event, restaurant etc. you are required by law to provide accommodations for those who have some aspect of a disability. Hearing, vision, and physical limitations. If any range or event were to deny access, without trying to provide some means of accommodating someone they run the risk of Federal action and or a Civil Suit brought by the person not being accommodated. The short version here is this, SASS, a range, or a club should deny anyone the use of a scooter, a cart, or other means of mobility, aka wheelchair, they are violating the law. Mobility compromised people have sued and won all over this country. Safety is an issue, but to deny anyone the opportunity to participate based on we don't allow scooters, carts, or wheelchairs will get your butts sued. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Friend, SASS #53635 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 You are right Ike, the ADA is not building code but that is essentially how it manifests itself in our daily lives. And there is no blanket rule that every existing business is retroactively required to change the access to their premises to make accommodations for the disabled because in many structures across our nation this would be physically impossible. Many existing businesses in existing locations are grandfathered in. It is only when an existing business pulls a building permit or a new business opens that these changes are triggered. In other words an existing business doesn’t have to change anything unless they change something and then they have to change everything. And all of this is administrated by local building departments, there are no Feds walking around checking businesses for compliance. Of course local municipalities can vary widely in their adherence to and the enforcement of the ADA just like they do with building code. Take it from a guy who has done accessibility for seniors and the disabled for the last ten years, every working day, both commercial and residential, with lots of interaction with many municipalities, while the ADA may be federal law the only practical enforcement of it is on a local level. While you are correct that federal enforcement of the law can be triggered by a complaint more often the ADA manifests itself in our daily lives only through the application for a local building permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keystone, SASS # 47578 Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 The ADA is about access to facilities not participation in all activities at a facility. While a disabled person may have access to a football stadium to watch the Super Bowl, their disability may prevent them from competing in the game. Shooting sports by their nature present a certain hazard and may not be compatible with a particular disability. That doesn't mean people with disabilities may not participate in shooting activities but the individual disability may limit the activities in which they may safely participate. Most cowboys & cowgirls are very accommodating & compassionate people who would go out of their way to assist a person who endeavored to participate in CAS/SASS, but not at the risk of compromised safety to the individual shooter or other participants. The folks I know who have stopped participating in CAS/SASS new when it was time to walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Where did the OP go? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 OLG, I'm not sure. I wish he would come back and reply. It is possible that, after reading the posts, he may have some ideas on how on how to improve things for disabled shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Well-With only 16 posts by the OP in the last 11 yrs, I wouldn't bet on it. The OP was 'on' yesterday, at 4:26 am. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadnose Calhoun Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 I have had my say on this subject and I see which way the stick floats. I will let this topic rest. Wait til you see my next question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 55 minutes ago, Leadnose Calhoun said: I have had my say on this subject and I see which way the stick floats. I will let this topic rest. Wait til you see my next question. Can’t wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Whiskers Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 We have 2 clubs here that have hosted the Montana State Shoot for all but 1 year since 2000. The one has a town built with boardwalks. We saw to it there were ramps getting onto the boardwalks and off again into each stage for disabled shooters. One that's shot with us a lot has a motorized chair and he adapted his "Hemi scooter" to hang his holsters on. The rifle and shotgun are usually staged for him. He's a VERY careful shooter and has fun no matter what his time is. The other club has an all gravel "main street" and the gravel goes all the way into the bays firing lines. He has no problem with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Yul Lose said: Can’t wait. Me either-Wonder if we'll live than long? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 hours ago, Leadnose Calhoun said: I have had my say on this subject and I see which way the stick floats. I will let this topic rest. Wait til you see my next question. Looking at your SASS number I see you’ve been at this a LOT longer than I. That tells me you’ve seen a LOT more in this sport than I. From my limited view your original question is asking for a solution for a non existant problem. I sure wish you’d participate in this thread more to help me see what I’m missing. If this truly is a problem it needs to be fixed. You obviously felt strongly enough about it to start this thread. Won’t you consider sticking around to help see it through? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 4 hours ago, Leadnose Calhoun said: I have had my say on this subject and I see which way the stick floats. I will let this topic rest. Wait til you see my next question. professional pot stirrer me thinks on tip for helping shooters in wheelchairs, put your foot behind the shooter's shoulder wheel to keep it from moving as they shoot, especially shotgun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Lizard Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: on tip for helping shooters in wheelchairs, put your foot behind the shooter's shoulder wheel to keep it from moving as they shoot, especially shotgun I put the brakes on... TL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 On 2/3/2018 at 8:26 PM, Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 said: I did shoot as long as I felt comfortable with it. There are a few stages over the years that I would not have been comfortable with at all towards the end of my "career" but I never went anywhere that would not have made an accommodation for me if needed. Nowhere from California to Louisiana anyway. I saw Texas Lizard shoot from his chair once at The Cowboys in Norco, it was great to watch him. Mad Dog Jack, sorry to hear you aren't shooting anymore. We had some fun times at Defend the Roost. Take Care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty Newt # 7365 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 9 hours ago, Leadnose Calhoun said: I have had my say on this subject and I see which way the stick floats. I will let this topic rest. Wait til you see my next question. I'm on pins and needles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Big Tree Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 20 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: on tip for helping shooters in wheelchairs, put your foot behind the shooter's shoulder wheel to keep it from moving as they shoot, especially shotgun I've seen ya do it and was impressed. We have the pleasure of shooting with some great people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Pete SASS #42168 Posted February 6, 2018 Share Posted February 6, 2018 A couple of years ago at Winter Range there were two seriously handicapped shooters on my posse. We carried and staged their long guns. One of them had to be coached through most of the stages. There were no comments and no problems. Everybody stepped in and did their part. And, we got off all of the stages on time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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