Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 I've loaded two different batches of 38 specials using Trail Boss under 110gr bullets. In total maybe 200 rounds. These were the first rounds using Trail Boss. The loads were so inconsistent that I'm honestly nervous about using any more of this powder. I wasn't using a chronograph, but among the 200 rounds for 4 near-squibs which spat the bullets forward about 20' until they hit the ground. And there were significant variations in sound and felt recoil. These loads were all within published data from Hodgson. I'm an experienced reloader who's put together thousands of 38 rounds, mostly with Bullseye. The primers were all CCI which has been my go-to for years. I'm kinda mystified as the only element which sticks out is the Trail Boss. But I also know that parts have been using it for years with great success. Does anyone have thoughts or a similar experience? Quote
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 Nope, always worked great for me. Wish I had some more of it. 3 Quote
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 What is the powder charge? Trail Boss is not very consistent loaded under the published minimums. Also, it seems to be very susceptible to static in the measure and press. Like Slim, I’ve shot a lot of it and like it. 6 Quote
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 Charlie, you might mention what sort of powder measure you are using. TB has big flakes and was very inconsistent when I tried to load it with a Lee powder measure. Small charges will be more inconsistent than large charges. I was using it in 32-20 which doesn't take much so I ended up just dipping the powder for that load. 1 1 Quote
Charlie Harley, #14153 Posted January 14 Author Posted January 14 I'm loading on a Dillon 550B. I don't know what current rules say about publishing load data, but I was at the bottom quartile of the published range. It was a light load, but still within range. Quote
Prof. Fuller Bullspit Posted January 14 Posted January 14 I found Trail Boss to be temperature sensitive. It is less energetic in the cold. I preferred loads at the upper-mid end of the recommended range. That said, it works well in big cases and I still use it. 2 Quote
Cypress Sun Posted January 14 Posted January 14 1 minute ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said: I'm loading on a Dillon 550B. I don't know what current rules say about publishing load data, but I was at the bottom quartile of the published range. It was a light load, but still within range. Could be a couple of things. - Make sure that the powder funnel/case bell is clean as the powder could be bridging. If it's bridging, you may need to attach a device to vibrate the powder measure to assure uniform drops. - What powder charge bar are you using. Make sure that it's not the Xtra small bar. - Make sure that you have a positive return on the powder bar. The older ones have springs that return the bar for the next charge. The newer ones have a "fail safe" system. If the "fail safe" system is not set up correctly, the bar will sometimes not come back all the way resulting in a low powder charge. - I have to ask, is this the new Trail Boss or the old? If old, has it been stored in a controlled environment? - What temperature have the failures occurred. Quote
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 You might want to weigh every charge for a while until you can get an idea of whether or not it is throwing consistent charges. 2 Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted January 14 Posted January 14 Load at the middle of the range and use a firm roll crimp. Might consider mag primers too. I was never impressed with TB. Through 10 charges and weigh each one..... 1 1 Quote
Sedalia Dave Posted January 14 Posted January 14 No longer any issues posting load data on the wire. It would be very helpful to know the charge weight, bullet weight and bullet design as well as the COAL. As Abilene pointed out run 10 cases through your press and weigh each one to see how much variation you are getting. From my experience your charge weights are likely inconsistent. TB behaves very poorly with charge weights even a tenth of a grain below minimums in cold weather. I've loaded better than 20K 38 specials using TB and once I got my Dillon to throw consistent charges and then dialed in a good charge weight, I had good results with it. I can help get it dialed in but need to know all the above load data parameters to diagnose your issue. 1 Quote
Toranado, SASS # 58447 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 I load about 10k rounds a year of 105's 38cal using 3.0gr of trail boss for the last 10 years I think. using Dillon 650. It's so consistent, that I no long have a powder check and have never had a squib failure due to lack of powder. It is temp. sensitive in cold weather I have found (maybe freezing and below) , but rarely ever shoot when it's that cold anymore. Something is not right with the setup or dispenser. 3 Quote
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 I've never had problems with it. I always measure every charge. If it's giving you problems, I'll gladly take it off your hands. Quote
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted January 14 Posted January 14 TB was known to be inconsistent when lightly loaded. Chances are you worked with the low end and then had problems with your powder measure making them too light. 1 Quote
Sixgun Seamus Posted January 14 Posted January 14 I loaded TB in various calibers on a Hornady Lock n Load. I had to use the big drum in the powder measure to get consistent loads. The small drum would bridge the powder. Use some sort of powder cop to check your loads during your loading process. I highly recommend the RCBS Lockout die. High or low charges will stop your press. 1 Quote
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 My load data shows I was using 3.3 gr with a 105 gr bullet and a Federal small pistol primer. I know Hodgdon’s site 3.0 gr as the minimum but I would first check your measures consistently then possibly up your load a little. 2 Quote
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted January 15 Posted January 15 For powders like that, I use a fish tank aerator as a vibrator on top of my powder measure. Really helps consistency. Quote
watab kid Posted January 15 Posted January 15 "...... - I have to ask, is this the new Trail Boss or the old? If old, has it been stored in a controlled environment? - What temperature have the failures occurred. ....." these were my thoughts , Quote
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted January 15 Posted January 15 All I use is Trail Boss too.. Load on a Dillon 550.. 3.0 in pistols.. 3.6 in rifle.. Never a problem.. Like Marauder said.. might try a vibration mode of some sort… Just sayin’😳 Quote
"Big Boston" Posted January 15 Posted January 15 I've worked with TB a bit, and in some loads, it is the only powder that works well, does what it is supposed to do. However, I've also run into issues. The most important tool to use when developing loads is a chronograph, use it and find the issue and correct it. Next, you need to check the powder camber volume when using TB. Trail Boss does not work under about the 70% - 75% loading density. I check the volume with my digital scale. I start with a clean case, size and seat a bullet, no primer. I then weight the case and bullet, in grams. Next I fill the case with water using the syringe, and weigh again, in grams. The difference is the powder chamber volume. You can then use a LEE dipper chart or LEE VMD data to calculate the minimum charge. Then you load at 75% load density and chronograph the load. I picked up this method from one of the posts on this forum, and it is to shoot one five shot string with the powder against the bullet. Simply point the gun at the ground, raise it to horizontal and shoot over the chrono. do this for 5 shots. That will be one string. The other five shot string will be with the powder against the primer, I point the muzzle skyward, lower the gun horizontal and shoot over the screens. Note: the range I use permits me to point my muzzle up when I'm chronographing. If your data shows an issue, you likely have an ignition issue. I will try several different primers in an attempt to get better numbers. Most of the time, this method will work. You are using a 110 gr bullet. I've found that a heavier bullet will work better. In 38 I load a 147 gr bullet, and 148 to 155 in the 357. When I load to those parameters, they will generally shoot to the sights. Example: Calibre 357 Magnum Date Loaded 2019-08-30 Powder Trail Boss Weight in Grains 3.0 (6L) Bullet 148-358-WC LEE Weight in Grains > 147.5 Primer WSP Loaded OAL 1.37 Case ☆▬▬▬☆ 357 MAGNUM Weight in Grains Times Loaded Number loaded Velocity Av 709.8/703.6 Es 18.1/17.9 Sd 8.12/8.71 Shots 5>/5< I tested a few primers, none were bad, but the WSP was the most consistent, with the lowest velocity app 10 fps, and the lowest Sd (Standard Deviation) buy a 1 - 2 fps. I develop all my loads this way, but skip the powder chamber volume measurement as that really only applies with TB. YMMV, but I never had very much luck with a light bullet (125 - 135 gr) in a 38 Spl case. I had luck with 135s in a 38 LC case and about 2.5 grains. BB Quote
Griff Posted January 15 Posted January 15 (edited) 1. Make sure your powder actuator arm is seated in the plastic square and it stays in the slot on the charge bar. 2. Make sure that with full stroke of the handle you're getting a full stroke of the powder bar. 3. Check your cases for consistent length. 4. Using 10 un-deprimed cases, remove locater button from station 2, and an otherwise empty machine dump powder charges in those 10 cases. 5. Measure dropped charges... s/b within .1 grain for all 10. If not. recheck #1. 6. Check that "wavy" washer is between screw head & actuator arm @ pivot & holds arm tightly in powder slide. 7. Check that plastic roller @ bottom of actuator arm is round and undamaged. 8. If you have old style measure, make sure BOTH springs are in position. If it's the old or new new style, make sure the return rod is pulling the slide completely to the left. 10. If your use the same toolhead for different cartridges, get seperate ones an a powder thru die for each set. A poorly powder thru die will give inconsistent throes. 550s are great machine (I have two), but sometimes, as operators, we have to double check adjustments and condition. *** Oh yeah, about that little [lastic square,it's a wear part, a consumable if you will, it can fail all at once or wear slowly and get smashed, or the hole egg shaped. It is not an extreme service part. Edited January 15 by Griff 2 Quote
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted January 15 Posted January 15 14 hours ago, Prof. Fuller Bullspit said: I found Trail Boss to be temperature sensitive. It is less energetic in the cold. I preferred loads at the upper-mid end of the recommended range. That said, it works well in big cases and I still use it. Exactly what I was thinkin. I've had some inconsistencies in colder weather. Quote
Texas Jack Black Posted January 15 Posted January 15 14 hours ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said: I'm loading on a Dillon 550B. I don't know what current rules say about publishing load data, but I was at the bottom quartile of the published range. It was a light load, but still within range. I do believe you can post the loads. Quote
Kid Rich Posted January 15 Posted January 15 (edited) Shirttail uses TB for her 32 H&R loads. The TB is so fluffy that she just watches the press and visually checks each load. The load she uses is 2.5g. That is the only caliber that she uses TB for because the 32's are hard to visually check with any other powder. kR Edited January 15 by Kid Rich 1 Quote
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted January 15 Posted January 15 12 hours ago, watab kid said: I have to ask, is this the new Trail Boss or the old? I gotta ask, what new Trail Boss? I sent Hodgdon an e-mail asking about, mentioning how people are seeing it Australia. I got a response saying that it's an "active SKU" but that they have not been able to source any and hope to get it back on the market soon. I am sad to say that I think it's been discontinued, but they don't wanna admit it. 1 Quote
Texas Jack Black Posted January 15 Posted January 15 Why is it that for years TB has been used with no issues posted. Now we hear of issues ? Humans😉 1 Quote
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted January 15 Posted January 15 3 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said: Why is it that for years TB has been used with no issues posted. Now we hear of issues ? Humans😉 Actually, people have been complaining about TB for as long as I can remember. Some folks, like me, love the stuff and say so. Others have a very negative view of it for various reasons, and have said so. It seems to be a love it or hate it kind of powder. 1 Quote
Texas Jack Black Posted January 15 Posted January 15 2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: Actually, people have been complaining about TB for as long as I can remember. Some folks, like me, love the stuff and say so. Others have a very negative view of it for various reasons, and have said so. It seems to be a love it or hate it kind of powder. Maybe but not as much as I complain about the price of NANNA SPLITS🍨 Quote
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted January 15 Posted January 15 (edited) 4 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said: Maybe but not as much as I complain about the price of NANNA SPLITS🍨 Tra la la La la la la Tra la la La la la la If you know, you know. Edited January 16 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 1 Quote
Springfield Slim SASS #24733 Posted January 15 Posted January 15 Over the years I have noticed that most of the complaints are from people who like to load in the bottom part of the load chart. That is not what TB is good at, it is for those of us who really don't want the possibility of a double charge. I know, get a powder cop or some such device, but that isn't always a possible on a press with 4 or less stations, and even then I an relying on a tool to keep me safe. I prefer to rely on physics, where it isn't possible to do a double unless I am totally haphazard in my reloading(read stupid/lazy) If you want to go real light there are better powders out there, with more energy for the weight. I load for 4 of us and in the last 10 years have not had any problems with TB, so I don't think it is just luck. 2 Quote
Eyesa Horg Posted January 15 Posted January 15 1 minute ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said: Over the years I have noticed that most of the complaints are from people who like to load in the bottom part of the load chart. That is not what TB is good at, it is for those of us who really don't want the possibility of a double charge. I know, get a powder cop or some such device, but that isn't always a possible on a press with 4 or less stations, and even then I an relying on a tool to keep me safe. I prefer to rely on physics, where it isn't possible to do a double unless I am totally haphazard in my reloading(read stupid/lazy) If you want to go real light there are better powders out there, with more energy for the weight. I load for 4 of us and in the last 10 years have not had any problems with TB, so I don't think it is just luck. I've found it difficult to double charge on a progressive Dillon SDB. When it rotates there is no way it's getting a double charge at the seating position. And to pay basically twice the price essentially to avoid actual human error seems pricey. Especially loading for multiple people. If you have to remove the cases from the press due to a hiccup, just dump the powder on the last one and start back at station 2. Just my lame opinion on a product that may never be back. 3 Quote
El Sobrante Kid Posted January 15 Posted January 15 17 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: Tra la la La la la la Tra la la La la la If you know, you know. One banana, two banana, three banana, four, ... Quote
Eyesa Horg Posted January 15 Posted January 15 5 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said: One banana, two banana, three banana, four, ... And 2 cherries on top 🍒! Quote
Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 Posted January 15 Posted January 15 the 2 down sides of Trail Boss besides price/ being found Bridging Static cling a thumper will help with bridging , a drier sheet , will help with static cling CB 2 Quote
Eyesa Horg Posted January 15 Posted January 15 16 minutes ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said: the 2 down sides of Trail Boss besides price/ being found Bridging Static cling a thumper will help with bridging , a drier sheet , will help with static cling CB And a lot of Hoppes will keep your rifle clean. Quote
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted January 16 Posted January 16 4 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said: One banana, two banana, three banana, four, ... Four bananas make a bunch there isn't any more. Quote
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