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WTC gun knocked off Loading table


Irish-Pat
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Years ago, at a State match, I was at the loading table preparing/loading to shoot our second stage of the day. As I was loading my pistols, I noticed the shooter beside me unload empty brass out of his pistols. He looked at me, I looked at him and said "Well, that sucks". He replied, "I got to talking after the last stage and forgot, no harm, no foul...right." I said "Wrong" and then asked if he was going to turn himself in to which he really didn't give an answer.

 

I shot the stage, then he shot the stage. After he was done at the unloading table, I asked him if he had told our posse marshal about the 1st stage mistake...he hadn't. I gave him an ultimatum; he could tell the PM by the end of the stage we were shooting or I'd do it for him. Took him about 5 - 10 minutes to make up his mind but he did admit the mistake to out PM and incurred the SDQ for stage one.

 

I'm glad that I didn't have to be the one to "tell on him" but I'm pretty sure that if no one had noticed the empties coming out of his pistol on stage 2, he would have never said anything. I lost a lot of respect for him that morning.

 

The shooter who knocked the gun off the table know who he/she is, the person that received the unearned MDQ know who he/she is and the rest of the shooters at the LT know who he/she is. It takes years to garner a good reputation, but it only takes second to destroy that good reputation.

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25 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Years ago, at a State match, I was at the loading table preparing/loading to shoot our second stage of the day. As I was loading my pistols, I noticed the shooter beside me unload empty brass out of his pistols. He looked at me, I looked at him and said "Well, that sucks". He replied, "I got to talking after the last stage and forgot, no harm, no foul...right." I said "Wrong" and then asked if he was going to turn himself in to which he really didn't give an answer.

 

I shot the stage, then he shot the stage. After he was done at the unloading table, I asked him if he had told our posse marshal about the 1st stage mistake...he hadn't. I gave him an ultimatum; he could tell the PM by the end of the stage we were shooting or I'd do it for him. Took him about 5 - 10 minutes to make up his mind but he did admit the mistake to out PM and incurred the SDQ for stage one.

 

I'm glad that I didn't have to be the one to "tell on him" but I'm pretty sure that if no one had noticed the empties coming out of his pistol on stage 2, he would have never said anything. I lost a lot of respect for him that morning.

 

The shooter who knocked the gun off the table know who he/she is, the person that received the unearned MDQ know who he/she is and the rest of the shooters at the LT know who he/she is. It takes years to garner a good reputation, but it only takes second to destroy that good reputation.

The way bad news travels at a match I’d bet everyone that was at the match knows who the knocker offer was. Why the guy that got the MDQ didn’t raise hell about it is what I’m wondering about.

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I am pretty sure English teachers across America are having mini heart attacks each time someone types knocker offer. 

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6 hours ago, Cholla said:

I am pretty sure English teachers across America are having mini heart attacks each time someone types knocker offer. 

 

I'm sure knocker offers occur all the time at certain "establishments".:ph34r:;)

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21 hours ago, Circuit Rider Jeff said:

This sounds like a good topic to address at our first shoot of 2023, also to note to anyone working the loading table to be vigilant about a shooter touching another shooters guns. Overcrowded loading tables usually mean theres  a brass picker or target reset person or a spotter missing. It's always good to run a tight ship out there on the range hurt feelings can never outweigh safety.

I agree with CRJ.  And, it's not just overcrowded loading tables that could signal a missing worker, but a line of shooters with long guns resting on boots, waiting in line to load.  Our loading tables are 8" long and comfortably fit 3 shooters and all 4 firearms.  Any more than 3 at the table is unnecessary.  If 4th person is at the table, it can actually be uncomfortably close.  It's still going to take the posse the same amount of time to get through the stage - or possibly longer if we're short workers.
Moving anyone else's guns is a bad idea.  While some may not mind, many if not most, are of the mindset that you don't touch anyone else's firearms without permission.  The MDQ call should have been addressed when it was made.  Big matches have an assigned group of knowledgeable folks and a policy in place to handle disputes.  Monthly matches have an RO, MD, and TG usually in attendance.  When in doubt, address the issue.  Everyone can learn from it.

Edited by Black Hills Barb
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Posse Marshal/Deputy Posse Marshal – is in charge of a posse and is required to ensure all posse positions are manned to safely and efficiently run the posse through each course of fire, ensuring all rules and regulations are followed.

SHB p.20

RO1 p.24

 

 

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13 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Years ago, at a State match, I was at the loading table preparing/loading to shoot our second stage of the day. As I was loading my pistols, I noticed the shooter beside me unload empty brass out of his pistols. He looked at me, I looked at him and said "Well, that sucks". He replied, "I got to talking after the last stage and forgot, no harm, no foul...right." I said "Wrong" and then asked if he was going to turn himself in to which he really didn't give an answer.

 

I shot the stage, then he shot the stage. After he was done at the unloading table, I asked him if he had told our posse marshal about the 1st stage mistake...he hadn't. I gave him an ultimatum; he could tell the PM by the end of the stage we were shooting or I'd do it for him. Took him about 5 - 10 minutes to make up his mind but he did admit the mistake to out PM and incurred the SDQ for stage one.

 

I'm glad that I didn't have to be the one to "tell on him" but I'm pretty sure that if no one had noticed the empties coming out of his pistol on stage 2, he would have never said anything. I lost a lot of respect for him that morning.

 

The shooter who knocked the gun off the table know who he/she is, the person that received the unearned MDQ know who he/she is and the rest of the shooters at the LT know who he/she is. It takes years to garner a good reputation, but it only takes second to destroy that good reputation.

At a state match a couple years ago, I got back to my cart after a stage and something didn't feel right. I finally put the long guns in my cart and went to empty my brass that I always hang on the hammer of my right pistol. Uh Oh, never went to unloading. Picked up the long guns and proceeded to unloading table, then to RO to get my SDQ.:(

Someone actually said to me that I should have just gone to the porta potty and unloaded the pistol brass! :blush: I would never have been able to show my ugly puss at a match again. You'd think we were playing for millions of dollars. My integrity is worth way more.

Edited by Eyesa Horg
Otto
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Even as a new shooter, sure sounds like a "Spirit of the Game" issue.  I fully agree with Eyesa....a clear integrity issue.  SB

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Stage description - 99% of time- Pistols loaded with 5 rounds and Holstered!  Why do shooters leave their loaded pistols on the table?

To me they're just taking up unnecessary space on the loading table.

 

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Interesting to me in that I was told pretty much from the beginning you do not holster till you are the next shooter.  Heard it more than once.  I thought it was the gospel.  Posts like this can help people like me realize all I thought was true is not necessarily true.  I do understand it might be true for particular clubs and might even be helpful for that shooter that suddenly realizes he needs something from his cart and therefore would not be guilty of walking away with loaded pistols.  

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I have been told that by more than one club that you COULD NOT holster until you were the next shooter!

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32 minutes ago, Dream Chaser, SASS #79316 said:

Interesting to me in that I was told pretty much from the beginning you do not holster till you are the next shooter.  Heard it more than once.  I thought it was the gospel.  Posts like this can help people like me realize all I thought was true is not necessarily true.  I do understand it might be true for particular clubs and might even be helpful for that shooter that suddenly realizes he needs something from his cart and therefore would not be guilty of walking away with loaded pistols.  

When I started 11 years and to this day 99.9% holster after loading. However, you can't leave the table without leaving the loaded pistols on the table. I suppose there is good logic there, it would suck to drop a loaded pistols on the ground when you bend over to get whatever it was you needed to leave for. They do take up a lot more space if everyone left them on the table and the extra time to keep the line moving.

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The times I’ve needed to go back to cart I’ve asked a fellow loading neighbor to keep an eye on the guns. It’s then a quick there and back asap. I’ve also been asked to keep an eye on some else’s guns if they need to step away…. I’ve never seen anyone just walk away without asking someone to watch them… leaving loaded guns unattended is never a good idea…. taking sooo long that guns had to be moved would just be rude…..I’d imagine if that happened it would be easy enough to leap-frog those guns on the table without needing to touch them. 

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16 minutes ago, El Catorce said:

I’d imagine if that happened it would be easy enough to leap-frog those guns on the table without needing to touch them. 

 

I agree with everything you said about leaving and watching guns. But, I have been at an event that you were probably at where the person to my left finished loading their guns and moved their long guns to the right hitting my long guns. I put enough dings in my guns, I don't want anyone else scratching them! Personally, I don't like expeditors picking up my rifle and carrying it to the unloading table either.

The way I read the initial post, that is what I believe happened. Nobody left the loading table, the 2nd or 3rd person in line was just careless (and maybe trying to hurry things for no reason) when they moved their long guns bumping into the next persons guns. The pistol(s) were probably left (unsafely?) to close to the edge of the table or possibly resting on another gun, which due to a chain reaction or murphy caused one to fall of the table.

There are several posts saying that the person that caused the incident never spoke up, but the original poster never said that. The instigator may have spoken up, but the TO at the event decided that the SASS rules only applied to the owner of the guns since they were his responsibility.

Edited by Itchy Trigger
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4 minutes ago, Itchy Trigger said:

There are several posts saying that the person that caused the incident never spoke up, but the original poster never said that. The instigator may have spoken up, but the TO at the event decided that the SASS rules only applied to the owner of the guns since they were his responsibility.

 

The OP stated:

On 1/8/2023 at 6:36 PM, Irish-Pat said:

 Nobody owned up to it

 

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2 hours ago, Itchy Trigger said:

I have been told that by more than one club that you COULD NOT holster until you were the next shooter!

Plenty of 'authorities' cite rules that don't exist.  OTH, some clubs may have that rule.  None that I've ever shot at.

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I'm probably in the minority here, but every shooter is responsible for his or her own guns at ALL times, especially when loaded.  If you aren't paying attention and your gun gets bumped or knocked off, that is on you, even if the other guy caused it.  I routinely keep my hand on my long guns at the loading table as I'm watching the current shooter for that very reason.

Edited by Clint Steele
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38 minutes ago, Clint Steele said:

I'm probably in the minority here, but every shooter is responsible for his or her own guns at ALL times, especially when loaded.  If you aren't paying attention and your gun gets bumped or knocked off, that is on you, even if the other guy caused it.  I routinely keep my hand on my long guns at the loading table as I'm watching the current shooter for that very reason.

 

Wrong.

 

If someone runs into my vehicle while it's legally parked, that's supposed to somehow be my fault?

I don't think so.

 

 

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I'm pretty new to this, but at the range I shoot at I was told that if I have my pistols loaded and in their holsters I must stay within arms reach of the loading table. 

 

If I need to go further than that I must place my loaded pistols on the loading table first. 

 

We had a funny incident on Saturday where a guy sat his guns down and went back to his cart to grab something. The next guy up to shoot accidentally grabbed the wrong rifle. Unfortunately for him it was unloaded and he shot pistols first so he ended up with 10 misses for the stage. After that the MD started enforcing "no more than 3 people at the loading table at a time."

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33 minutes ago, Clint Steele said:

I'm probably in the minority here, but every shooter is responsible for his or her own guns at ALL times, especially when loaded.  If you aren't paying attention and your gun gets bumped or knocked off, that is on you, even if the other guy caused it.  I routinely keep my hand on my long guns at the loading table as I'm watching the current shooter for that very reason.

I doubt you're in the minority at all.  And while I agree with your statement, to give that cowboy a MDQ for the act of another is excessive.  As most have said, the actual culprit knows who he is... he's the one deserving of the penalty.   Crowded loading tables, with extraneous guns laying about, are simply symptoms of a problem.  Impatience.  Which can't be adequately addressed with a rule or supervision.

 

While i generally agree with PWB on everything, the need for loading table officers is one where we go separate ways.  I've only encountered them on rare occasion, and they fall into two general headings:  autocratic authoritarians, or clueless windbags.  The first are closet nazis and generally deserve the same sort of thrashing they were given in WWII; the second are a waste of space... better served picking brass where at least they're performing a useful task, instead of talking everyone's ear off;  surely not as a spotter where they can't pay enough attention to follow the course of fire thru one gun... let along four!  An example of #1, after I loaded my rifle, I unholstered my Colt 1851 and took out my powder flask, wad bag, box of balls & capper, laying each out on the table.  I then picked up my revolver and set it down on the table, butt down... the LTO then slapped my barrel down flat on the table and told me my pistols must be loaded with the barrel pointed down!  I looked at the idiot and said, "I'll do that as soon as you tell me how to pour my powder UP in the chambers?"  LTOs have improved very little since that nitwit! 

 

At my very first cowboy shoot, the guy that invited me out stuck with me and mentored me thru the first few stages, coaching me on the best way to load my guns, how to lay them on the table to take up the least amount of space, being considerate of other folks there and to ignore others so's to not be distracted while I'm loading.  An LTO that stands there at your shoulder, counting each round as it goes in your rifle, and each round as it goes in your pistol then demands to see the gap between your cylinder & frame, is just that, a distraction.  If a LTO can't tell that I'm loading a Colt, with load one, skip one, load four, pull to full cock and let the hammer down, & that sequence was followed precisely, therefore no live round is going to be under my hammer, then that LTO a waste of time and space.  If a Ruger shooter loads five, then rotates the cylinder to have the empty chamber under the firing pin & closes the loading gate, then simply watching the shooter do that should be enough.  Making them then twist their arm around so the LTO can "see" that gap, is superfluous, & possibly dangerous.  If you're the shooter that's not confident enough to load your guns properly, then... sure ask the person behind you to make sure you do it right...  I certainly don't think less of such folks.  Actually, we all could stand to be a bit for cautious in our actions... from driving the car to activities on the range.   Don't even get me started on the LTO that demands to see that there's no cap under the hammer on my 1851s... after the fact.

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Loading Table Officer – is responsible for visually checking to ensure all firearms are loaded with only the correct number of rounds, verify no round is ever under the firing pin of any firearm, and all loaded firearms’ hammers are fully down on an empty chamber.

SHB p.21

RO1 p.8

 

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I know a lot of clubs big and small have gone away from a LTO and just ask another shooter to check your pistols.  IMHO a lot of this comes down to respect and courtesy.  Have the courtesy to wait your turn at the table, the stage isn’t going anywhere and crowding won’t make anyone go onto the stage any quicker.  Also don’t be having a conversation at the LT, some shooters are concentrating on their pre-shooting routine and others (like me) are concentrating on making sure every gun is loaded correctly (think Frontiersman).  And as far as respect, don’t touch someone else’s guns without permission that includes moving them on a table, don’t crowd another shooter, no one likes it, and remember you’re not the only shooter, treat others better than you want to be treated. 

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5 hours ago, Itchy Trigger said:

I have been told that by more than one club that you COULD NOT holster until you were the next shooter!

 

I've never been told that at any club/match I've been to since my very first match in 2009.

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3 hours ago, Clint Steele said:

I'm probably in the minority here, but every shooter is responsible for his or her own guns at ALL times, especially when loaded.  If you aren't paying attention and your gun gets bumped or knocked off, that is on you, even if the other guy caused it.  I routinely keep my hand on my long guns at the loading table as I'm watching the current shooter for that very reason.

Three shooting positions. Pistols from table 1, then rifle from table 2. Then shotgun from table three. Shooter stages long guns and moves to table 1 to begin the stage. Spotter bumps the rifle and knocks it off table 2. You’re going to call a MDQ on the shooter?

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The penalty is for a dropped gun.  As Pale Wolf’s comments make make clear, the penalty belongs to the person who caused it to go to the ground.

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It's interesting that we know the revolver was knocked off by someone moving a rifle but we don't know who was moving the rifle?  :huh: 

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Three shooting positions. Pistols from table 1, then rifle from table 2. Then shotgun from table three. Shooter stages long guns and moves to table 1 to begin the stage. Spotter bumps the rifle and knocks it off table 2. You’re going to call a MDQ on the shooter?

That's a fair point for sure, however, at the loading table the shooter is (or should be) within arms reach of all guns and should be aware enough of the bumping and jostling going on to protect his guns from getting bumped off the table.  On the line the shooter has already safely staged his guns and is about to commence his course of fire.  However, the guy at the loading table who bumped the pistol off is a "shooter on the firing line" the moment he put his first gun on the table.  So while I stand by my comment that a shooter needs to be responsible at all times for his own guns, I agree with PW and others that the penalty should be on the shooter at the loading table who knocked it off.

Edited by Clint Steele
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57 minutes ago, Clint Steele said:

That's a fair point for sure, however, at the loading table the shooter is (or should be) within arms reach of all guns and should be aware enough of the bumping and jostling going on to protect his guns from getting bumped off the table.  On the line the shooter has already safely staged his guns and is about to commence his course of fire.  However, the guy at the loading table who bumped the pistol off is a "shooter on the firing line" the moment he put his first gun on the table.  So while I stand by my comment that a shooter needs to be responsible at all times for his own guns, I agree with PW and others that the penalty should be on the shooter at the loading table who knocked it off.

Respectfully this is not a rule. This is your opinion. Plenty of people leave their guns on the loading table and go back to their carts.

 

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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18 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

the shooter is (or should be) within arms reach of all guns

 

18 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Respectfully this is not a rule. This is your opinion.

Correct me if i am wrong,

But isn't the rule if you have loaded holstered guns, you must stay within kicking distance of the loading table.

If you are going to your cart or anywhere further than kicking distance from the loading table, you must unholster your loaded guns and  place your loaded guns on the loading table. This has been the rule for years almost everywhere I have shot and I have stopped people from walking away from the loading table with loaded guns several times. Usually before the shooter got too far from the table.

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12 minutes ago, Maddog McCoy SASS #5672 said:

 

Correct me if i am wrong,

But isn't the rule if you have loaded holstered guns, you must stay within kicking distance of the loading table.

If you are going to your cart or anywhere further than kicking distance from the loading table, you must unholster your loaded guns and  place your loaded guns on the loading table. This has been the rule for years almost everywhere I have shot and I have stopped people from walking away from the loading table with loaded guns several times. Usually before the shooter got too far from the table.

You’re correct. That’s not what he said.  There’s no rule against leaving all your guns on the loading table and stepping away, at which point you are not within arm’s reach AND you’re not violating a rule.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Respectfully this is not a rule. This is your opinion. Plenty of people leave their guns on the loading table and go back to their carts.

 

My comment said "at the loading table the shooter is (or should be) within arms reach of all guns."  Once that shooter makes the decision to leave his loaded guns unattended at the loading table, he should take responsibility for what happens to them while he is gone.  He made the decision to leave them unattended.  We've all done it, but with decisions come consequences.  Would you leave loaded guns anywhere else and simply walk away?  The point of this post is even experienced SASS shooters get careless sometimes with other people's guns.  Ultimately your guns are your responsibility.

Edited by Clint Steele
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Again, respectfully, that’s not what the rules say. 
 

SHB page 28

Competitors shall not leave the designated loading area with a loaded firearm unless they are called to the stage as the next competitor to begin the stage by the Timer Operator or Expeditor.

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