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Issue at a match yesterday.  Shotgun target trips a bird.  Shotgun target went down, no bird.  TO said shoot where it was which was correct.  Two schools of thought were present.  One, grant him the bonus,  the other was that he could keep his score, without the bonus, or be granted a reshoot.  What is correct?

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If the bird was a "Bonus", I'd give him the bonus so long as he shot into the berm for the shot at the missing clay. As said, shoot where it was supposed to be.

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JWH:

Standard procedure at Milan - a bird that comes out broken, doesn't come out at all, or fires back toward the shooter is a hit as long as the round is expended safely downrange.  If it's a bonus round, the bonus is recorded.

 

CS

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41 minutes ago, Count Sandor, SASS #74075 said:

JWH:

Standard procedure at Milan - a bird that comes out broken, doesn't come out at all, or fires back toward the shooter is a hit as long as the round is expended safely downrange.  If it's a bonus round, the bonus is recorded.

 

CS

Now that is cowboy action shooting.

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On a prop failure, a reshoot "may" be granted... (IIRC the rules correctly)

 

Why would it not be granted? Maybe that should be a "shall."

 

Taking the reshoot is the shooter's call. If I were granted the bonus, I probably would not take the reshoot; but I would be "upset" is I was not granted either a reshoot or the bonus to choose from.

 

"He should keep his score without the bonus..." That should be the shooter's call, not scorer's or TO's call without offering a reshoot for a prop failure.

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My understanding of the rules is that he should have been offered a reshoot or keep the score without the bonus.

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Bonuses can be fun, but unless the bonus is totally not score related, once the first person gets it, everyone else who misses it is more of a penalty.

 

So say the bonus was to take 5 seconds off your time.  Then it's basically another target.  A shooter who doesn't get the chance to shoot a target due to prop failure must still fire the round, but is scored with a hit.  

 

 

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11 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Prop Failure.  Nasty business.  Always be sure to safety wire the nuts that hold the prop to the flange.

Agree, and if you can get a lighter prop, reduces the shift in CG if it departs.

 

image.png.8e49e2971b8384c4da362b4f2c80dd15.png

 

 

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Award the bonus

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All targets have a time assigned to them.

Examples:

A hit target has a value of 0. (zero) It adds nothing to the time.

A missed target has a value of 5 seconds. It adds 5 seconds to the time.

 

A hit  "Bonus Target" has a value of -5 seconds. It subtracts 5 seconds from the time.

A missed "Bonus Target" has a value of +5 seconds.

I adds +5 seconds to the time.

There for a "Bonus Target" is a +10 second target for a miss.

 

"Bonus Targets" are not nothing more that added scoring math nightmares.

 

If you want to use a "Bonus Target" instead of the -5 seconds for the hit and +5 seconds for the miss, just make it a -10 miss and 0 (zero) for the hit.

--------------------

Having written many stages for several clubs over 20 years, I used "Bonus Target".

For the stage, the "Bonus Target" was scored like any other target. (miss was -5 seconds and 0 (zero for a hit)

But, if hit, the shooter got a mark (B) on the score card indicating the hit and was given an extra raffle drawing ticket at the end of the match before the drawing.

This way the target did not effect the scoring with a -10 seconds (making it a must hit after the first shooter that hit it) and the shooter got something of value for the hit.

 

The Bonus was, the score keepers did not have to remember any special math considerations during that stage.

Just standard misses and recorded time math.

Oh and a "B" on the card for the hit.

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ROII Page 8 says:

 

In the event a target fails or falls to the ground, the Timer Operator should instruct the shooter to “shoot where it was.” This call will never result in a penalty of any kind to the shooter. 

 

Based on that I would award the bonus.

 

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3 hours ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

All targets have a time assigned to them.

Examples:

A hit target has a value of 0. (zero) It adds nothing to the time.

A missed target has a value of 5 seconds. It adds 5 seconds to the time.

 

A hit  "Bonus Target" has a value of -5 seconds. It subtracts 5 seconds from the time.

A missed "Bonus Target" has a value of +5 seconds.

I adds +5 seconds to the time.

There for a "Bonus Target" is a +10 second target for a miss.

 

"Bonus Targets" are not nothing more that added scoring math nightmares.

 

If you want to use a "Bonus Target" instead of the -5 seconds for the hit and +5 seconds for the miss, just make it a -10 miss and 0 (zero) for the hit.

--------------------

Having written many stages for several clubs over 20 years, I used "Bonus Target".

For the stage, the "Bonus Target" was scored like any other target. (miss was -5 seconds and 0 (zero for a hit)

But, if hit, the shooter got a mark (B) on the score card indicating the hit and was given an extra raffle drawing ticket at the end of the match before the drawing.

This way the target did not effect the scoring with a -10 seconds (making it a must hit after the first shooter that hit it) and the shooter got something of value for the hit.

 

The Bonus was, the score keepers did not have to remember any special math considerations during that stage.

Just standard misses and recorded time math.

Oh and a "B" on the card for the hit.

 

Every club I have shot at if you miss the bonus target it does not count as a miss. 

 

Hit bonus =  Subtract 5 seconds from total time for that stage

Miss bonus =  Zero Neither adds or subtracts from stage time

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At our range we don't use bonus targets.  If we have flyers, which we use a lot, a hit on the flyer is a hit and a miss can be made up on a separate  static target. 

That way shooters that don't do well on flyers can still have a clean shoot.

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21 minutes ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

a hit on the flyer is a hit and a miss can be made up on a separate  static target

I guess a really fast shotgunner shoots one in the berm and one at that make up target before the flyer reaches it's culmination, just saying... :ph34r:

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I agree that the bonus should be granted if the shooter discharges a load safely into the berm,...

.... but if I go to the range I go to have fun shooting and not to win anything. I personally would like to have the option for a reshoot to see if I get that flyer. Also, if a lot of pards missed that flyer I would feel quite uncomfortable to receive it as a gift. 

 

Equanimous Phil 

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Think about it another way...

 

If I fulfill all of the ENGAGEMENTS (hitting the available targets - firing where they were for unavailable targets) that the stage has presented to me (and targets that become unavailable by falling, breaking or failing - do not affect my engagement of same)  - then I get credit for everything (including bonuses) because my simple ENGAGEMENT of the (unavailable) targets count as hits (and regarding any persons ability to have struck, the flyer, bonus, etc. benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter). 

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2 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

I guess a really fast shotgunner shoots one in the berm and one at that make up target before the flyer reaches it's culmination, just saying... :ph34r:

You would have to be really fast, but why bother to do all that rather than just  shooting the flyer. At our range, if you shot the stage as you described you would get a "P" for not following stage instructions.

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17 minutes ago, Jeb Stuart #65654 said:

You would have to be really fast, but why bother to do all that rather than just  shooting the flyer. At our range, if you shot the stage as you described you would get a "P" for not following stage instructions.

And maybe even a Spirit of the Game penalty

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2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Think about it another way...

 

If I fulfill all of the ENGAGEMENTS (hitting the available targets - firing where they were for unavailable targets) that the stage has presented to me (and targets that become unavailable by falling, breaking or failing - do not affect my engagement of same)  - then I get credit for everything (including bonuses) because my simple ENGAGEMENT of the (unavailable) targets count as hits (and regarding any persons ability to have struck, the flyer, bonus, etc. benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter). 

The only thing I see for discussion in this post is for the new shooter who does not have the experience to know to shoot "where it would be" when it does not show up. This costs time... Better with coaching, but still takes time to process the interrupt.

 

The experienced shooter would "get" the situation and throw a round at the berm and proceed without coaching.

 

But even then, the experienced shooter would get a better time than the beginner (like me) anyway so really, no harm no foul when having drinks later that night.

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On 3/29/2021 at 5:50 AM, Count Sandor, SASS #74075 said:

JWH:

Standard procedure at Milan - a bird that comes out broken, doesn't come out at all, or fires back toward the shooter is a hit as long as the round is expended safely downrange.  If it's a bonus round, the bonus is recorded.

 

CS

 

Ive always wanted to set up a clay thrower to launch the clay RIGHT AT the shooter on activation.  You have a choice.  Break it for the bonus...or DUCK!  :D

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