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Grow the game: Reduce barriers to entry


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5 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

I don't know haw many times I have heard "oh, so you're a cowboy shooter. That's where they shoots guns that have less recoil than a .22. No thanks, I like to shoot real guns".

^^^^^ This

5 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Frankly, I think it's the stages.  I know this may not be popular.  But really think about it.  Why do so many go to IDPA or IPSC?  Movement, challenging stages, lots of reactive targets.  The shooting part is exciting and fun.  SASS rules just don't allow setting up matches like this.  As a result, the stages really are very similar.  Along the lines of shoot a gun, move to another position, shoot a gun or two, move to another position, shoot the last gun.

 

^^^^ and this!!

 

I love playing Cowboy and that's why I love CAS! But honestly, shooting CAS stages unfortunately resembles rather plinking at a carnival shooting gallery than a serious shooting sport due to the reasons mentioned by Doc Shapiro, ...

 

... and the power factor: If you watch videos without sound turned on of CAS shooters with those downloaded 38s you would think they're dry firing or shooting bb guns or something. A PF of 60 is (sorry for my directness) ridiculous. Every other dynamic shooting sport I know of starts with a PF of about 125 for their handgun minor categories. Wild Bunch requires 150. Honestly, I wonder why the PF in CAS was determined so extremely low and imho it should be doubled.

I'd like to add that I'd have no problem a pard being allowed (on a local level) lower PFs for medical issues to keep him in the game, same like an exception for wearing sneakers with bad feet.

 

I assume when Classic Cowboy was created one of the goals was to provide a category to shoot big bore guns more competively but they missed the opportunity to adjust the PF for that category. (I am aware that some shooters can win overall with 45s, but generally the small ones are faster)

 

Equanimous Phil

 

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13 hours ago, Colonel Lou said:

  If we really want to grow the sport, we should consider helping new shooters get into the sport by offering them discounted items. What I propose is if there are generous hearts out there who are capable of discounting prices to "new" shooters, we live the Cowboy Way.   I am sure there are a lot out there who do this already but maybe it could be organized on a different level.  We can do this through our local clubs or even set up a thread or a forum of items for sale for "New Shooters Only"  Easy to determine by their SASS number and discounts could be applied for those items.  Just a thought.

This is one of the reasons I feel it is wrong for vendors to be allowed to buy on the wire classifieds in order to mark up and resell on their market place account.

 I am of the opinion that the wire classifieds should be for shooters to buy, sell, and trade among themselves for the ability to acquire gear at less than retail cost.

 Most all pairs of desirable revolvers and shotguns that are posted for bargain prices are immediately snatched up by the same few folks that simply mark them up to the cost of a new stock gun or more. No bargains to be had when this happens. 
 

Edited by Chert Rock Chuck
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3 hours ago, Chert Rock Chuck said:

This is one of the reasons I feel it is wrong for vendors to be allowed to buy on the wire classifieds in order to mark up and resell on their market place account.

 I am of the opinion that the wire classifieds should be for shooters to buy, sell, and trade among themselves for the ability to acquire gear at less than retail cost.

 Most all pairs of desirable revolvers and shotguns that are posted for bargain prices are immediately snatched up by the same few folks that simply mark them up to the cost of a new stock gun or more. No bargains to be had when this happens. 
 

two edged sword, a person who is looking to sell so they can get something better is better served by a wider audience for their goods.  the people who routinely deal in these items have the widest audience and therefore keep the cost of the used goods higher for both those looking to get in, but also those looking to trade up.  I think there's room for individuals to offer discounts based on factors like welcoming someone to the sport, but I don't think that should be mandated, and I also feel that artificially reducing demand by prohibiting certain people from purchasing in certain ways doesn't help the health of the commerce that goes on here.  These guns are an investment and it's nice to know that if I get into this and something happens in a few years and I have to get out, that I can find buyers for the gear I just invested in.

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Okay.

Tbone started a Pro Steel match on his range.

A mix of CAS steel , with 'black guns' and big movement.

It has not attracted many to CAS, but they do help him with setting all stages. Has the CAS in the AM, and has lunch, then the PCC match.

TWO DIFFERENT matches.

CAS is CAS...we do not need to 'add' new guns to use, in my opinion...

Those that want to shoot our sport will and do.

We have 6 children in the age of 26-36...and the cost factor is NOT the issue. TIME is.

With having to work, take kids to THEIR sports, school programs, ect...there is no time. We could not start this sport untill we had only the youngest at home.

Never,have I ever, NOT seen a CAS offer guns, gear or ammo to a new shooter to use untill they could get there own.

Never, have I ever, heard a CAS shooter say a time limit as in "you can use this only 3 more times...", ect...

Let's face it...the sport, as it is, is CAS.

We are slowing because of life situations/time factors, not lack of interest.

Remember this...many of the young shooters from the past were there shooting, because they were their with grandparents. (Ex: Holy Terror...Georgia Slick shots grandkids, Taz....)

They grew up...went on to their own lives. :wub:

Well, except for HT...who's carrer is in guns

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I know of one very small club, that owns a set of .22 gear (and ammo) for young shooters to borrow at that club.

I don't know why we need that for the adults, as I said above, we will lend whatever-whenever to anyone interested at a match.

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So many keep responding with some variation of "I've never seen an established shooter not offer guns." And you're right--I've never seen a time when at least one shooter on a posse didn't offer a newbie the use of their guns and ammo to try the sport out. That's great and I love that about our community.

 

But I still feel from anecdotal evidence of talking to individuals that I or others have brought out to give it a try, that there are those new shooters--I was one of them--who simply are not comfortable with consistently asking others to loan them their gear. And at the same time, those new shooters don't have the funds to invest in a full set of guns to start now. Or they may have enough for that, but not the time or money to do the same with the reloading side of the game. So maybe they save up and wait a few years, like I did, and then get into the game. Or maybe other things happen and they don't return after their first match. There could be many reasons behind not returning, and we absolutely are not going to get everyone who shows an interest in the game to be as willing to invest their time and money into it as we here discussing this do. That's life.

 

My personal opinion remains: with the rules as they are, we are artificially reducing some people's ability to get into the sport at a price point which is available to them, simply for the sake of keeping things like they have been. Again, my opinion, but I find it more important to get people invested into the sport at any level than to miss out on those individuals--whose companionship and willingness to donate their time and efforts once a part of the community could be every bit as sincere as those who can or are willing to afford the more expensive firearms. 

 

Now that's my opinion, and I'm clearly outnumbered with the volume of responses on this thread. So be it. I've said my peace and I stand by my opinion, but I'm done arguing my point. 

 

Thank you all for your responses and opinions. Regardless of what it takes to get there, I know we all have a love for this game and want it to continue and prosper.

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Please don't take my response as dissmissing your opinion...I did not put my opinion in that manner Your opinion is valid...

That is why I like this ability to voice and discuss.

We all were new once...we also were 'uncomfortable' borrowing.

We shared very used, well used...I mean USED (and not really sports ready )long guns...each we paid $250 for.

New pistols...and at that, I saved for a year to purchase...we bought better used as we went along, selling our 'used' to new shooters.

With evetything, there is room for improvement.

And with everything, never will a group of say 50 ppl have the same view on what that will be.:blush:

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2 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

Please don't take my response as dissmissing your opinion...I did not put my opinion in that manner Your opinion is valid...

That is why I like this ability to voice and discuss.

We all were new once...we also were 'uncomfortable' borrowing.

We shared very used, well used...I mean USED (and not really sports ready )long guns...each we paid $250 for.

New pistols...and at that, I saved for a year to purchase...we bought better used as we went along, selling our 'used' to new shooters.

With evetything, there is room for improvement.

And with everything, never will a group of say 50 ppl have the same view on what that will be.:blush:

I didn't take yours--or others--responses like that at all! We all have different viewpoints and it's those varying experiences that make a community strong. On this, I just happen to appear to be in the minority. :)

Edited by OK Dirty Dan
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On 12/8/2020 at 7:00 PM, Okiepan said:

 

 

8 hours ago, Chert Rock Chuck said:

This is one of the reasons I feel it is wrong for vendors to be allowed to buy on the wire classifieds in order to mark up and resell on their market place account.

 I am of the opinion that the wire classifieds should be for shooters to buy, sell, and trade among themselves for the ability to acquire gear at less than retail cost.

 Most all pairs of desirable revolvers and shotguns that are posted for bargain prices are immediately snatched up by the same few folks that simply mark them up to the cost of a new stock gun or more. No bargains to be had when this happens. 
 

I am very new here. SASS #110754. Did you even know the numbers went that high? My husband, Fretless, and I have been visiting matches all around, within a three and a half hour drive from home, for about three months now.  We joined SASS and paid dues to join our local club. As of Saturday, we have now shot two matches and we're definitely hooked. We could not have done that without a lot of help and generosity of several Cowboys who have loaned us guns, ammo, leather, carts, and sold us ammo.

 

We have been purchasing firearms, and even reloading equipment, as we can and the quote above sums up our only complaint. Every time there is a rifle or shotgun on the Wire Classifieds that meets our needs and budget, it is snapped up by the same person/vendor within minutes of it being posted. This person then resells the guns at a much higher price on the Merchant forum. This is very frustrating and disheartening and has led us to give up on the Wire Classifieds altogether. Unfortunately, we've come to view this person that we don't even know as a money grabbing jerk that doesn't care about the community.

 

I don't know what the solution is, and as a newcomer, I don't feel like I have enough experience to make a suggestion. However, I thought you might like to know the viewpoint of a very new and frustrated member.

 

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Welcome @Fox Creek Stitcher  I'm not sure where you are in TN, if you live close to the clubs in your profile perhaps up close to NC/Y?


The Tennessee Mountain Marauders have a 5th Saturday match tomorrow.  It's actually just over the state line in Georgia, so it may be too far.   Come shoot with us if it's not to much of a drive.

 

https://mtnmarauders.com/

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17 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Welcome @Fox Creek Stitcher  I'm not sure where you are in TN, if you live close to the clubs in your profile perhaps up close to NC/Y?


The Tennessee Mountain Marauders have a 5th Saturday match tomorrow.  It's actually just over the state line in Georgia, so it may be too far.   Come shoot with us if it's not to much of a drive.

 

https://mtnmarauders.com/

Google says just over three and a half hours! I'll send you a PM.

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Advertising, I would have started CAS 10 years ago if I had known about it. One stop shopping. There are multiple online business that might have "most" of what you need to start, but not everything. There are a lot of accessories that you will want later, but the necessities should be easy to find and "package" deals would make it easier for beginners to navigate. I don't see any of the vendors (CAS vendors) packaging a "New Shooters Complete Kit" with a pair of single action pistols, lever action rifle, double barrel shotgun, dual holster rig with shotgun slide, and a basic gun cart. New shooters could buy the kit and go to a match the next day. Jus my 2 cent.

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19 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

Movement, challenging stages, lots of reactive targets.

The majority of our shooters are getting old. And movement is fast becoming less of a shooting ability. The inability to move fast and safe is a reality for some. Watching the other shooting venues, younger crowd, run and gun. There are lots of reactive targets used, Texas star, plate racks, poppers, hostage, and shooting trees.

Edited by irish ike, SASS #43615
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3 hours ago, Fox Creek Stitcher said:

We have been purchasing firearms, and even reloading equipment, as we can and the quote above sums up our only complaint. Every time there is a rifle or shotgun on the Wire Classifieds that meets our needs and budget, it is snapped up by the same person/vendor within minutes of it being posted. This person then resells the guns at a much higher price on the Merchant forum. This is very frustrating and disheartening and has led us to give up on the Wire Classifieds altogether. Unfortunately, we've come to view this person that we don't even know as a money grabbing jerk that doesn't care about the community.

 

I don't know what the solution is, and as a newcomer, I don't feel like I have enough experience to make a suggestion. However, I thought you might like to know the viewpoint of a very new and frustrated member.

 

you may have already tried this, not sure, but you can post "want to buy" in the classifieds for the things you are looking for.

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Here's some food for thought. I've been a member of a nationwide boating club for 28 years. United States Power Squadrons started in 1914. There are many local clubs throughout the US and many other countries where boaters have events, training classes, socials, etc.  

 

Membership has been in sharp decline since the late 1990's. It is now about 1/3 of what it was 25 years ago.  Over those 25 years, this organization (that once numbered 70,000 members in the US--about the same size as SASS) has struggled to "grow the organization" or "reduce the cost of entry" through many programs and changes. Trying to appeal to paddle boarders, kayakers, bass fishermen,  etc.  New membership drives, changing logos, even to the extent of changing the name recently to "America's Boating Club." 

 

Has it helped? No.  In fact, it diluted the original appeal of boat owners who kept larger boats at marinas and used them for cruises and other boating events and contests.  So much of the focus was lost  in trying to appeal to different groups that the one group who were the core supporters, were sidelined and given less attention. So they left to join local yacht clubs.  

 

Key to any organization is understanding your mission and focusing on that.  SASS is all about cowboy guns, cowboy attire and the camaraderie of the cowboy way. Stray too far from your mission and you'll risk losing your core membership who were attracted to the sport based on the mission. 

 

Would you rather have a highly active, dedicated and excited group of 30,000  or a loosely associated, inconsistent group of 40,000 or 50,000?

 

Oh, and if you think this shooting sport is expensive, check prices for any kind of cabin cruiser/sportfish/bass boat. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Well let me start but saying I'm new to this sport and love it so I might as well offer up some opinions.

1st. I think every club should have some kind of mentoring program. Someone who is a regular at that club and would be willing to take new people who show up under there wing per say. The new people hang with the mentor for the day and the mentor explains the stages , sweeps, scoring etc throughout the day. Then after the shoot the mentor takes a little time and explains to the new person all the different options they have to acquire the geer. A lot of new people may not know anything about gunbrooker or how to use it. They may have no idea where to even look for used guns. The mentor gets a phone # and it email and reaches out once and while to the new person inviting them back and seeing if they need any advice. The first shoot I went to i knew no one and it was a lot to take in and process. 

 

2nd. Even though the cas community is very generous about lending gear it does kinda feel weird to be asking people to use the gear for multiple shoots so I do believe if a club had some used leather and and maybe some lower end guns on site that new shooters could rent from the club then maybe people wouldn't feel like beggers. 

 

3rd. I do think it's about exposure and information. Getting as many new eyes on our sport as possible and educating them on all the different ways to acquire the minimum gear is key. From thrift stores to gunbrooker. We can't assume that everyone already knows this information.

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10 hours ago, OK Dirty Dan said:

My personal opinion remains: with the rules as they are, we are artificially reducing some people's ability to get into the sport at a price point which is available to them, simply for the sake of keeping things like they have been. Again, my opinion, but I find it more important to get people invested into the sport at any level than to miss out on those individuals--whose companionship and willingness to donate their time and efforts once a part of the community could be every bit as sincere as those who can or are willing to afford the more expensive firearms. 

 

Now that's my opinion, and I'm clearly outnumbered with the volume of responses on this thread. So be it. I've said my peace and I stand by my opinion, but I'm done arguing my point. 

 

Thank you all for your responses and opinions. Regardless of what it takes to get there, I know we all have a love for this game and want it to continue and prosper.

Dan, I don't have a problem with the base idea, heck I support that.  However, changing the rules to codify that will be interpreted as being sanctioned at the State, Regional, National, & International level.  What could be a compromise would be a simple statement that equipment requirements "may" be relaxed at the local level for non-SASS sanctioned events.

 

Talk about frustrating... I talked to a fellar and his wife about coming out and shooting with our club... for 3-4 years, they were on a budget, I tried and tried to explain about just coming out and watching, shooting what he had,  he didn't need any fancy outfit, (he already had the guns, just no "costume")...  He finally signed up for our annual shoot one year, I was very hopeful... about 2 weeks before the match I got a call from his wife, he'd passed away unexpectedly.  You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make 'em drink.   

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1 hour ago, Griff said:

changing the rules to codify that will be interpreted as being sanctioned at the State, Regional, National, & International level.  What could be a compromise would be a simple statement that equipment requirements "may" be relaxed at the local level for non-SASS sanctioned events.

+1

 

What about a sticky thread "Getting started in CAS: Tips for interested people" ?

 

And the same content or a link to that Wire thread on the SASSNET homepage? 

 

  • Don't buy anything (more), just come to a match, bring what you have 
  • Basic costuming is ok, no outlawed items
  • etc. 

 

Edited by Equanimous Phil
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On 1/28/2021 at 2:17 PM, Captain Bill Burt said:

I'm not opposed to growing the sport, far from it, but I do take a different view from many and perhaps from you.  I tend to look at things from a cost benefit standpoint, perhaps that has to do with my background in economics.  

 

There may well be a benefit in the form of new shooters if we reduce barriers to entry via a .22 category, or allowing only one pistol.  There may also be a cost in terms of the resulting changes in the sport leading to current shooters leaving the game.  I'm not saying that would happen, who knows, but the same is true of the changes being proposed, who knows if they will bring in new shooters.

 

As Tyrel mentioned, this is best handled at the local level, no need for rules changes. 

 

I'm not convinced that the cost of entry is a significant barrier to most shooters who might be interested in SASS anyway.   

 

I just looked on Gunbroker and in the midst of the current frenzy of gun buying there are still inexpensive guns available that are suitable for SASS.  I saw several Rossis and Marlins selling from anywhere between $600 and $800.   Stoeger shotguns going for $419, I saw a Pietta 1873 Great Western in .357 with a buy it now of $599 and a Bounty Hunter in .357 for $439.  A motivated shooter could buy all four required guns for less than $2,000. 

 

I follow Gun Broker every day for reasonably priced Cowboy Guns.  I take extra firearms to ever match for new shooters.

 

I have yet to see a reasonably priced Stoeger SXS in the last six months.  Used Stoegers are starting at $150 more than they cost new.  New Stoegers, and there are not very many listed at all, are stating at $250 or more of their starting cost of six months ago.  Several are in the $750 and up range.

 

There are also very few new Vaqueros listed and none at their actual cost.

 

Currently I am not aware of any BSS Shotguns.  There are two SKBs and one over priced rough one has been on there for several weeks.

 

Good luck finding a bargain on Gun Broker.

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I've shot CAS off and on for some 25 years now, circumstances permitting.  Along the way I've encountered a lot of interesting responses and comments from my sons and their friends.

 

1. people do not know what is the minimum w/r/t costuming, it is never clearly explained and they're not interested in B western (e.g.) they want to shoot and move.

 

2. It is perceived that the number of guns can be cost prohibitive, even when they're using $2K pistols and $2K AR's to play three gun, etc.

 

3. It seems to be boring: the 10/10/4 with minimal movement is though of as boringly repetitive - I know this is true of steel, however there is an equipment race in Steel that makes it fun like IPSC used to be fun in the 90's.  Sometimes the equipment race is more interesting because they can get all gaga over shooting 2.6 versus 2.7 second strings with their new super-dooper trigger set in their PCC.  (by the way - I'm fixing to use my NKJ tuned model 92 as an iron sighted PCC next month for S&G's)!

 

4. It can be embarresing to show up to a match and not understand the rules, and to not feel sometimes slighted by old ranch hands who have little patience for FNG's.

 

5. Stage design - perhaps a little more freedom to solve the stage your own way might help, allow shooting any targets in any order (although mandating ending with shotgun does help for timing - I know).  I know this might make it harder for the observers to observe, but the game is for the shooters fun, not the scorekeepers convenience.  It might also challenge the stage designers to make it different than the more predictable patterns we use now.  It also eliminates memorizing specific patterns and allows for discovery - folks will soon sort out what does and doesn't work, and surprises can happen.  This may be harder for some folks to accept, or do.

 

 

There are a few things that I think might help get more people interested in CAS.

 

After the ammo shortages end and the lockdowns are removed:

 

A. Local clubs really need to get the word out to all the other shooters at their club and at ranges that do not play CAS that the game exists and is being played.  Constantly remind shooters that the game is being played, every month at the safety briefings for other competitions; keep it in their conscious.

 

B. Local clubs should coordinate through their territorial governors a plan to put on public displays or open shooting demo's (rotating from club to club) where non-CAS folks can try shooting the guns and stages, albeit in a modified way, say without costume or leather.  Sort of a CAS fair for the uninitiated.  If needed charge a small fee to try it - say $5 per shooter, under 16 free.  Use .22's unless CAS folks want to offer up the use of their own center fire guns/ammo.  Perhaps use the fee to offset some of the ammo costs.

 

C. Prior to return to normal allow the use of .22's and any gauge shotguns for any and all shooters, even if they are limited to category-only wins and not overall match. 

 

D. New shooters clinics should be offered regularly, with signup in advance, to teach new shooters the rudimentary aspects needed to safely shoot at the next match (frankly there are few old timers who need reminders too), such as rifle and shotgun staging, handling pistols and holstering, loading and un-loading table ettiquite, etc.  This helps eliminate the feeling of being ignorant and intimidated. 

 

Just a few ideas, any or none of which might be useful, but I hope helpful for some to think about.

 

Shadow Catcher.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by ShadowCatcher
spellin correction
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15 hours ago, Griff said:

Dan, I don't have a problem with the base idea, heck I support that.  However, changing the rules to codify that will be interpreted as being sanctioned at the State, Regional, National, & International level.  What could be a compromise would be a simple statement that equipment requirements "may" be relaxed at the local level for non-SASS sanctioned events.

I think this would be a good compromise. Basically something in the rulebook stating that you do not HAVE to have the sanctioned gear to come out and participate at local matches. People would find this out if they come out, but as others have noted in this thread, getting them out the first time is the real trick. 

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13 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

...And the same content or a link to that Wire thread on the SASSNET homepage? 

I think this is a big one right here. Revamp the homepage of SASS, and have callouts to the new shooter front and center. That homepage is the number one place where we need to both catch the interest of the new shooter, and give them all the information they'd need in order to feel comfortable and motivated to show up for their first match. With the mess the homepage is now, I think many would-be shooters could be easily confused. As sad as it may sound, we have well less than one minute to get the hooks into that first-time website visitor, and I don't think the current homepage does that well enough.

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Your Item 4 I haven't clue what you said. Not everyone knows what acronyms mean.

 

What our club has done.

Advertised on TV

Advertised on Radio

Went to local gun shows and paid for a table. 

Sat outside Cabella's and Sportsmans.

Posted flyers at ranges, sporting goods stores, and community bulletin boards.

Started a web page

Set up a Facebook page.

We have a mentorship program

We've done cops and cowboys shoot.

 

The result has been basically no appreciable difference in membership. We gain one, we loose one.

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I shoot USPSA and other modern shooting sports and there are still a lot of folks in those disciplines who come out and shoot their first match who are very excited and still never show up again. Or they show up for a couple matches and then disappear.  It's not just the money. They think they're going to be the next hot shooter and learn it is going to take them years to get good enough to challenge the top shooters so they quit. Or they find out it's going to take a lot of their time to practice, learn to reload (most top shooters in other sports also reload) and to keep their guns running. Or their spouse tells them that they aren't going to spend time and money shooting matches. 

 

I really don't think dropping one gun or any other change is going to make a huge difference in retaining new shooters.

 

Face it we are a group of renegades, rebels and rogues and most of us like it that way. I don't think we're going to appeal to the folks who want to wear Lycra, zip through fault lines and shoot space guns. Or the ones who own a semi auto and want to come to a USPSA match once a month for practice. It's a numbers game. The more people we can get to come out and shoot a match the more crazy folk like us we're going to find who are willing to invest their gold and their time into having a great time making smoke and noise. We all have to be ambassadors of he sport and invite people we think might be interested to come out to a match and once they are there we need to make them feel welcomed and let them know that if they are committed we'll do everything reasonable to help them get involved.

 

Just my two cents.

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My SASS badge number dates back to 1998.  Perspective?

 

When was the last time you saw a serious ad in a gun magazine or a popup in an online forum about SASS/CAS?

 
If the home office depends on the members and clubs to “grow the game”, it’s going to die.  Maybe dues need to be increased to support advertising.  Some will scream. Fine. Put in your ear plugs and let them scream.

 

An organization that invested in what turned out to be questionable property in the New Mexico desert, and expects me to dedicate thousands of dollars and a week + of travel time to support their championship match, needs to re-evaluate priorities.
 

I love cowboy action shooting, cowboy action shooters, cowboy guns.  I wish SASS loved me as much.

 

 

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I think @J-BAR #18287 has a good point, we are going to need to spend money to advertise and let people know that we are here. It may need another $10 a year or so. BTW, @Cholla's piece in Guns was a great bit of exposure for us.

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On 1/28/2021 at 2:31 PM, Rye Miles #13621 said:

The less westerns that are being made is going to affect the interest especially among young shooters. The young crowd is not where we need to focus we need to focus con shooters in their 40’s and 50’s and above. I talk to a lot of shooters in that age group that have interest in this sport. I think that’s where the future of SASS is,

 

On 1/28/2021 at 6:17 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

CONSIDER:  There are NO barriers to entry.  Anybody can play.  It's actually simple.  The glorification of the era(s) we portray is DEAD.  No Saturday Matinee of "B" westerns.  No real dearth of "Big Movies."  No Prime Time Wester themed programming.  No Saturday Morning TV serials for Kids.  The folks that grew up with that entertainment are now mostly "Old" folks and are not being replaced.

 

This is the age of instant gratification.  Electronic Games Rule.  First Person Shooter with a gaming console or a Big Screen and a controller.

 

It has nothing to do with the Stages.  Nothing to do with Cost.  Nothing to do with 10 10 4.  It's called a total lack of interest.  the game is slowly dying.  Kicking and Scratching and screaming, but . . . . dying.  Since we cannot set the entertainment clock and way of life back 60 - 70 years, we can't fix it.  Sad. 

Maybe we should check with all the local Model T clubs and see how they recruit new members.

On 1/29/2021 at 1:27 AM, Chert Rock Chuck said:

This is one of the reasons I feel it is wrong for vendors to be allowed to buy on the wire classifieds in order to mark up and resell on their market place account.

 I am of the opinion that the wire classifieds should be for shooters to buy, sell, and trade among themselves for the ability to acquire gear at less than retail cost.

 Most all pairs of desirable revolvers and shotguns that are posted for bargain prices are immediately snatched up by the same few folks that simply mark them up to the cost of a new stock gun or more. No bargains to be had when this happens. 
 

I'm of the same opinion. I understand and support the free market model, but I'm thinking there's a problem when folks in the classifieds are asking that their WTB ads be replied to by private message only or others that say they won't sell to merchants. I know of one hombre here that had three sets of guns poached out of his WTB ad.

I've heard you can set notifications for keywords or such so you have just as much chance as the guy who responds to an ad in 2 minutes. Yeah, right. I'm pretty sure my boss won't mind putting my a$$ chewing on hold so I can log in to the wire, see that pair of used Vaqueros I've been looking for at a decent price and then type my "I'll take it" reply in.

Yanno he's cool that way.

There's going to be unintended consequences that we'll all suffer.

 

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I dont think anyone gets interested in CAS who has no gun knowledge or personal guns already.
I found SASS because I purchased an Uberti 45colt and fund it while doing some googling about the gun
I went to a local match, where I was given the opportunity to try it out.
I did not have funds to purchase more equipment-so, I sold some of my other guns to get more equipment.
What I am saying is-if someone wants in-they will make the necessary sacrifices to get in. Can't cry "oh I cant afford it" when you're sitting on a vault full of stuff you're not using-or not even a vault full..I had a mauser an enfield  a m1 knock off and a mosin that I loved and invested in (parts,dies,etc) but sold so I could get into the game. Basically, I sold all my other guns to get into SASS.
Im "poor" not retired, have a family-and found a way in.
I dont think its a money factor, I dont think its an age factor, a time factor.....I believe its an exposure factor.
20 + years of messing with guns and I had never heard of CAS or SASS(whatever abv you wanna use).  I just happened to stumble on it because I bought a 45 colt revolver on a whim, and googled the revolver

 

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There is a lot of good stuff on this thread. Doc Shapiro and Lunger Dan make some real good points. Without rehashing their posts, I began thinking why and when I started looking at CAS. I caught a blurb about it on some shooting sports show, and that was it. Just filed away on a list of things to check out.

 

And that was all the exposure I got.

 

I am not a marketing guy, and not looking for that job. Movie westerns are a rarity these days. But western TV shows, like Yellowstone or Longmire, although not on network TV, have good followings that are growing. No, not suggesting SASS buy commercial air time. But shows have writers and writers need material for plots.

 

Longmire is gone, but Kevin Costner's ranch hands in Yellowstone could meet at a cowboy match to plan their next adventure. Confront a deadbeat at the unloading table about a bad deal? Granted they would be scenes no longer than two minutes, but how many folks would see that? And maybe look up SASS? Nothing to lose.

 

Everybody knows somebody somewhere through other contacts. It would be easy for a script writer to weave a cowboy match into a plot line.

 

So do we do it individually or email suggestions up the chain to SASS leadership?

 

Just throwing this out for discussion.

 

Thanks for your time.

 

LDD

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We are the generation that grew up watching John Wayne, Randolph Scott, Joel McCrea, etc. The young shooters today are of a generation that grew up watching the Die Hard and John Wick series. 25 years ago when I shot IPSC we reloaded with lead bullets, todays shooters for the vast majority only use factory ammo because with all their other play toys they can't fit reloading into their schedules. Its not cost, a new IPSC style race gun can cost up the $3,000.00, almost the cost of 2 brand new Ruger Vaqueros (in Canada). A stock Winchester/Mirku M73 up here is $1,750.00, an AR 15 raced up is anywhere from $2,000- $5,000 depending on the bells and whistles that you choose. A Stoegar SxS Coach gun is about $550.00 up here, a fast shooting Benelli in semi auto carrying about 12 rounds will run you $2,000- $3,000. Its not the money. Many of us go far out of our way trying encourage new shooters, and we shouldn't stop trying but we need to accept that the new generation has a different vision of shooting than we do.

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 " 25 years ago when I shot IPSC we reloaded with lead bullets, todays shooters for the vast majority only use factory ammo because with all their other play toys they can't fit reloading into their schedules"

 

i don't  know if IPSC in Canada is that much different from USPSA here in the US but equipment surveys show around 90% shooting reloaded ammo.

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When I shot IPSC and 3Gun, most of the other shooters [and myself] all reloaded. Very few of the serious ones couldn't afford not to.

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1 hour ago, DeaconKC said:

When I shot IPSC and 3Gun, most of the other shooters [and myself] all reloaded. Very few of the serious ones couldn't afford not to.

The guys i know who shoot ipsc and 3 gun are the ones who introduced me to reloading in the first place.  I was fresh out of college with a lot of school debt and wanted to shoot more.  Ironically,  they also helped steer me to. 357 magnum as a way to keep my reloading costs down and multigun logistics simple even though I don't think they had any .357's said were running souped up 38 super race guns...  after I was hooked on .357, I started thinking about shooting disciplines that featured revolvers and I think that's how I stumbled across some CAS vids online... probably about 10 years ago... 

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Hi all, A couple thoughts on the subject. Basically pivots around making it interesting and exposing people who are already shooters to our Cowboy Action guns n gear. 

 
 
 
I enjoy Cowboy Action and have brought 9 or 10 new shooters to SASS events. I usually do dry fire practice in front of a large projection a video that I've taken from SASS matches. I have videos of slow, medium and fast shooters. Having to load, lever and reload like we do and then dry firing in sync with the video (watching the same targets as the video-shooter) has made it easy for people to get comfortable and then eager to go to a match. However, they are not all active shooters. One friend bought a number of the guns but still doesn't attend regularly. I like the guns gear and gang myself and will likely attend regularly for a long time. However, I'm down to one SASS match a month with mainly just my 'home posse'
I've started going to 3 Gun, IDPA, USPSA and Steel Challenge events every weekend instead of additional SASS matches because I like the shooting action. If SASS matches were as engaging I might do more of them. I have used SASS guns in 'modern events'. You may want to try it also. It will be fun and people will see guns that they are remarkably unfamiliar with. Plan on bringing extra ammo because you will have people that will love to try your lever actions, single actions and wait till you see how surprised they are at how fast you can run those old shotguns! A popular and expanding category in Steel Challenge, IDPA and USPSA is PCC - pistol caliber carbines. Hey! We got those! I can't quite run my lever action on pace with a 9mm PCC with a red dot - but it doesn't mean I didn't try. I have since bought a simple rail and quick detach red dot for my Marlin - I'll be back! Just think of the Trash Talk they will have to endure if they don't beat this senior with a 45. Ha! Steel Challenge is pretty simple and is something I would recommend trying with single actions and lever guns. The idea of several Cowboys showing up as a posse at one of these matches would be fun. They re-use a number of stages and you can see those stages online and set them up and practice them as a posse an advice. People will find it interesting when you compete with SASS guns and they will approach you. Then you find out that they may have some guns they could use and an interest as well. I'm doing that where I shoot. We'll see how it goes. I practice reloading Vaqueros so I can blend in to Steel Challenge (5 steel targets on the buzzer, repeat 4 more times per stage, score is add up best 4 runs. Then, next stage. It's something to try with the cowboy guns - but don't expect big targets up close. Think Blackhawk vs Vaqueros perhaps) Some of these events let you double register so I can use a modern red dot gun and then a single action. (Too bad I haven't loaded Holy Black. YeeHaw! LOL. Next step is planning stages that are compatible with both styles of guns and shooters - sort of like the cops and cowboys events. What with the ammo shortages, now is the time to have people run stages with reduced round counts. 3 Gun stages that used to have people emptying 30 round magazines in each of the rifle, pistol and shotgun are now sensible to do with less ammo. I think limiting them to just 10 rifle rounds doesn't put us at much of a disadvantage (if any). Pistol magazines loaded to 5 would be a parallel. When I use SASS guns at these events there are always people interested. 
As regards young shooters and the cost of Entry - I don't see that as an issue with people who shoot. They are spending lots of money on guns gear and ammo. Lots. A 3 Gun or USPSA event will go through more than twice as much ammo as a SASS match. The events are generally more challenging and interesting though. Shooting a lined up row of big steel targets from 5 yards wouldn't 'hook' many of them. Shooting a lined up row of rifle targets 12 yards away wouldn't stimulate a durable interest. 
Oh well…it's what we do. The guns, gear and people are what make it fun so we enjoy ourselves. There are plenty among us that are not going to want to keep up with the run and gun style that would engage those shooters. However, I expect that interacting with them and exposing them to some of these guns is going to end up with some of them coming down the road to our Cowboy Action events. 
After they see you run your pistols and you load up your revolver for them to try just remember not to tell them that they have to cock it to fire each round. HeHe! Watch them tug on that trigger, flinch and then that moment of recognition in their eye when they realize how fast you just went and… what? You were cocking every single round?! Lol. 
 
Other thoughts to make entry easier;
Team Up. Let a new shooter do a couple stages for the SASS shooter. Maybe let two new shooters take turn, half the stages each, to save ammo (and time).
For experienced SASS shooters how about a full power category? 
Also, how about a category or scoring angle for shooting the rifle targets with the revolvers? (For that matter, how about having rifle target at more than 30ft?) 
At one stage at the Eas' Dern Renegades the same stage was shot a second time but with the line pulled back 5 yards. A good touch. 
Sorry for the length. See ya round. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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