Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Mustang Gregg

Concerns of target ownership/damage/replacement

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

I just composed a long post on this subject and it disappeared.

Is the Wire broken?

 

Anyway, I personally own 100% of the targets, stands, props, KD rack, etc, etc that our SASS club uses.

Our SASS club has rented a range on Izaak Walton League for 3 years now for our monthly shoots.

My targets are all AR400 (and softer steels) and they are getting pretty beat.  They should really be replaced.

 

However our club does not have the funds to replace any targets.  All expenses and repairs have been personally funded by ME.

In fact I have paid those bills myself to the tune of almost $2000.  Our club's bank account could not nearly pay me back.

 

I do not wish to kill off our club as we have several shooters who drive almost 200 miles (one way) to shoot.

I feel that closing down would really be a slap in the face to our faithful SASS shooters.

And Nebraska has only 3 SASS outfits these days.

But I need to figure out something before it is time to send our 2021 SASS affiliation fee.

 

I would like to get some ideas on what we should or could do.

 

Respectfully much obliged,

Mustang Gregg

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Mustang Gregg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Howdy MG.

Do you particularly want to own all the targets OR are you basically the only one in position to buy them?

 

If you would prefer the club to buy them, the members could consider an appropriate amount of their dues or monthly

fees to help with the cost.

If the club decides to increase Monthly fees, then everyone, club members AND visitors, will be helping to buy the new steel.

 

Just a thought.

 

I sent you a PM.

 

..........Widder

 

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Howdy, Widowmaker, ol' pal.

 

I do own ALL of the existing targets.  And I do not wish to purchase any more. 

They already are into me by almost $2K of expenses of welding, paint ink, paper, wood, etc.

The club has only $400 in the account.  There are only 5 members to get dues from.

We pay $10.00 to the Ike's for each shooter on the line, so we charge a $15.00 entry fee to even try to come out.

 

Thanks,

Mustang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Fund raiser? 

 

Our club put on a few fund raising events for range funds and they were reasonably successful. We had "Turkey Shoots" where the shooters paid a fee for a target to shoot with a set number of shots (five pistol or five rifle or one shotgun, (we provided the shotgun shell to make everything even), whatever they wanted to shoot) at a cross on a paper target a good distance away. The distance added an element of chance to the competition. We set the number of shooters/targets required for each prize and provided a gift certificate from a local supermarket as the "turkey".

 

We also had a member volunteer to provide a rib dinner for a price that covered the cost of the food and a decent profit. 

 

It did not take too many shooters to pony up $5 or $10 per target and the rib dinner to make a decent sum of money for targets and range improvements. 

 

BTW - The turkey shoot was open to all, not just club members. We put up flyers around the range and passed the word as best we could.

Edited by Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Several ways for you to avoid or get reimbursed the upkeep on targets.

 

Sell targets to the club.  All maintenance becomes their concern.  Might bankrupt club.

Rent targets to the club.  Rental fee should include expected level of maintenance costs, and could be adjusted annually.

Donate targets to the club.  All maintenance becomes their concern.  Might hurt your wallet and feelings.

 

Bill club for direct maintenance costs incurred (perhaps most difficult to determine cleanly if you do the maintenance).  Puts club "over the barrel" on when is a bill coming, and how much will it be, making things hard to plan for on the club's match fees.

 

I'd think you have to "eat" the costs incurred so far,  and the easiest/cleanest path forward is to establish an annual rental fee.   Realize this may turn political or personal very quickly if not handled "equitably."  You have established a precedent of giving them use of targets, and that may be hard to change.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The club (Lincoln Area Regulators) can't afford to buy my beat-up targets, let alone new ones that are needed.

Izaak Walton's will not buy us any targets as they bought a $2100 20-footer Sea Land container for our storage.

They feel that they were already too generous.

 

The Nebraska Gambling Commission said that we are not eligible to hold a raffle as we are not a charity nor incorporated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Maybe I didn't say it above, but all of the 50+ targets that they use are my own personal ones.

The club owns NONE.  The Ike's do not own any either.

 

THANK YOU FOR THE IDEAS.  KEEP SENDING THEM!

Edited by Mustang Gregg
typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, you said that in initial post:

 

Quote

I personally own 100% of the targets, stands, props, KD rack,

 

You know the current situation better than we do about what is feasible.   There probably is no "magic bullet" or maintenance plan, either.    It takes working with the folks who have the most to benefit (or most to lose) from keeping the targets maintained.  

 

And, if you continue to own the steel, you should at least have an agreement with the club about how you can bring the use of the steel to an end with an appropriate deadline.  Otherwise your heirs may stand to lose all the value of the targets if you should pass.   All of these loose ends can often mean hard feelings after a handshake deal has been in place for many years.

 

Good luck, GJ

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

You are absolutely correct on that, GJ. 

THANKS, PARD!

 

I (we) do need to make the decision soon. 

Our last 2020 match will be 03 October and I recollect that the SASS affiliation fee is due about then too.

Edited by Mustang Gregg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mustang Gregg said:

Howdy, Widowmaker, ol' pal.

 

I do own ALL of the existing targets.  And I do not wish to purchase any more. 

They already are into me by almost $2K of expenses of welding, paint ink, paper, wood, etc.

The club has only $400 in the account.  There are only 5 members to get dues from.

We pay $10.00 to the Ike's for each shooter on the line, so we charge a $15.00 entry fee to even try to come out.

 

Thanks,

Mustang

Know how you feel, been there myself, and you're probably got plenty cowboys in the same boat.

You can kiss the $2000 away, and if you need new targets to replace the old ones, you've really have few options but to increase your 

shoot fee to say $20.00 each and put the money aside to purchase new ones.

Also as all the shooters shoot at the targets, maybe make it plain to them they're getting dangerous and need to be replaced, and take the hat around

for donations, after all they're all using them.

And the extra amount put it down as a "target maintenance fee"

We have that at a number of clubs here, they don't last forever.

Good luck MG

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the next few matches.

Explain what is going on.

Ask for donations to replace. Might not get it all.

But enough to replace some.

Then see about selling the old ones. Some will buy to have

at a home range for practice.

 

Set up a stage for them to shoot after the match.

Make it a fun one. $5 to shoot it. All money goes for targets.

Every little bit adds up.

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Run a 50-50 at every match with the proceeds going to the "target fund".  It may not bring in much each time, but every little bit helps and sometimes the winner donates the winnings back.
Explain the situation to all the shooters and have a donation container available at matches for those that can contribute.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mustang Gregg,

 

If Nebraska has only three SASS clubs and people are willing to do a 400 mile round trip to shoot, I'd consider talking to all of your shooters about a target fund donation. If you have 10 to 20 shooters that come out ask for a $100 donation. Make the new targets the property of the club. Then consider increasing the shooting fees to start building a target fund for the future. Have two fees, $15 for those who invested, $20 for those who chose not too. Give those who invested a "club membership" for a year. Then start a yearly membership for 2021. I think $50-100 is fair. That money will help build the clubs bank account.

 

At Diamond Dick's in California we have two different shooting fees, members and non members, there's a $5 dollar difference, $12 and $17. Several neighboring clubs are $15 and $20. The members pay $100 a year for the "membership", the only thing a member receives over a non member is a reduced shooting fee. 

 

Spell it all out clearly so people understand that the club is in fear of closing and this is what needs to happen. Explain the new fees and that the targets will be the clubs property. If you don't get donations maybe that's a sign that folks aren't interested in being "vested" in the club's future and you should then start considering your game plan for 2021?

 

Make the announcement as a club, not an individual with a vested interest in the current targets. I think if it's explained properly, you'll have a good response and receive monies to move forward on buying new targets.

 

Tully

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you won't want to hear this but explain that need of targets and little money in the bank you will have to stop being a SASS club till the targets are replaced.  This doesn't stop you from holding your matches though.  Increase your fee to shoot (don't like this) but you will lose some shooters unless the fee is higher at other clubs.  You could ask for grants from some sporting organizations.  Advertise (flyers) in shops, set some signs on state right of way just before Wal-Mart and other big box stores.   

 

As small as your club is it sounds like it will be hard to get enough money to replace your targets from just them.  You might do a buy a target where a person pays for one target, their name is put on target, when they shoot that target is always a hit even if the bullet misses ringing the target, i.e. a no miss target for them.  They have to order steel to club specs i.e. AR550, AR500, and etc. Club sets size and thickness.  Maybe several people go together buy a sheet and one of your members could cut it into targets.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Reach out to Hornady. They are very supportive of shooting sports, and they may help out some in exchange for a banner being put up at matches, especially since you are a Nebraska club

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Local Friends of the NRA may help you out. Find the sheets of AR500 and bring them over to Cheyenne. I'll cut them on my plasma table for free. Squares, diamonds, and rectangles give you the best bang for the buck, no wasted material. 

  • Like 9
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If your club is only bringing in a dozen folks / match...without a reasonably successful annual, then perhaps your club isn't viable.

 

Phantom

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 We had the same problem in NJ at a club where the SASS shoots never managed to attract more than 12-15 shooters.  The SASS club owned the targets, but they were stored in the trailers of the club who owned the property.   Because there were so few shooters, the club dropped its affiliation with SASS a few years ago.   The matches continue, but with the passing of the TG, the number of shooters has dwindled and the parent club, I believe, now has taken over ownership of the targets.

 

I notice that you are involved with two clubs, which appear to be about 40 miles apart from each other.  One shows around 14-15 shooters at the scheduled matches, but the other club doesn't seem to post scores so I can't see how many shooters attend monthly shoots.  Perhaps you might consider a 2 or 3 day match hosted by both clubs, with the proceeds going to a "target" fund?  Partly, the resolution of this issue depends on the members and"visiting" shooters.  If all involved feel it is worthwhile to continue SASS shoots, they will have to pony up.   I wonder if there is an insurance issue as well.  If the targets have deteriorated and may reach the point that they pose a danger of ricochets, will insurance cover any property damage or physical injury if they continue to be used?  

 

Unfortunately, many clubs are run by one or two or three dedicated individuals and when they decide to move on, don't want the pressure, etc. the clubs can, and have, disappeared.  Keeping the clubs going is a collective effort, at least where finances are concerned.   There doesn't appear to be a way around the issue that more money is required to keep the club shoots going.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

in a slightly different direction:

 

can you up the number of matches you hold at that range?

 

have some for .22s, modern guns, something other than cowboy hardware?

 

shot cowboy stages with modern firearms?

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

PLUS ONE too Phantom

 

In my neck of the woods, I use to be able to shoot every weekend and drive not more than 50 miles to each.  ALL but one of those clubs have withered on the vine.  One (the other one) is down to 9 shooters being a "good" day.  It's sad.  But, some organizations just cease to be viable.  It's probably time to consider picking up your toys and going home.  Scrap prices are still pretty good.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll be the liability voice. We had AR400 targets. Enough to set up 12 stages for our annual. They got bent and pitted after years of use. We took the mounts off and flipped them so they'd bend back. It still ended up with lead splatter going everywhere. People were getting hit all the time. We are a larger club so we had the funds to replace all the targets over 3 years.  Splatter went down considerably.

SO unless you have a viable way of replacing the targets, I'd stop using them and tell the club. 'we need new targets or we can't shoot anymore'. Reality is tough.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I'm assuming you were ok with providing the targets, stands, etc. originally (or at least on board with idea)

So lets start on the condition that you never thought you would be reimbursed for said targets - you just want to safely keep the club alive and functioning.

(and going off your OP - it seems your concern is more about replacing the current targets than recovering funds)

 

So...

You have a dozen shooters (give or take) at a monthly -  charging $15 per with $10 per head going to the range.

So how do we purchase new targets on a monthly income of $60?

 

Let's look at your target needs - 12 shooters in ONE posse

(means only a need of ONE bays worth of targets {yes, it will limit arrays and may require target resets during a match - but better than closing down})

 

You can creatively set a single stage (in multiple different arrays with as few as 8 plates)

You already have stands (I assume) so we are only talking about plate replacement.

And you may be able to repurpose some existing plates for  while - so full replacement may not be required.

 

So...

A single 4x8 sheet of AR500 - will yield eight 24x24 plates.

Shotgun targets can be repurposed AR400 plates or replaced with a couple boxes of clay pigeons - used singly as static targets.

 

Or you can go smaller plates (simply keeping the club safe and viable, remember?) {just set them closer}

8x8 AR500 from Midway are only $29/ per

 

Sell your "Overly" damaged plates for scrap - purchase what you can (even if smaller) with those funds.

Raise match fees to $20 for a 100% increase in funds

Seek out local sponsors for matches or targets (is there a steel supplier anywhere near?  Might be able to give you a deal or sponsorship or minimally repurpose their scrap for you)

Local gun shops might sell you clay pigeons at cost or sponsor.

A local gas station or convenience store might provide water or a few funds (especially if a lot of the cowboys stop there regularly for soda or coffee before or after the match)

Any local cafe your shooters frequent after the matches?

 

We are simply looking for funding - don't care where it comes from.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To get around the state, don't put Raffle on the tickets but put Donation on it. Sell as a normal raffle verbally and state has no say so over donations. I have been in charge of several organizations and I've never been afraid to ask those people to pony up extra funds for their own behalf if it is needed. A simple fire side chat with everyone is always the best course of action. Mr. Mustang, you are always welcome to come to Virginia and spend your money for my benefit anytime.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

One of the things we do to raise funds for targets and club owned tools is called "buy a miss".

We sell them for $1.00 each.

You can buy as many as you want  before the match starts and they are good for that match only.

No carry over. This is only for monthly matches.

Nobody is out much at each match but you will be surprised how it builds up.

There is no requirement to buy any, it's all up to the shooter.

It is a dedicated fund on our treasures report and may only used for targets .

 

Marshal Stone

 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Marshal Stone, SASS #53366 said:

 

One of the things we do to raise funds for targets and club owned tools is called "buy a miss".

We sell them for $1.00 each.

You can buy as many as you want  before the match starts and they are good for that match only.

No carry over. This is only for monthly matches.

Nobody is out much at each match but you will be surprised how it builds up.

There is no requirement to buy any, it's all up to the shooter.

It is a dedicated fund on our treasures report and may only used for targets .

 

Marshal Stone

 

Wouldn't it be better to have a "Fund Raising" method that doesn't destroy the competition side of our game?

 

Just askin...

 

Phantom

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I have seen this done at a club in Montana, where each club member bought 2 targets and then donated them to the club. This could be extended to non club members as well.

 

The NRA Grant request is also a great idea, Assassin is to my memory a great grant writer, perhaps he could guide you on this. Your state Fish and Game dept. also have Pitman-Robertson funds that you might be able to apply for.

 

Lastly, if there are clubs that are defunct, perhaps they would sell at a great price or consider them a loan to YOUR club. This worked very well when West Yellowstone and Grassy Butte closed up.

 

Hope you find a good solution.......

 

Bugler

Edited by Bugler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

this is hitting a sore spot for me so ill refrain from saying much , you need to get reimbursed and they need to build a fund for replacement as required , sooner you set that up the better , 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Anvil Al #59168 said:

At the next few matches.

Explain what is going on.

Ask for donations to replace. Might not get it all.

But enough to replace some.

Then see about selling the old ones. Some will buy to have

at a home range for practice.

 

Set up a stage for them to shoot after the match.

Make it a fun one. $5 to shoot it. All money goes for targets.

Every little bit adds up.

 

 

I could try that.

Our club only has $400 and just two matches left in 2020 before we have to pay the SASS re-up fee..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, watab kid said:

this is hitting a sore spot for me so ill refrain from saying much , you need to get reimbursed and they need to build a fund for replacement as required , sooner you set that up the better , 

Why?

 

Just consider them a donation and move on...many have done this.

 

Phantom

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Tully Mars said:

Mustang Gregg,

 

If Nebraska has only three SASS clubs and people are willing to do a 400 mile round trip to shoot, I'd consider talking to all of your shooters about a target fund donation. If you have 10 to 20 shooters that come out ask for a $100 donation. Make the new targets the property of the club. Then consider increasing the shooting fees to start building a target fund for the future. Have two fees, $15 for those who invested, $20 for those who chose not too. Give those who invested a "club membership" for a year. Then start a yearly membership for 2021. I think $50-100 is fair. That money will help build the clubs bank account.

 

At Diamond Dick's in California we have two different shooting fees, members and non members, there's a $5 dollar difference, $12 and $17. Several neighboring clubs are $15 and $20. The members pay $100 a year for the "membership", the only thing a member receives over a non member is a reduced shooting fee. 

 

Spell it all out clearly so people understand that the club is in fear of closing and this is what needs to happen. Explain the new fees and that the targets will be the clubs property. If you don't get donations maybe that's a sign that folks aren't interested in being "vested" in the club's future and you should then start considering your game plan for 2021?

 

Make the announcement as a club, not an individual with a vested interest in the current targets. I think if it's explained properly, you'll have a good response and receive monies to move forward on buying new targets.

 

Tully

Tully, thanks for the tips. 

Actually we only have 20 shooters on a good day.  Usually only 13 maybe.  Not many to get funds from.

We only have two matches left for this year.  Only one shoot per month from April to October.

And my work schedule is now taking up mort of my Saturdays.

Still working on it,

Mustang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Assassin said:

Local Friends of the NRA may help you out. Find the sheets of AR500 and bring them over to Cheyenne. I'll cut them on my plasma table for free. Squares, diamonds, and rectangles give you the best bang for the buck, no wasted material. 

Assassin:

Much obliged for the offer.  I appreciate that.Actually I have a plasma table available here.

But we cannot afford a single sheet of AR500, let alone drive to Cheyenne.

I'll see if I can contact Friends of the NRA.  

i think the local high school got a nice Western trap through them.

thanks for the offer, Pard.

Mustang

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If your club is only bringing in a dozen folks / match...without a reasonably successful annual, then perhaps your club isn't viable.

 

Phantom

I'm afraid you are right, Sir.  And we have no place to hold an annual at the Ike's range at this time.

I have put a lot into it for the last 3 years.

Damned disappointing.

Much obliged,

MG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

in a slightly different direction:

 

can you up the number of matches you hold at that range?

 

have some for .22s, modern guns, something other than cowboy hardware?

 

shot cowboy stages with modern firearms?

 

 

No, sorry, but we can't bring the number of matches up.

I just cannot take anymore time away from my business to devote to the outfit.

When I am gone, the gun shop is closed...No employees.

I am hurting right now with just one match per month.  And the range is 60 miles from my place.

And I have NOT taken time to go to any annual shoots for over a year.

Many thanks, Cheyenne!

MG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I'll be the liability voice. We had AR400 targets. Enough to set up 12 stages for our annual. They got bent and pitted after years of use. We took the mounts off and flipped them so they'd bend back. It still ended up with lead splatter going everywhere. People were getting hit all the time. We are a larger club so we had the funds to replace all the targets over 3 years.  Splatter went down considerably.

SO unless you have a viable way of replacing the targets, I'd stop using them and tell the club. 'we need new targets or we can't shoot anymore'. Reality is tough.

Irish,

There is iron in your words...Sorry, bad pun.

That is exactly right about beat up steel....SAFETY HAZARD!

The owning club (range) has offered me some used 3/8" steel from a demoed water tower

But I am afraid that that stuff is probably on the "wrong side" of mild steel.

And it has an epoxy paint coating on one side of it.

 

I like your idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.