Spirit of the Game Penalty

[Chicken George*]

A stage called for a double tap Nevada sweep starting on the middle target. Shooter shot the revolvers correctly and then started the rifle with 3 shots on the middle target. They realized they messed up but their mind went blank and didn't know how to continue. They dumped the rest of the rifle rounds on the right target. One of the spotters wanted to call a Spirit of the Game penalty besides the obvious P but was overruled. 

 

Later I was talking about it with another shooter. They said someone once tried to give them the Spirit of the Game penalty because they usually just tell the TO that they are ready rather than say the line. 

 

This got me wondering when this penalty should be given. I know what the handbook says but I would like some examples. If you have seen it given, what did they do? 

 

It seems like one of those rules that could be pushed on for lots of things. I've bumped into a few shooters who try to give out as many penalties as possible. I hope this one doesn't get used by them other than how the penalty was intended. In my opinion, this penalty involves knowing the shooter's intent which is tough to judge. Therefore, the penalty shouldn't be given on the first offense. If they continue to do it after they have had a warning, then you would know their intent. Not sure if my opinion is correct and would like to hear from those who know. 

[Sheriff Langston]

As a relatively new shooter I have on more than one occasion shot targets out of order.  It can be attributed to nerves or brain blackouts.  We older folks are not as sharp as we used to be.

 

In all cases I was given a procedural which is absolutely appropriate in my opinion.  I gained no advantage by screwing up.

 

If given a spirit of the game penalty,  it would only have added to my embarrassment since the spirit is why we are all here, I believe.

 

Sheriff Langston.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Some 15 years ago we were shooting a match and I was the TO. The stage called for the shooter to shoot their pistol under the fence rail, from the hip so to speak. Two of the shooters, very good shooters, were preparing to go to EOT. They stated they did not want to follow the instructions as they were practicing for the big match. I told them if they brought the pistol up and fired at the targets I would issue the SOG. Neither cared, both failed to follow the instructions and both were given the SOG call. No big deal, we're still friends today.

[Sheriff Langston]

6 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Some 15 years ago we were shooting a match and I was the TO. The stage called for the shooter to shoot their pistol under the fence rail, from the hip so to speak. Two of the shooters, very good shooters, were preparing to go to EOT. They stated they did not want to follow the instructions as they were practicing for the big match. I told them if they brought the pistol up and fired at the targets I would issue the SOG. Neither cared, both failed to follow the instructions and both were given the SOG call. No big deal, we're still friends today.

 

I agree.  If the stage instructions are blatantly ignored because a shooter "does not like them" or for a perceived advantage, an SOG is absolutely appropriate.  Maybe even Match DQ.  

 

None of us like everything, but as a group we need to follow a common consensus.  My 10 cents.

 

Sheriff Langston

[Marauder SASS #13056]

20 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Some 15 years ago we were shooting a match and I was the TO. The stage called for the shooter to shoot their pistol under the fence rail, from the hip so to speak. Two of the shooters, very good shooters, were preparing to go to EOT. They stated they did not want to follow the instructions as they were practicing for the big match. I told them if they brought the pistol up and fired at the targets I would issue the SOG. Neither cared, both failed to follow the instructions and both were given the SOG call. No big deal, we're still friends today.

 

I remember that stage!!

 

If it is the one I recall, there was a really good lady shooter on my posse. After she saw me shoot with all hits, she ran up and asked, "How'd you do that?"

 

I showed her the trick and she was thrilled.  Wisd I could remember her alias.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Squaw Creek Rose?

 

[Pat Riot]

I can only recall witnessing one Spirit of the Game penalty and have heard of a couple others at matches when I was present.

The one that I witnessed the shooter was just being a real jerk. He didn't want to say the lines nor did he want to do the little off the clock requirements like, move the money bag or hang the reins of the wooden pony on a nail. Like in Goody's case, he was their "to practice". He got a SOTG penalty, got mad and left. He should have gotten the penalty eariler and made everyone's day a little brighter a little sooner...

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

This last weekend at the California State shoot, we were all warned ahead of time that on a stage with 5 tombstone racks and a dump plate if anyone shot over the top of the rack after knocking all five down then they would get an automatic SOG. It was a little hard for us BP shooters since we couldn't see very well after five shots if anything was still standing.

[Wicked Wayne]

Some folks just don't have the "silliness" gene in their makeup.  When they are asked to do something in a stage that is just "too silly" for them to do, they just want to skip it and move on.  Doing the task may make them feel too ridiculous in front of the other folks there.  These folks are probably there mainly for the shooting part of the sport and probably are not into the costuming side of SASS events either.

 

Other folks just do whatever the script calls for and can tolerate a lot is "silliness" before they reach their limit or perhaps they really don't have a limit at all -

 

Personalities are different and run from serious to ridiculous and in between.  But no one wants to be embarrassed in front of a bunch of people- I think that this may be a part of why people just revolt sometimes.

 

Just a thought.  Not taking sides.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

glad to say I've never seen one given or deserved.

 

as mentioned above the 'silliness gene' is a big part of this sport (and me) and I tend to concentrate on how to change the start lines to something funny

 

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

I assessed a SOG a couple weeks ago. The shooter had a P with their rifle on the first couple shots and proceded to dump the rest on a single target to make up some time. I always suggest that if you blank out and are totally lost, just shoot a Nevada sweep. Nobody will have any traction if they try to argue a SOG against you that way. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

1 hour ago, Redwood Kid said:

This last weekend at the California State shoot, we were all warned ahead of time that on a stage with 5 tombstone racks and a dump plate if anyone shot over the top of the rack after knocking all five down then they would get an automatic SOG. It was a little hard for us BP shooters since we couldn't see very well after five shots if anything was still standing.

That doesn’t sound right at all. 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

1 hour ago, Redwood Kid said:

This last weekend at the California State shoot, we were all warned ahead of time that on a stage with 5 tombstone racks and a dump plate if anyone shot over the top of the rack after knocking all five down then they would get an automatic SOG. It was a little hard for us BP shooters since we couldn't see very well after five shots if anything was still standing.

Hi Kid,

 

I have a pretty good familiarity with Jimmy and Sutter. IMO, the BOD would have been given to a BP shooter. Maybe they didn't think that through to all possibilities. Once the smoke is clear, if the shooter is still shooting over the top, that could be a problem.

 

Also, if you had a sympathetic fall on one (or more) and shot one (or more, matching the number of sympathetic falls) over the top, you should not receive a SOG.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

1 hour ago, Wicked Wayne said:

Some folks just don't have the "silliness" gene in their makeup.  When they are asked to do something in a stage that is just "too silly" for them to do, they just want to skip it and move on.  Doing the task may make them feel too ridiculous in front of the other folks there.  These folks are probably there mainly for the shooting part of the sport and probably are not into the costuming side of SASS events either.

 

Other folks just do whatever the script calls for and can tolerate a lot is "silliness" before they reach their limit or perhaps they really don't have a limit at all -

 

Personalities are different and run from serious to ridiculous and in between.  But no one wants to be embarrassed in front of a bunch of people- I think that this may be a part of why people just revolt sometimes.

 

Just a thought.  Not taking sides.

 

The posses I shoot with consider a SOG a very serious matter, one step below a MDQ.

IMHO, our sport is about enjoying our second childhood with the toys we would have liked to have when we were youngsters.

To cheapen it, by not playing the game, is not something we like to do, even if things seem childish at times. We're supposed to be having fun!

I like to throw myself right into the stage. I holler out the lines, I yell at the varmint/bandit/targets and blast away.

I don't score as high as most, but I have a lot of fun.

[Flying W Ramrod]

Have given two SOG's both for this reason. Both were earned. Both were given. Both shooters got huffy and left.

It's the rule, it's how we play the game.

What Baretta said, If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

 

[J.D. Daily]

24 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

Have given two SOG's both for this reason. Both were earned. Both were given. Both shooters got huffy and left.

It's the rule, it's how we play the game.

What Baretta said, If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

 

The question of do or don't assess a SOG penalty is what will the shooter do if assessed a SOG penalty.  If they walk off they probably won't return to your club .  So is it better to have one fewer shooter or ignore the penalty?  A compromise would be to ignore the penalty except for ranking.

 

[evil dogooder]

So your suggesting to just forget the rules exist just so you can have as many shooters as possible?   Cool then I'll bring all the guys I shoot 3 gun with and the guns  we use to do it because hey it's 40 more shooters.  

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

actually, I think giving a sog to someone who announced up front they were going to do it differently,  is a SOG on the persons wanting to give it,,, there is not an advantage in taking a P,,,

 

now, dumping on a target after getting a P, then yes a SOG..  or a long complaint about a call the shooter didn't like,,,, but not for throwing empty hulls at the spotters who were obviously blind,,, lol

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

 

REF: SHB pp.12 & 23

 

The 30-second penalties for SOG (shooting) and FTE (non-shooting) are often misapplied (or attempted) for offenses that are actually MDQs.

(e.g. "Unsportsmanlike conduct" or "Belligerent attitude")

There is no provision for giving a warning for the first of either of these infractions by a shooter, if the INTENT (on of two criteria required) is admitted or blatantly obvious.

 

FWIW - I had the dubious distinction of assessing the first SOG to a shooter at EoT.

A shooter incurred a "P", then proceeded to commit two more procedural offenses in an attempt to make up time for the first 10-second procedural (knowing that only one "P" can be given per stage). 

All of the offenses were SHOOTING related..."out of order engagement"; followed by a 5-round "dump" on the biggest target in the array while "shooting out of category" (going two-handed in a Duelist category).

When asked by the RM/PM at the ULT, the shooter admitted to doing so to "make up the time for the procedural" (even though it was quite obvious).

 

 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

48 minutes ago, J.D. Daily said:

The question of do or don't assess a SOG penalty is what will the shooter do if assessed a SOG penalty.  If they walk off they probably won't return to your club .  So is it better to have one fewer shooter or ignore the penalty?  A compromise would be to ignore the penalty except for ranking.

 

Howdy JD, Failure to asses an earned penalty is the same as giving the penalty to all of the other shooters. FWIW we no longer use rank scoring, it's all total time now. Good Luck

[Captain Bill Burt]

4 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

This last weekend at the California State shoot, we were all warned ahead of time that on a stage with 5 tombstone racks and a dump plate if anyone shot over the top of the rack after knocking all five down then they would get an automatic SOG. It was a little hard for us BP shooters since we couldn't see very well after five shots if anything was still standing.

That should be a miss, not SOG.

[Willy B.SASS#26902]

In my almost twenty years of SASS shooting The only spirit of the game penalty I've seen given went to a guy who thought reading his newspaper was more important than helping on the posse, When asked to help his reply was " I came to shoot not work"  as I recall he left after that stage and never came back. Truthfully I don't think he was missed. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

12 minutes ago, Willy B.Shakin SASS#26902 said:

In my almost twenty years of SASS shooting The only spirit of the game penalty I've seen given went to a guy who thought reading his newspaper was more important than helping on the posse, When asked to help his reply was " I came to shoot not work"  as I recall he left after that stage and never came back. Truthfully I don't think he was missed. 

That doesn’t actually warrant a SOG. That would be a match DQ for unsportsmanlike behavior. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

16 minutes ago, Willy B.Shakin SASS#26902 said:

In my almost twenty years of SASS shooting The only spirit of the game penalty I've seen given went to a guy who thought reading his newspaper was more important than helping on the posse, When asked to help his reply was " I came to shoot not work"  as I recall he left after that stage and never came back. Truthfully I don't think he was missed. 

 

3 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

That doesn’t actually warrant a SOG. That would be a match DQ for unsportsmanlike behavior. 

 

That's pretty much the type of MIScall to which I was referring in the post above.

[Griff]

3 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

...if the INTENT (on(e) of two criteria required) is admitted or blatantly obvious.

 

...the shooter admitted to doing so to "make up the time for the procedural" (even though it was quite obvious).

I, for one, find it hard to discern a shooters' intent without some overt action or direct comment indicating their intent.  I know that for myself... once that "P" occurs, all is lost... stage instructions, the TO's muffled and indecipherable instructions... shouting from other posse members... etc.!  

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 minute ago, Griff said:

I, for one, find it hard to discern a shooters' intent without some overt action or direct comment indicating their intent.  I know that for myself... once that "P" occurs, all is lost... stage instructions, the TO's muffled and indecipherable instructions... shouting from other posse members... etc.!  

 

In the cited case from EoT, the fact that the shooter went out of category to dump the second revolver on the HUGE middle target of the array instead of engaging the targets in a sweep (which included 4 much smaller KDs upon which hits counted; 1 second bonus for each one KD'd) was what prompted the inquiry as to why he decided to do that.

His reply removed all doubt...followed by a discussion re the application of the SOG penalty ("That's not how we do it at home.");

then an immediate request for a higher opinion...one of the MDs was in the adjacent bay & was called over.

The Match Director's ruling after the shooter told him what he had done: "That's a classic example of a SOG violation!"

II II ( ) II II

EXAMPLE OF TARGET ARRAY

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

16 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hi Kid,

 

I have a pretty good familiarity with Jimmy and Sutter. IMO, the BOD would have been given to a BP shooter. Maybe they didn't think that through to all possibilities. Once the smoke is clear, if the shooter is still shooting over the top, that could be a problem.

 

Also, if you had a sympathetic fall on one (or more) and shot one (or more, matching the number of sympathetic falls) over the top, you should not receive a SOG.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

The question is not so much who should it shouldn’t get the benefit of the doubt, but what part of the scenario warrants a SOG? How does shooting the dirt work out to gaining a competitive advantage?  

[Shooting Bull]

15 hours ago, J.D. Daily said:

The question of do or don't assess a SOG penalty is what will the shooter do if assessed a SOG penalty.  If they walk off they probably won't return to your club .  So is it better to have one fewer shooter or ignore the penalty?  A compromise would be to ignore the penalty except for ranking.

 

 

SASS clubs as a whole tend to bend over backwards to try to please their shooters.  Sometimes, as in your example, to the point of not calling earned penalties just to try to keep a shooter from leaving.  In my ever so humble opinion doing that is doing a huge disservice to the rest of the organization.  To continue with my opinion, loosing a shooter like that would actually improve the club.  I believe in ranching that's called culling the heard.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

17 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hi Kid,

 

I have a pretty good familiarity with Jimmy and Sutter. IMO, the BOD would have been given to a BP shooter. Maybe they didn't think that through to all possibilities. Once the smoke is clear, if the shooter is still shooting over the top, that could be a problem.

 

Also, if you had a sympathetic fall on one (or more) and shot one (or more, matching the number of sympathetic falls) over the top, you should not receive a SOG.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

46 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

The question is not so much who should it shouldn’t get the benefit of the doubt, but what part of the scenario warrants a SOG? How does shooting the dirt work out to gaining a competitive advantage?  

I assume the SOG would be for gaining an advantage by shooting over the top and not having to aim at the dump plate.

 

I can see where it would be difficult to determine one shot over the top differing from a miss (not a SOG). However, multiple shots over the top of a rather large dump plate might be a different story.

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

1 minute ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

I assume the SOG would be for gaining an advantage by shooting over the top and not having to aim at the dump plate.

 

I can see where it would be difficult to determine one shot over the top differing from a miss (not a SOG). However, multiple shots over the top of a rather large dump plate might be a different story.

 

Assuming the stage is what I think it is, (after the plates are down, remaining shots on dump plate?), once they are down, any shots that don’t hit the dump plate are misses and those are really hard to gain an advantage with. Maybe I don’t understand the stage as written? 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Assuming the stage is what I think it is, (after the plates are down, remaining shots on dump plate?), once they are down, any shots that don’t hit the dump plate are misses and those are really hard to gain an advantage with. Maybe I don’t understand the stage as written? 

 

Same here.

How could purposely dumping the remaining shots in the dirt instead of on the stationary target be a competitive advantage if those shots are counted as 5-second misses??

The miss penalties would seem to offset any perceived time saved.

Je ne comprends pas!  

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

1 hour ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Assuming the stage is what I think it is, (after the plates are down, remaining shots on dump plate?), once they are down, any shots that don’t hit the dump plate are misses and those are really hard to gain an advantage with. Maybe I don’t understand the stage as written? 

 

11 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Same here.

How could purposely dumping the remaining shots in the dirt instead of on the stationary target be a competitive advantage if those shots are counted as 5-second misses??

The miss penalties would seem to offset any perceived time saved.

Je ne comprends pas!  

Stage instructions were shoot tombstones until down and then engage dump plate. Only misses on dump plate count as misses. I can't speak for the MD, but my assumption is that the thought was some folks might try to engage the dump plates so fast and claim that one was still falling while they were still shooting at it, thus gaining some sort of combination of speed and less chance of miss bonus. The dump plate was very big and very close, so I don't know if either would have worked out as an advantage. From my perspective, it seemed as if they were coming up with a pre-match solution to a problem that didn't exist. But that is a little above my pay grade.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

5 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

 

Stage instructions were shoot tombstones until down and then engage dump plate. Only misses on dump plate count as misses. I can't speak for the MD, but my assumption is that the thought was some folks might try to engage the dump plates so fast and claim that one was still falling while they were still shooting at it, thus gaining some sort of combination of speed and less chance of miss bonus. The dump plate was very big and very close, so I don't know if either would have worked out as an advantage. From my perspective, it seemed as if they were coming up with a pre-match solution to a problem that didn't exist. But that is a little above my pay grade.

It seems to me that they mis-understood the way the rules as written apply to the scenario they designed. It also seems that they don’t understand what a SOG actually is. If we are dealing with the portion having to do with shooting a stage other than the way it was intended in order to gain a competitive advantage, I can’t think of a way to do that without also getting a procedural. Since a miss can’t cause a P, it really can’t apply to the situation you describe. 

[Hoss]

I've seen (and even did it once, on a dare) shooter shoot 4 of 5 falling plates, "miss" 5th plate 5 times, place last shot on final plate, thereby knocking down all 5 with 10 shots, negating any chance of a miss on the dump, plus the time transitioning to the dump. I don't think it's all that much quicker, and there is a risk that you could either miss the standing plate with the final shot, or, miss-count and not have a bullet left for it.  Some have said they thought that could be an SOG. 

 

I usually try to run the plates as fast as I can with first gun, hoping to get at least 3-4 down, then clean up with 2nd gun and go to dump. 

[Ramblin Gambler]

22 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

 

I remember that stage!!

 

If it is the one I recall, there was a really good lady shooter on my posse. After she saw me shoot with all hits, she ran up and asked, "How'd you do that?"

 

I showed her the trick and she was thrilled.  Wisd I could remember her alias.

 

ferget her alias, tell us the trick!

 

 

25 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I've seen (and even did it once, on a dare) shooter shoot 4 of 5 falling plates, "miss" 5th plate 5 times, place last shot on final plate, thereby knocking down all 5 with 10 shots, negating any chance of a miss on the dump, plus the time transitioning to the dump. I don't think it's all that much quicker, and there is a risk that you could either miss the standing plate with the final shot, or, miss-count and not have a bullet left for it.  Some have said they thought that could be an SOG. 

 

I usually try to run the plates as fast as I can with first gun, hoping to get at least 3-4 down, then clean up with 2nd gun and go to dump. 

 

I'd call that a SOG, but this gets into judging the shooter's intent.  Maybe if they admit to it, it should be called.  I've heard top shooters joke about doing that during the reading of the instructions, but never seen anyone do it.  I think the purpose of the joke was just to point out that sometimes you get a 'free miss' if it happens on the plate rack.  Not to actually suggest anyone do it.