Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Stage has 5 knock down plates for rifle and a dump target. Instructions - Engage knock down targets left to right till down. Knock down targets still standing at end of string count as one miss each. (Misses on the knock down do not count as misses. Misses on the dump plate do count as misses). Place any remaining rounds on dump target. (It should be noted that the plates fall slowly when hit with anything short of a 50cal) Shooter shoots AND HITS all the knock down plates. Plate 5 starts to fall as shooter proceeds to the dump plate. Target 5 settles back into the original position about round two on the dump plate. Shooter spots standing dump plate and fires last round at the remaining knock down and hits the knock down again but still does not knock it down. Actual call - A procedural and two misses.
Dutch Coroner Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 A P for engaging the dump before the knockdowns were all down and a miss for the 1 knockdown still standing.
Krazy Kajun Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Let me see if I understand this.... Rounds 1-5 are shot at the 5 knockdown plates.....one of the knockdown plates remains up Rounds 6-9 are shot at and hit the dump plate. Round 10 is shot at the remaining knockdown plate that did not originally fall and after Round 10 was expended the plate still remained standing. I'd say a P for shooting the targets out of order since the stage instructions as stated in the original post said shoot until down and then dump any remaining rounds on dump plate. I'd also say shooter gets a miss for the remaining knockdown plate that was not knocked down. So that'd be 1 miss and a P. Kajun
Fast Enuff Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Hm.... I'll go with a P and one miss. Shooter got the P for hitting the dump before the plates were down. Shooter got the miss for one knock down still being up at the end of the string.
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 If he hit it twice and it didn't go down sounds to me like some faulty knock-downs. Don't seem right to blame the shooter.
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Assuming no target failure. ..what's so hard about the call?
Krazy Kajun Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 If he hit it twice and it didn't go down sounds to me like some faulty knock-downs. Don't seem right to blame the shooter. I'd ask the OP to post additional information regarding this....did other shooters experience the same problem with the knockdown plates on that stage? If so then it bears some further review as to Nate's point above. Kajun
Grizzly Dave Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Assuming no target failure. ..what's so hard about the call? I'm assuming, yes, I know what that makes out of me that the wording 'misses on the dump plate count as a miss' is what confuses some people. I read it as taking off the exception stated for the plate rack, and in that case the 10th round hit the correct type of target so would not earn a miss. A P was already earned and you can't get two on a stage. And a plate left standing earns a miss. Some may choose to read it overly literally that once a shooter starts engaging the dump plate any round not striking it is a miss.
Charlie Whiskers Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Well Ace it sounds to me like the plate rack wasn't properly adjusted. A 22 should be able to take down a KD if it's set right. We have a 10 plate rack and adjust ours so a 22 will knock them down from 15 yards to be sure, and ours are 12 inch 3/8 inch AR400. If it takes a 50 to get them down rapidly, get out your wrenches. If it's the rack I shot at last year with my pistols, I hit it high 3 times and it still didn't go down. The TO finally told to shoot the dump target and NO misses were counted as the other 4 fell. I agree with the P though.
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 26, 2015 Author Posted June 26, 2015 I'd ask the OP to post additional information regarding this....did other shooters experience the same problem with the knockdown plates on that stage? If so then it bears some further review as to Nate's point above. Kajun NO
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 Get some new KDs or fix existing to fall when hit. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy
Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 If he hit it twice and it didn't go down sounds to me like some faulty knock-downs. Don't seem right to blame the shooter. +1
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 26, 2015 Author Posted June 26, 2015 Well Ace it sounds to me like the plate rack wasn't properly adjusted. A 22 should be able to take down a KD if it's set right. We have a 10 plate rack and adjust ours so a 22 will knock them down from 15 yards to be sure, and ours are 12 inch 3/8 inch AR400. If it takes a 50 to get them down rapidly, get out your wrenches. If it's the rack I shot at last year with my pistols, I hit it high 3 times and it still didn't go down. The TO finally told to shoot the dump target and NO misses were counted as the other 4 fell. I agree with the P though. Not my target..... Not my range...... No one else had a problem. Just for the record. Match Design Manual page 3 - All pistol and rifle knock-downs should be pre-set so a factory 158 grain .38 Special round will trip it.
Tom Bullweed Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 I can understand the P. The word 'till' should signal the shooter that they must make sure all KDs are down before moving to the dump target. I am okay with the miss. I am clueless on the two misses.
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 If he hit it twice and it didn't go down sounds to me like some faulty knock-downs. Don't seem right to blame the shooter. I HAVE seen cases where light loads hitting low on the target consistently fail to knock down a KD. Fillmore
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 If you are going to incorporate KD's they should be set up to go over with a center hit using minimum power factor SASS loads from a handgun. The same ammo from a rifle should not be an issue at all. If you say just use more powerful loads you are automatically penalizing many of the lady shooters at minimum.
Charlie Whiskers Posted June 26, 2015 Posted June 26, 2015 If you are going to incorporate KD's they should be set up to go over with a center hit using minimum power factor SASS loads from a handgun. The same ammo from a rifle should not be an issue at all. If you say just use more powerful loads you are automatically penalizing many of the lady shooters at minimum. And the Buckeroo's and Buckerette's. Just because even if "they" don't have to take down KD's, the look of "I did it" on their faces sure makes everyone feel better, especially them. Like I said, we use 22's to set our racks, (with a mid target hit).
Krazy Kajun Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 Not my target..... Not my range...... No one else had a problem. Just for the record. Match Design Manual page 3 - All pistol and rifle knock-downs should be pre-set so a factory 158 grain .38 Special round will trip it. If only that shooter had a problem with the knockdown and no one else did then the call of 1 miss and a P is the correct call.
Ventura Slim, SASS #35690 Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 I cannot figure out if its a P and a miss or a miss and a P, depends on your score sheet? Adding.. Everyone is shooting the same targets so take the setup of the kds out of it
Null N. Void Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 The way I see it is one miss only. The procedure say misses on the knock downs are not penalties. Essentially, the shooter shot this as 4 successfull knockdowns and 6 misses on the last target, which are not penalties. The penalties for misses only come into play when all 5 knockdowns are down and the dump target is in play. Another way to look at it is if you shoot a pistol target instead of a rifle target during a rifle string. It's not a P, it's a miss for each time you shoot the pistol target(s). You only get a P if you get out of sequence on the rifle targets. I await PWB.
Rye Miles #13621 Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 If there was one KD standing and he didn't miss the dump then why the P? I say one miss!
Most Wanted Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 A P for going to the dump plate early . A miss for leaving up a KD . No extra miss for re engaging the plate rack because instructions say "remaining rounds go on dump plate" . Since there was a KD still up there was no remaining rounds . That's my best guess .
Jackson Rose, SASS #45478 Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 Should have added the line that missed KD's can be made up at any time, just like KD shotgun targets. A fast shooter should not be penalized for slow reaction targets.
Rye Miles #13621 Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 A P for going to the dump plate early . A miss for leaving up a KD . No extra miss for re engaging the plate rack because instructions say "remaining rounds go on dump plate" . Since there was a KD still up there was no remaining rounds . That's my best guess . The OP said the KD started to go down but then settles back to it's original position Shooter shouldn't be penalized for that! Prop failure if anything! I still say ONE MISS!
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 Of course, the proper solution for the shooter for such targets is to quickly do double taps on each target and be done with it. As long as they are hitting the target or that it is still up as they shoot, no call.
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 slightly different wording would make for happier customers. With that stage description why wouldn't a feller just dump all remaining shots on the last slow falling plate?
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 If there was one KD standing and he didn't miss the dump then why the P? I say one miss! Because the instructions state that the dump wasn't to be engaged until the KD's are down...in other words, dump target is off limits. 1 miss for the target left up. See...simple. Next shooter!
Anvil Al #59168 Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 slightly different wording would make for happier customers. With that stage description why wouldn't a feller just dump all remaining shots on the last slow falling plate? +1
Wyatt Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 To me, the call hinges on weather going back to the KD after engaging the dump plate is considered the correct order. My call.........P and two misses
Most Wanted Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 The OP said the KD started to go down but then settles back to it's original position Shooter shouldn't be penalized for that! Prop failure if anything! I still say ONE MISS! I've seen more KDs start to fall and settle back upright from light hits than I could possibly count. Hitting a KD doesn't mean you hit it well enough to go down. I check slow targets when I reset them. If their heavy I adjust them. But I would never argue the point after I've chosen to shoot the stage. Sounds like he was the only one to have this problem.
Black Angus McPherson Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 I'm just waiting to hear how they came up with TWO misses for the stage. Maybe a miss for each shot that hit, but did not knock down, the last target? :-) (That's a joke, I say, a joke, son) Angus
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted June 27, 2015 Posted June 27, 2015 This has come up many times in the past concerning KD's. No matter what your view is the bottom line is KD's don't stay adjusted the same for every shooter. If they are on the ground even staked down heavy loads will move them.The only way around this is to permanently mount them on a concrete base. Then you have the problem of lead splatter getting in the hinge areas. So, as the day goes by some shooters will be penalized for prop failure. So you ask, how do other gun games do it. Simple, they have a higher power factor and usually stable rack mounted plates. I'm not advocating eliminating KD's. I just think that if we are going to use a low power factor (which I like BTW) I think a hit should be counted as a hit regardless if the KD goes down or not. You still have KD's but it would eliminate the variable.
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 27, 2015 Author Posted June 27, 2015 Actual call - A procedural and two misses. The Procedural was earned when the shooter shot the sixth shot at and hit the dump target. 1 Miss - The target still standing. The second miss was assessed because the shooter shot at and hit the knockdown with shot #10 thereby MISSING the dump target. (A rather large 4' diameter circle) I didn't say that this was the right call. Yes. I did advise that it was an incorrect call. The shooter hit the right KIND of target with shot #10. Shooter cannot earn a second Procedural.
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