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Ace_of_Hearts

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Of course, the proper solution for the shooter for such targets is to quickly do double taps on each target and be done with it. As long as they are hitting the target or that it is still up as they shoot, no call.

Many shooter do exactly that because there is no penalty for a miss until all the targets are down. (one should be careful with that last round.)

I have seen really fast shooter put as many as 3 rounds on the first plate of a tombstone inline plate rack.

It also helps if you use something beside a 100gr bullet in a 38 spl.

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Of course, the proper solution for the shooter for such targets is to quickly do double taps on each target and be done with it. As long as they are hitting the target or that it is still up as they shoot, no call.

Yep....When we use KDs or the Texas Star I usually write the stage for the shotgun to end up where the KDs are, then they can make up any plates left standing to save a clean match.

" from table 2 shoot the two KDs......take shotgun with you to table 3. With pistols shoot the plates (or Star). Any remaining plates may be made up with shotgun."...................Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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I'm enjoying the discussion and still await PWB.

 

One of the fastest ways to shoot it for an fast, accurate shooter is to knock down 4 targets, dump 5 quickly, and get the last target. You have a risk, but an acceptable one. If you miss one on shots 1 to 4, then you have to remember where you were on the missed shot and adjust accordingly.

 

Shooting double taps is also a good way to do it, but if you miss on the 10'th shot because the 9'th shot knocked down the 5'th knockdown so fast, you have a miss because the 10'th shot should have gone on the dump.

 

For the record, I'll shoot this as knock down all the targets with my first shots, and then shoot the remaining shots on the dump. It's too confusing to do it otherwise, particularly if you have a miss somewhere in the sequence.

 

I'll offer that the "then" does not make a difference. Once you stipulate that misses are not penalties, why is the space that the dump target occupies the only area that one cannot shoot without penalty? Of course this doesn't mean you can shoot over the berm, hit a prop, etc. because there are other safety rules that apply, and they are controlling.

 

I'll still go with any other target is not in play until the last knockdown is down. I agree with Jefro on writing it so you have X number of shots to get X number of knockdowns. If you don't get them all, clean them up with a shotgun. The only way I write it differently is a Texas Star.

 

SBS

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If you are to single tap targets 1 through 10 and skip from 4 to 6 that's a P. You can't say 6 was not in play because you hadn't hit 5 yet.

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Actual call - A procedural and two misses.

 

The Procedural was earned when the shooter shot the sixth shot at and hit the dump target.

Huh! How is that a P? The 5 KD's were engaged with the first 5 rounds. Shooter has the option to re-engage 5th KD or move to dump plate with rounds 6 - 10 and take the miss.

1 Miss - The target still standing.

The second miss was assessed because the shooter shot at and hit the knockdown with shot #10 thereby MISSING the dump target. (A rather large 4' diameter circle)

 

I didn't say that this was the right call.

Yes. I did advise that it was an incorrect call. The shooter hit the right KIND of target with shot #10. Shooter cannot earn a second Procedural.

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If you are to single tap targets 1 through 10 and skip from 4 to 6 that's a P. You can't say 6 was not in play because you hadn't hit 5 yet.

Agreed if you have a 10 target sweep. However, we have the complication that says we have 5 targets with 10 shots and misses are not penalties. I don't like the confusion it can cause the shooter so I try to make it so you shoot 5 on 5 and then clean up with a SG. That way, there is no confusion and the shooter can either take the miss or use the SG to take out the target.

 

However, in this case, misses up to 10 are not a penalty. If you miss 10 times, it's five misses because of the 5 targets left standing and no P. If you shoot the dump target 10 times, it's still 5 misses as I see it because the Dump target is not in play until all 5 knockdowns are down.

 

Once the 5'th knockdown goes down, the dump target is in play. I As I said, I await PWB.

 

SBS

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Stage has 5 knock down plates for rifle and a dump target.

Instructions - Engage knock down targets left to right till down. Knock down targets still standing at end of string count as one miss each. (Misses on the knock down do not count as misses. Misses on the dump plate do count as misses). Place any remaining rounds on dump target.

(It should be noted that the plates fall slowly when hit with anything short of a 50cal)

Shooter shoots AND HITS all the knock down plates. Plate 5 starts to fall as shooter proceeds to the dump plate. Target 5 settles back into the original position about round two on the dump plate. Shooter spots standing dump plate and fires last round at the remaining knock down and hits the knock down again but still does not knock it down.

 

Actual call - A procedural and two misses.

 

 

 

Actual call - A procedural and two misses.

 

The Procedural was earned when the shooter shot the sixth shot at and hit the dump target.

Huh! How is that a P? The 5 KD's were engaged with the first 5 rounds. Shooter has the option to re-engage 5th KD or move to dump plate with rounds 6 - 10 and take the miss.

1 Miss - The target still standing.

The second miss was assessed because the shooter shot at and hit the knockdown with shot #10 thereby MISSING the dump target. (A rather large 4' diameter circle)

 

I didn't say that this was the right call.

Yes. I did advise that it was an incorrect call. The shooter hit the right KIND of target with shot #10. Shooter cannot earn a second Procedural.

 

Wyatt...I quoted post 1 from this thread with stage instructions....said clearly to engage knockdowns till down and then go to dump plate. Of course you can always take the miss and go to the dump plate but then you get the miss and the P if you make that choice.

 

Kajun

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Wyatt...I quoted post 1 from this thread with stage instructions....said clearly to engage knockdowns till down and then go to dump plate. Of course you can always take the miss and go to the dump plate but then you get the miss and the P if you make that choice.

 

Kajun

So.......you are saying a miss can cause a P?

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Was there room between the two targets for a clean miss. I would say in this case yes. So engaging targets out of order earned him the P. Till down means don't hit dump until all KDs are down. No different than shooting and making up SG targets in order ( which I hate ). The one miss he should have gotten instead of two was the standing KD at the end.

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There is no time sequence for the phrase Place any remaining rounds on dump target.

Based on the english used: one could shoot #1 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #2 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #3 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #4 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #5 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round. This satisfies the stage instructions as written. All rounds not used on the knockdown targets are "remaining rounds" - regardless of the order shot. the word "then" needs to be used before the phrase "Place any remaining rounds on dump target." to provide a time sequence of the two events.

 

The meaning of the stage instructions are determined by the english used NOT the stage writer's intent.

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There is no time sequence for the phrase Place any remaining rounds on dump target.

Based on the english used: one could shoot #1 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #2 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #3 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #4 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #5 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round. This satisfies the stage instructions as written. All rounds not used on the knockdown targets are "remaining rounds" - regardless of the order shot. the word "then" needs to be used before the phrase "Place any remaining rounds on dump target." to provide a time sequence of the two events.

 

The meaning of the stage instructions are determined by the english used NOT the stage writer's intent.

You did not include the first sentence in the stage instructions which is "Engage knock down targets left to right till down." You shoot the knock down targets until they are all down....that's definitive about how you shoot the stage until such time as you complete the instructions "till down." After you complete the "till down" part you then move into anything else. The "then" I don't think is necessary.

 

Just my view anyway,

Kajun

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You did not include the first sentence in the stage instructions which is "Engage knock down targets left to right till down." You shoot the knock down targets until they are all down....that's definitive about how you shoot the stage until such time as you complete the instructions "till down." After you complete the "till down" part you then move into anything else. The "then" I don't think is necessary.

 

Just my view anyway,

Kajun

Agree. I'm not saying who's right or wrong I just think it's wild how we all read it and come up with different answers and I'm sure each one of us feels we're right.
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All of my comments are relitive to the OP. I read the English and it is simple. Thanks for taking this discussion in a negative direction.

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There is no time sequence for the phrase Place any remaining rounds on dump target.

Based on the english used: one could shoot #1 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #2 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #3 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #4 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round, then shoot #5 knockdown(it falls), then dump target one round. This satisfies the stage instructions as written. All rounds not used on the knockdown targets are "remaining rounds" - regardless of the order shot. the word "then" needs to be used before the phrase "Place any remaining rounds on dump target." to provide a time sequence of the two events.

 

The meaning of the stage instructions are determined by the english used NOT the stage writer's intent.

I'm at a loss for words...english or otherwise.
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re·main

(rĭ-mān′)

intr.v. re·mained, re·main·ing, re·mains
1. To continue in the same state or condition: These matters remain in doubt.
2. To continue to be in the same place; stay or stay behind: We are remaining at home.
3. To be left after the removal, loss, passage, or destruction of others
4. To be left as still to be dealt with
5. To endure or persist: Despite the passing of so many years, the fond memories remain.
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To play devil's advocate, exactly when is a plate down? When it starts falling or when it stops? :blink:

 

Maybe we should start saying something more like "Using 10 pistol rounds engage the knockdown plates and the dump target. Any plates that remain up once pistols are empty will be counted as misses.", but no, I guess that won't work either as it doesn't force you to hit dump target. (sigh) Maybe we need a 3000 page document...

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I'd call it a "P" for re-engaging the KDs after the dump plate, and a miss for the KD still standing. Wordsmithing it to death doesn't change the stage description... the dump plate was to be engaged with remaining shots AFTER the KDs were attempted. I don't read any allowance for re-engaging the KDs after the dump plate.

 

As noted, the 5th KD was engaged, just failed to go down; the 10th round hit a "pistol" target, ergo, it was a "hit", just not on the proper target, earning the "P".

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Actual call - A procedural and two misses.

 

The Procedural was earned when the shooter shot the sixth shot at and hit the dump target.

1 Miss - The target still standing.

The second miss was assessed because the shooter shot at and hit the knockdown with shot #10 thereby MISSING the dump target. (A rather large 4' diameter circle)

Wow, just Wow. Poor guy couldn't win for losing. Even if he knocked down the last target with his last shot he still gets a miss. Poor b@$tige. LOL

 

I didn't say that this was the right call.

Yes. I did advise that it was an incorrect call. The shooter hit the right KIND of target with shot #10. Shooter cannot earn a second Procedural.

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Actual call - A procedural and two misses.

 

The Procedural was earned when the shooter shot the sixth shot at and hit the dump target.

1 Miss - The target still standing.

The second miss was assessed because the shooter shot at and hit the knockdown with shot #10 thereby MISSING the dump target. (A rather large 4' diameter circle)

Wow, just Wow. Poor guy couldn't win for losing. Even if he knocked down the last target with his last shot he still gets a miss. Poor b@$tige. LOL

 

I didn't say that this was the right call.

Yes. I did advise that it was an incorrect call. The shooter hit the right KIND of target with shot #10. Shooter cannot earn a second Procedural.

Why would he still get a miss ?

Let me add that "remaining rounds " we're to go on the dump target. Since there was a KD standing there were no remaining rounds.

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I'd call it a "P" for re-engaging the KDs after the dump plate, and a miss for the KD still standing. Wordsmithing it to death doesn't change the stage description... the dump plate was to be engaged with remaining shots AFTER the KDs were attempted. I don't read any allowance for re-engaging the KDs after the dump plate.

 

As noted, the 5th KD was engaged, just failed to go down; the 10th round hit a "pistol" target, ergo, it was a "hit", just not on the proper target, earning the "P".

You have just "wordsmithed " it. The instructions were to shoot KDs until down. Not "attempted". And how do you get a P for going back to the KDs. The P is for going to the dump early. That's my take.

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The 2nd miss was a bad call as it required the call to be made based on the intent of the shooter. Since the re was a KD target still standing , the shooter had the right to engage it. Saying that the shooter must continue to shoot at the dump target once the dump target has been engaged is a faulty belief. ..

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The way I see it is one miss only. The procedure say misses on the knock downs are not penalties. Essentially, the shooter shot this as 4 successfull knockdowns and 6 misses on the last target, which are not penalties. The penalties for misses only come into play when all 5 knockdowns are down and the dump target is in play.

 

Another way to look at it is if you shoot a pistol target instead of a rifle target during a rifle string. It's not a P, it's a miss for each time you shoot the pistol target(s). You only get a P if you get out of sequence on the rifle targets.

 

I await PWB.

 

 

Because the instructions state that the dump wasn't to be engaged until the KD's are down...in other words, dump target is off limits. 1 miss for the target left up.

 

See...simple.

 

Next shooter!

 

 

 

However, in this case, misses up to 10 are not a penalty. If you miss 10 times, it's five misses because of the 5 targets left standing and no P. If you shoot the dump target 10 times, it's still 5 misses as I see it because the Dump target is not in play until all 5 knockdowns are down.

 

Once the 5'th knockdown goes down, the dump target is in play. I As I said, I await PWB.

 

SBS

 

 

The 2nd miss was a bad call as it required the call to be made based on the intent of the shooter. Since the re was a KD target still standing , the shooter had the right to engage it. Saying that the shooter must continue to shoot at the dump target once the dump target has been engaged is a faulty belief. ..

Yep, I'm agonna agree1 miss ;) Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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When does the “Spirit Of the Game” come into play? If you can be penalized for not fowling the SOG than could you not also use this clause to apply to this situation, wherein the shooter tried to go with the SOG and went back to the KN when he realized that it had not gone down?

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You have just "wordsmithed " it. The instructions were to shoot KDs until down. Not "attempted". And how do you get a P for going back to the KDs. The P is for going to the dump early. That's my take.

"Attempted" - "engaged", sameo sameo. Just as with a SG KD, once engaged, you're free to move to the next target in the sequence. I've never heard of anyone being penalized for engaging the next target before a previous one has fallen. I have heard and participated in discussions where the question of stages such as the one described, of whether after engaging P1, the shooter proceeds to engage P2, if P1 fails to fall, has shooter shot them out of order? Arguments can ensue... but my take away is that such notions turn such a stage into a "P" trap.

 

The 2nd miss was a bad call as it required the call to be made based on the intent of the shooter. Since the re was a KD target still standing , the shooter had the right to engage it. Saying that the shooter must continue to shoot at the dump target once the dump target has been engaged is a faulty belief. ..

As in the scenario above, if the shooter elects to let a KD stand or fails to notice it's still up, & engages the next target sequence, then decides to re-engage that KD, hasn't the shooter earned a "P" for shooting the stage in a manner different than the stage instructions? Albeit, in my example, it would be a different firearm in the interim.

 

I'm going for some popcorn. :ph34r:

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Griff I agree 100% it's a P trap and that's why in an earlier post I stated its just like shooting SG KDs in an order and Make Ups have to be done in order. What it does is make a reasonable SG shooter have to wait. Reread the OP. Till down is how the KDs are to be shot. Engage and down are not the same thing.

I edited my oridginal post because I felt it came off a little harsh. Apologies MW

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"Attempted" - "engaged", sameo sameo. Just as with a SG KD, once engaged, you're free to move to the next target in the sequence. I've never heard of anyone being penalized for engaging the next target before a previous one has fallen. I have heard and participated in discussions where the question of stages such as the one described, of whether after engaging P1, the shooter proceeds to engage P2, if P1 fails to fall, has shooter shot them out of order? Arguments can ensue... but my take away is that such notions turn such a stage into a "P" trap.

 

 

As in the scenario above, if the shooter elects to let a KD stand or fails to notice it's still up, & engages the next target sequence, then decides to re-engage that KD, hasn't the shooter earned a "P" for shooting the stage in a manner different than the stage instructions? Albeit, in my example, it would be a different firearm in the interim.

 

I'm going for some popcorn. :ph34r:

Griff - definitely a P, I was just addressing the question of whether the shooter earned 1 or 2 misses.
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Hi Folks,

 

It seems to me that this came up once before and it was a no call because the shooter didn't leave any KDs up. No P because no one could prove he/she didn't just miss the KD when the stationary plate was hit.

 

If I remembered that correctly, there would be just one miss here, the KD that was still standing.

 

If I can find that thread, I'll post a link. Or, maybe PWB will have the final word when he gets home from EOT.

 

Regards,

 

Allie :unsure: Mo

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If a shooter used all ten rounds because he needed them ALL because of missing /or hitting them on the hinge ,but got them all to fall...

He would earn NO misses and NO "P" Provided he knocked them down from left to right... The dump target only comes into Play after all Plates are down...

 

SO , one "P" for shooting the Dump Target before completing the first task required and one MISS for the plate left standing...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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No way Allie - doesn't matter. The right type of target (pistol), was hit at the wrong time...therefore a P.

Do you mean rifle, or are we not talking about the OP anymore? You had me confused with talk of hitting a pistol target when it was being shot with a rifle.

 

BTW, I think I remember the thread Allie is talking about. Reading the miss flowchart, I can see it being a miss only. the question on the flow chart is "Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses". The plate left standing was clearly a miss, so the targets were hit in the correct order except for that miss.

 

Then we have this in the stage conventions:

"All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count. Any knockdown

target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be

counted as a miss."

 

What is considered the next sequence of the stage? Is that the next gun, or would the next sequence be the dump target? Or does it even matter?

 

I just confused myself.

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Do you mean rifle, or are we not talking about the OP anymore? You had me confused with talk of hitting a pistol target when it was being shot with a rifle.

 

BTW, I think I remember the thread Allie is talking about. Reading the miss flowchart, I can see it being a miss only. the question on the flow chart is "Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses". The plate left standing was clearly a miss, so the targets were hit in the correct order except for that miss.

 

Then we have this in the stage conventions:

"All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count. Any knockdown

target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be

counted as a miss."

 

What is considered the next sequence of the stage? Is that the next gun, or would the next sequence be the dump target? Or does it even matter?

 

I just confused myself.

Yes...corrected. Thanks!

 

Phantom

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