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Interesting call opinions on this


Ace_of_Hearts

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As I understand it, shooting a rifle target, with a pistol for example, is a miss, not a P. A P occurs when you shoot the wrong sequence on the correct targets. That's why I think this is a miss only.

 

I await PWB and don't have a problem if I'm wrong. This is how we learn.

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As I understand it, shooting a rifle target, with a pistol for example, is a miss, not a P. A P occurs when you shoot the wrong sequence on the correct targets. That's why I think this is a miss only.

 

I await PWB and don't have a problem if I'm wrong. This is how we learn.

Uh...he shot the dump plate (Rifle target), when there were still Rifle KD's to knock down...

 

All Rifle targets...

 

Phantom

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We have a similar rack, it's a Tombstone rack from DS welding, when I write it into stages I make it clear that if the shooter goes to the dump target and there are still plates up on the rack they earn a "P". I also indicate misses on the rack do not count as misses, misses on the dump target count as misses. If this is made clear in the stage instructions no one can complain when the get a P. If a plate fails to fall, as one local pard indicates, "It sucks to be you!"

 

TB

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As I see it, you have rifle knockdowns and a rifle dump target. They are a different class of target.

 

This is a good topic because I don't remember it coming up like this. I look forward to the final ruling.

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We have a similar rack, it's a Tombstone rack from DS welding, when I write it into stages I make it clear that if the shooter goes to the dump target and there are still plates up on the rack they earn a "P". I also indicate misses on the rack do not count as misses, misses on the dump target count as misses. If this is made clear in the stage instructions no one can complain when the get a P. If a plate fails to fall, as one local pard indicates, "It sucks to be you!"

 

TB

I'm sure you make it clear but why write a stage like that. 10 rounds on 5 KDs. Extra rounds to be shot at ( what ever) only misses counted will be standing KDs. Not a whole lot to go wrong. I have seen a hay bale and also a stuffed dummy used as the (what ever ) target. It's best to have something out there as opposed to the ground. The OP way it can be a P trap if targets fall slow and obviously very confusing to some. And thanks for writing stages in the first place.

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Let me see if I understand this....

Rounds 1-5 are shot at the 5 knockdown plates.....one of the knockdown plates remains up

Rounds 6-9 are shot at and hit the dump plate.

Round 10 is shot at the remaining knockdown plate that did not originally fall and after Round 10 was expended the plate still remained standing.

 

I'd say a P for shooting the targets out of order since the stage instructions as stated in the original post said shoot until down and then dump any remaining rounds on dump plate. I'd also say shooter gets a miss for the remaining knockdown plate that was not knocked down.

 

So that'd be 1 miss and a P.

 

Kajun

I second what Kajun stated, plus the plates should be calibrated to fall when hit not stay up, if you want it to fall use a knock down target otherwise use a std target. Sorry bad stage construction not design. The knock downs should be calibrated to fall using a std 38 sass load.
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As I see it, you have rifle knockdowns and a rifle dump target. They are a different class of target.

 

This is a good topic because I don't remember it coming up like this. I look forward to the final ruling.

"Class" of target...what does that mean?

 

Phantom

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"Class" of target...what does that mean?

 

Phantom

Class http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/class?s=t

noun

1.
a number of persons or things regarded as forming a group by reason of common attributes, characteristics, qualities, or traits; kind; sort:
a class of objects used in daily living.
<_<
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Class http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/class?s=t

noun

1.
a number of persons or things regarded as forming a group by reason of common attributes, characteristics, qualities, or traits; kind; sort:
a class of objects used in daily living.
<_<

 

Kind of a snooty response Allie.

 

I was asking what "Class" of target meant as it pertains to CAS - SASS to be specific. I'm not familiar with any distinction given to different forms of targets (ie: Dump Rifle vs. Static Rifle).

 

But, I could be wrong and was asking a legit question.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Phantom

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Kind of a snooty response Allie.

 

I was asking what "Class" of target meant as it pertains to CAS - SASS to be specific. I'm not familiar with any distinction given to different forms of targets (ie: Dump Rifle vs. Static Rifle).

 

But, I could be wrong and was asking a legit question.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Phantom

Seems he meant that KDs are a different type/class of target than stationery targets (dump plate)..

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Seems he meant that KDs are a different type/class of target than stationery targets (dump plate)..

Yes...of course that what I thought.

 

But I was trying not to make an assumption. Thought your response was a little condescending.

 

Phantom

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Only in that one moves and the other doesn't. So for the purpose of this discussion Same "Class" targets : Rifle.

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Only in that one moves and the other doesn't. So for the purpose of this discussion Same "Class" targets : Rifle.

Yep, that's what I was assuming was meant by the post.

 

And yer 100% correct MW.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

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Yes...of course that what I thought.

 

But I was trying not to make an assumption. Thought your response was a little condescending.

 

Phantom

It wasn't intended to be condescending, just brief. I don't always use a salutation or Regards in posts anymore. Time is short.

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5 are knockdowns that can be hit, but must go down to count. The dump just has to be hit to count. They are both rifle targets, but different. Still awaiting PWB.

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5 are knockdowns that can be hit, but must go down to count. The dump just has to be hit to count. They are both rifle targets, but different. Still awaiting PWB.

You're questioning whether there was a P earned....you're question has nothing to do with whether there was a P or not.

 

Phantom

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The question is whether the engagement of the KD rack is a separate "sequence" (even though it is part of the same shooting string on the same TYPE of target) than that of the "dump target" engagement.

 

If so, then the 2nd "Stage Convention" applies to the KD that was still up when the shooter went to the dump target.

REF: SHB p.22

 

I can seen how it may have been applied in the OP:

 

Shooter move to the "dump" before the plates were all down = P (out of order engagement)

KD still standing was a MISS at that point.

Last shot on the KD was a MISS on the "dump target" since the "target sequence" had shifted from the "unmissable" KDs to the "missable" dump target.

 

The call hinges on the definition (which, BTW, has NOT been discussed by the ROC at this point...some of us are just returning from EoT, others are still enroute to their respective home bases).

 

Will be back in a few days with a definitive answer.

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Since "remaining" rounds were to go on the dump target and there were no remaining rounds going back to the KD after earning the P I think would be a no call. Like getting lost in a pattern , earning a P then finishing off the pattern correctly. Thanks PWB for the info and we all await the call. Forgive me for hopping on the box one last time. MW

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another option for the BOD every time/all the time group:

 

The shots on the "dump" target were actually "no count" misses on that last KD...failure to eventually knock it down = ONE MISS for the one still standing.

 

<_<

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Stage has 5 knock down plates for rifle and a dump target.

Instructions - Engage knock down targets left to right till down. Knock down targets still standing at end of string count as one miss each. (Misses on the knock down do not count as misses. Misses on the dump plate do count as misses). Place any remaining rounds on dump target.

(It should be noted that the plates fall slowly when hit with anything short of a 50cal)

 

Shooter shoots AND HITS all the knock down plates. Plate 5 starts to fall as shooter proceeds to the dump plate. Target 5 settles back into the original position about round two on the dump plate. Shooter spots standing dump plate and fires last round at the remaining knock down and hits the knock down again but still does not knock it down.

 

Actual call - A procedural and two misses.

 

How about:

 

"Non-SASS standard" target failure = RESHOOT

 

or

 

remove the stage from the match altogether...then no one has to worry about it.

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another option for the BOD every time/all the time group:

 

The shots on the "dump" target were actually "no count" misses on that last KD...failure to eventually knock it down = ONE MISS for the one still standing.

 

<_<

Even I can't buy that one :P (after all - it was the correct type of target)

 

I would go for the too tough to knock down theory

 

CR

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We have a similar rack, it's a Tombstone rack from DS welding, when I write it into stages I make it clear that if the shooter goes to the dump target and there are still plates up on the rack they earn a "P". I also indicate misses on the rack do not count as misses, misses on the dump target count as misses. If this is made clear in the stage instructions no one can complain when the get a P. If a plate fails to fall, as one local pard indicates, "It sucks to be you!"

 

TB

 

Have you considered removing that stipulation? It seems it would punish fast shooters or those using rather light loads. I've seen fast shooters who could mow through five rifle KDs and be on the dump plate before all the KDs had even fallen. If they thought they hit them all but one is still up they're screwed. I've also seen shooters hit KD targets and watch them start to move so they proceed to the dump target only to have the KD not go all the way down. (Such as in the OP) In either case the shooter has no chance to go back and clean up since you've already given them a P. In my mind that would only serve to slow down the shooter because they have to wait to ensure all targets are down before moving to the dump. I'm not at all trying to criticize you stage, simply offering an opinion on how it might be more fun.

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How about:

 

"Non-SASS standard" target failure = RESHOOT

 

or

 

remove the stage from the match altogether...then no one has to worry about it.

They just fall slowly..... No one else had a problem with them going all the way down. The targets just didn't react quickly.

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Even I can't buy that one :P (after all - it was the correct type of target)

 

I would go for the too tough to knock down theory

 

CR

19 other posse members had no problem with them going down........ They just fell slowly.

One lady was shooting a 32 cal Marlin and had no trouble knocking them down (I think she had to double tap one of them).

Shooters with 45s knocked them over reasonably fast.

 

1/2 AR plate does not move quickly.

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Ok.. just seeking clarification a little.. :blush:

My original call way back when was 1 miss + 1 "P"

 

Rethinking...

 

Shooter left a knockdown up before going to the dump target... = 1 miss.. Kinda' simple..

and then the shooter went to the dump target.. = 1 "P" (KD still standing) oops.. still kinda' simple..

At that point the dump target is the only target in play.. on his last shot he missed the dump target and it happened to go onto a Knockdown...

 

Could that or would that be the 2nd. miss??

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' yeah.. I'm surely confused :wacko:

Flog away.. I ain't sure either?? :blink:

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Ok.. just seeking clarification a little.. :blush:

My original call way back when was 1 miss + 1 "P"

 

Rethinking...

 

Shooter left a knockdown up before going to the dump target... = 1 miss.. Kinda' simple..

and then the shooter went to the dump target.. = 1 "P" (KD still standing) oops.. still kinda' simple..

At that point the dump target is the only target in play.. on his last shot he missed the dump target and it happened to go onto a Knockdown...

 

Could that or would that be the 2nd. miss??

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' yeah.. I'm surely confused :wacko:

Flog away.. I ain't sure either?? :blink:

 

Did you come up with this before or after reading post #88?

 

;)

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They just fall slowly..... No one else had a problem with them going all the way down. The targets just didn't react quickly.

 

I'm not going to debate the physics of balance and how shifting the center of gravity works...just a suggestion based on the "...short of a .50cal" comment.

 

so...every shooter was forced to wait until the KDs actually fell completely before moving to the dump target?

How many got nailed for that "P"?

 

REF: Philly Slim's post...

or, if it doesn't work properly, remove it from the match.

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We shoot this type of plate rack target almost every match and have gone through many machinations of these issues trying to nail down a good definition that works.

 

The most sensible so far has been that they are all correct type targets for the firearm used (in this case rifle) and that going to the dump before the plates are down is a P. Whether you have misses at the end of the string depends on whether the stage instructions say plates left up are a miss or whether the instructions say they are no miss bonus.

 

I can understand how it could be read a few other ways, but this has worked out well for us so far.

 

The question of how fast the targets fall is more of a "don't be a hard ass" issue. If the shooter is going too fast for the TO to be of any help, it's the shooter's problem to make sure the last shot on the last KD was adequate to send it down. No one in our club has ever questioned whether the physical target had finished falling before the dump was hit, merely the obvious fact that the hit on the final plate started it down. If the shooter needs to watch it for half a second to make sure it is going down, then that's what needs to be done. It's part of the instructions.

 

Several shooters have voiced a preference to me that they prefer alternating shots. Start on the solid target and alternate with the plate rack. That gives time for the targets to fall.

 

Personally, I like both since it gives variety to matches.

 

If the ROC wants to standardize the call if nothing else is defined so we can do it the same everywhere, fine with me. Consistency is great.

 

Please keep in mind that sometimes we like to make the plates no miss bonus.

 

Thanks,

 

- Fast

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The call hinges on the definition (which, BTW, has NOT been discussed by the ROC at this point...some of us are just returning from EoT, others are still enroute to their respective home bases).

 

The definition of what? I'm guessing "target sequence", but I couldn't tell for sure.

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The definition of what? I'm guessing "target sequence", but I couldn't tell for sure.

 

read the first line of that post...and the rest in that context.

 

I should've known better than to even get involved in this one.

Not going to spend the whole day justifying and explaining comments (whether made in jest or seriously)

 

Y'all do whatever you want...and call it however it works (or doesn't) at your range.

 

Local MDs can deal with it from this point.

 

<_<

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The definition of what? I'm guessing "target sequence", but I couldn't tell for sure.

I'm hoping to erase the second miss . A P for hitting a target out of sequence and a miss for not seems more than weird .

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Did you come up with this before or after reading post #88?

 

;)

Honestly when someone posted back on maybe page 2 they said 2 misses..

I thought now how in the heck could they call 2misses??

Been Thinkin about it ever since and that was the only way I could justify the 2 misses..

I just didn't have the kahuna's to post it as a possibility .. Wasn't looking forward to the scolding I'd probably have to endure..

In all honesty I didn't read all of you post # 88 until you mentioned "if I made the call based on that post.."

Reckon if I'd have read all your post I would have had the answer to my question..

Yeah.. Bad on my part.. Sorry..

 

Rance ;)

Thanks PaleWolf fer tolerating me.. :)

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Yawn, sorry, I dozed off for several pages, someone wake me up when we have a definitive answer.

 

I can see the logic and reasoning in several different answers, much the same as in the thread AM linked.

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