Dang It Dan 13202 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I have always wondered why the rules disallow having two loaded pistols out at the same time (with the exception of GF'r and B-Western). And, if a shooter wanted to shoot GF'r on a couple of stages during a match, why restrict him from doing so? I have competed in both the one-gun and two-gun categories so I feel like I know the ups and downs of both but I can't see a reason to keep this restriction in place. I guess you "may" say that it would diminish Gunfighter, or perhaps make B-Western less attractive, but I just don't see it that way. Why not open it up? Why not add some spice to your usual shooting style? I guess I don't see a down side here. What say you? (and before anyone starts with "why do some folk want to come into a sport and start changing it", I have been here for more than just a minute or two so I think i am qualified to ask this kind of question). Regards, Dang It Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I pushed for this for several years, and just couldn't get any support for it. Any category that currently allows one or two handed should allow GF IMHO. I would not allow in any duelist specific category. Good luck in your quest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 If you allowed that in any duelist category wouldn't that eventually eliminate "Gunfighter"?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Dan, because you have been involved in sooooo much of this sport from early on, I always figured you might know 'WHY' of this restriction. Anyhow, I surely don't know. I don't think doing away with it will diminish the GF category. In reality, it could enhance the Duelist category. Just my .02 ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waimea Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I know you've been around the block and I know you probably already thought of this yourself but I'll put it in writing. The powers that be in the olden days didn't even like the idea of the Gunfighter category. "somebody's gonna blow their hand off" So I SUSPECT that having a category devoted to folks that may be somewhat more experienced is a way to make sure that the newbie cowboy is going to get some experience with the sport before they branch out and try any "dangerous" two-handed shooting. Just my take. Waimea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Remember how GF's had to be certified when the category was first introduced? Having two loaded guns out was considered more hazardous by the people that where writing the rules. I think we all now know having two loaded guns out could be allowed in all categories, there is no safety reason to disallow it. But, at its heart CAS is a competition and differing shooting styles competing against each other isn't fair... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 If you allowed that in any duelist category wouldn't that eventually eliminate "Gunfighter"? Sorry, I should have also singled out Duelist. Obviously, you can't allow this in Duelist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 I know you've been around the block and I know you probably already thought of this yourself but I'll put it in writing. The powers that be in the olden days didn't even like the idea of the Gunfighter category. "somebody's gonna blow their hand off" So I SUSPECT that having a category devoted to folks that may be somewhat more experienced is a way to make sure that the newbie cowboy is going to get some experience with the sport before they branch out and try any "dangerous" two-handed shooting. Just my take. Waimea Waimea, I understand what you are saying but if I person is prone to have an accident, it doesn't matter if they are using one or two hands at the moment - folks shoot themselves using long guns as well, so I am going to say that I can't make that stretch with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 never mind Oh, you mean like Rank Point Scoring.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 If you allowed that in any duelist category wouldn't that eventually eliminate "Gunfighter"?? I can only think that a GFer will still want to shoot GFer and a Duelist will still want to shoot Duelist. A good many Duelist still only use their dominant hand although there are some who like Dbl Duelist and are great with their transitions. Alot of GFer's might be good using both pistols at the same time and switching back and forth between front site acquisitions, but they would lack some of those good transitions that alot of Duelist have. Of course, all that is just my .02 ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Oh, you mean like Rank Point Scoring.... Nope, just editing my reply... couldn't type fast enough and didn't want my reply to be taken wrong. Lets not talk about rank scoring!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Dan, Ain't you got nothing better to do? ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I think that shooting gunfighter in what was then the Traditional category was perceived to give an advantage to those who could actually shoot that way. You and others have long since debunked that theory. So there is no valid reason that I've heard not to allow two loaded guns out at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I shoot GF in age based from time to time, I let the TO know I'm gonna do it, take my P up front and have fun. Allowing it would seem to lessen the distinctiveness of the separate categories we have now. But then again even if allowed I don't see that many would make use of it, just as few age based folks shoot duelist style though they can. Though for most shooting duelist instead of two handed would severely slow them down. GF in age based on certain stages could be perceived as an advantage over two handed shooters though. In the long run I think it would help the GF category as folks could try it now and again without having to take a penalty or commit to shooting a whole match GF. Just a few thoughts from my saddle. Grizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waimea Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Waimea, I understand what you are saying but if I person is prone to have an accident, it doesn't matter if they are using one or two hands at the moment - folks shoot themselves using long guns as well, so I am going to say that I can't make that stretch with you. I was just speculating on maybe why they haven't opened it up. Shutting up now. Waimea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudgeBagodonuts Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I think a lot of shooters in the age categories would like the option to choose to shoot gunfighter style on some stages. Personally, even with a LOT of practice, I'm still a little slower shooting Gunfighter, because of the "thinking" involved (how many un-fired remaining in the right gun?), but there are some stages that would be advantageous to shoot that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 The Territorial Governors have consistently voted "NO" on such proposals...for various reasons. Some have a problem with GF shooters in general, ever since the inception of that category (and the annual changes to the rules over the following few years). Others see such an allowance as an intrusion on those categories that already allow two loaded revolvers out of leather at once. Same as the perceived DANGER! of allowing Cav/Twist Draw for GF/BW shooters; with the attendant prohibition on the use of X-draw, shoulder and "Huckleberry" rigs in those categories...even though it is allowed if only one loaded revolver is out at a time in ALL other categories. THAT has been the "kiss of death" for a number of (sensible, IMO) amendments...opening up the age-based and other categories to GF-style shooting carries with it the restriction on equipment; which would basically outlaw cross-draw style rigs (at least until such time as the TGs are convinced that it can be done SAFELY). JMO PWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I was at a match yesterday that had one stage that gave gunfighters an advantage. It was a double tap 5 target sweep. As a gunfighter, you just alternate shots on targets instead of trying to remember what target you ended your first pistol on. So if someone was skilled enough, they could exploit that in an aged based category. But that person would have to be competitive enough to want to exploit that, and skilled enough to do so. So I highly doubt just anyone could or would make use of it. So the point is that it really would be a non issue competition wise, but like, as some have mentioned, bring about a new found liking of that shooting style. I still remember the rush of shooting gunfighter for the first time. Personally, I would love to be able to use gunfighter in classic cowboy. If not, then I propose a new category. I call it Frontier Cartridge Classic Cowboy Gun Fighter (FCCCGF). It's the manliest category of them all because you use real smoke and flames, have to use the "big boy" calibers, and have to use both hands. What could be better than that? HAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I was at a match yesterday that had one stage that gave gunfighters an advantage. It was a double tap 5 target sweep. As a gunfighter, you just alternate shots on targets instead of trying to remember what target you ended your first pistol on. So if someone was skilled enough, they could exploit that in an aged based category. But that person would have to be competitive enough to want to exploit that, and skilled enough to do so. So I highly doubt just anyone could or would make use of it. So the point is that it really would be a non issue competition wise, but like, as some have mentioned, bring about a new found liking of that shooting style. I still remember the rush of shooting gunfighter for the first time. Personally, I would love to be able to use gunfighter in classic cowboy. If not, then I propose a new category. I call it Frontier Cartridge Classic Cowboy Gun Fighter (FCCCGF). It's the manliest category of them all because you use real smoke and flames, have to use the "big boy" calibers, and have to use both hands. What could be better than that? HAHA I have always thought Classic Cowboy should include GFer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted June 15, 2015 Author Share Posted June 15, 2015 I have always thought Classic Cowboy should include GFer. ^^^this^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 Everybody knows that supreme intelligence (we're talkin' rocket science level here) is required to shoot gunfighter style. Seriously, you have to count to ten......twice. Once with the rifle, then again with the pistols. Rocket science I'm telling you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 I was at a match yesterday that had one stage that gave gunfighters an advantage. It was a double tap 5 target sweep. As a gunfighter, you just alternate shots on targets instead of trying to remember what target you ended your first pistol on. So if someone was skilled enough, they could exploit that in an aged based category. But that person would have to be competitive enough to want to exploit that, and skilled enough to do so. So I highly doubt just anyone could or would make use of it. So the point is that it really would be a non issue competition wise, but like, as some have mentioned, bring about a new found liking of that shooting style. I still remember the rush of shooting gunfighter for the first time. Personally, I would love to be able to use gunfighter in classic cowboy. If not, then I propose a new category. I call it Frontier Cartridge Classic Cowboy Gun Fighter (FCCCGF). It's the manliest category of them all because you use real smoke and flames, have to use the "big boy" calibers, and have to use both hands. What could be better than that? HAHA LFCCCGF?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 FCCCGF? I will try it on for size, as long as it allows cap guns, 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 That's a good question. Can someone compete in FCGF with cap guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 That's a good question. Can someone compete in FCGF with cap guns? YES. REF: SHB p.15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Good question Dan. I have moved from age-based to FCD to GF/FCGF over the past three years. I enjoy shooting my 92s more than my 73s. (Original 92s rock!) I am thinking of switching to BW next year so that I can shoot in any style: two-handed, duelist and GF. I am too slow to be doing this for a competitive edge; I just enjoy shooting all 3 styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I see no problem with allowing it in all age based categories with ages 21 and above. I don't think the idea of allowing "non-adults" is a good idea for possible liability reasons. Holster requirements should be double strong side only to shoot "gunfighter style" in any category. I would like to do some more thinking on both for and against opinions. Maybe that the shooter would have to clearly declare their intent to shoot "gunfighter style" to the TO prior to the start of the shooter beginning the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I see no problem with allowing it in all age based categories with ages 21 and above. I don't think the idea of allowing "non-adults" is a good idea for possible liability reasons. Holster requirements should be double strong side only to shoot "gunfighter style" in any category. I would like to do some more thinking on both for and against opinions. Maybe that the shooter would have to clearly declare their intent to shoot "gunfighter style" to the TO prior to the start of the shooter beginning the stage. If you are old enough to die for your country you ought to be allowed to shoot gunfighter in my opinion. Actually I see no problem letting juniors do it if they can do so safely. I have been scared by at least as many traditional senior citizens as I have by juniors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 If I had a magic wand I would creat a men's and ladies open category. Any age any legal gun shot in any style as the shooter sees fit. Shooting while moving would be allowed (as the stages permit) only in this class and this class would not be included in the overall scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I would personally have no problem with it. 3 clubs at that I shoot at offer a "Open" or "Master Gunfighter" category. it is pretty much all I shoot at home anymore and allows me to be a bit more flexible depending on what I feel like shooting that day. A couple of times my good pard Straight Arrow Hombre will shoot together in the category and change our shooting styles on stage to stage. Lots of fun and gets the juices flowing a bit more than just shooting the same old thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Scratch Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 being a gunfighter I have one good question on this matter Why on God's Green Earth would any self respecting Cowboy/Cowgirl want to shoot with two hands on one Gun Chicken Scratch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 I would personally have no problem with it. 3 clubs at that I shoot at offer a "Open" or "Master Gunfighter" category. it is pretty much all I shoot at home anymore and allows me to be a bit more flexible depending on what I feel like shooting that day. A couple of times my good pard Straight Arrow Hombre will shoot together in the category and change our shooting styles on stage to stage. Lots of fun and gets the juices flowing a bit more than just shooting the same old thing. That's what I tried to get folks to do with the All Around Cowboy deal a couple of years ago. You will never appreciate the skill set of folks who shoot the other styles until you have to do it in competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Rules are written to stir up discussion, didn't you know that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I would personally have no problem with it. 3 clubs at that I shoot at offer a "Open" or "Master Gunfighter" category. it is pretty much all I shoot at home anymore and allows me to be a bit more flexible depending on what I feel like shooting that day. A couple of times my good pard Straight Arrow Hombre will shoot together in the category and change our shooting styles on stage to stage. Lots of fun and gets the juices flowing a bit more than just shooting the same old thing. That's what I tried to get folks to do with the All Around Cowboy deal a couple of years ago. You will never appreciate the skill set of folks who shoot the other styles until you have to do it in competition. My local club has a special category for just such fun. Each stage has to be shot using a specific style. 2 will be designated traditional two handed, 2 Duelist, and 2 gunfighter. Several of us started out together shooting it and had a lot of fun as we watched each others train wrecks and brain farts. However we all quickly improved at shootig Duelist and GF. As a result several of us have discovered that we prefer to shoot something other than two handed. Our club now has a regular entrant in Lady Gun Fighter and Duelist has more participants as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Spurs Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 If you are old enough to die for your country you ought to be allowed to shoot gunfighter in my opinion. Actually I see no problem letting juniors do it if they can do so safely. I have been scared by at least as many traditional senior citizens as I have by juniors. How can anyone NOT agree with both of those things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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