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Captain Bill Burt

What is SASS: Club or Business?

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All the recent posts and discussions regarding clothing rules, particularly the comments made by members of the Wild Bunch, have got me to thinking about the nature of the relationship between SASS members/customers and SASS Management/Ownership.

 

It seems to me that the way people view their relationship to SASS has a lot to do with how they react to some of the issues being raised. For example it seems that people who view SASS as a business and themselves as customers are a lot less likely to feel obligated to defer to the wishes of the Wild Bunch and a lot more likely to feel entitled to (respectively) express contrary views (count me in this group). Those who view SASS as a club, seem to be more likely to defer decisions to the Wild Bunch and view membership as a privilege that carries certain responsibilities that aren't typical in customer business relationships.

 

So, I'm curious as to how you view SASS, and why. I would also like to know if your view of the organization is related to how you view Wild Bunch opinions and directives.

 

Disclaimer. This may be a short-lived thread, or a long one with lots of interesting discussion, but in either case I hope no one will be attacked for not sharing a particular view.

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I feel SASS is a business and must be ran as one to survive. A club is the same way. However, the club is where all my best friends are, every week. And I make new ones every month. So it's different to me.

But still a business. All businesses must have someone in charge to make the final decision. In our case, it's the Wild Bunch. With the many many different personalities and opinions of our membership, no decision made can please everyone, sometime anyone. I make decisions for the company I work for. Not always popular or agreed with, but from my position and viewpoint, I make the best decisions I can -for the company. That is my job. Wild Bunch is in the exact same position.

 

Just my view from here.

Mark

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Don't think it will be very long if it get hot,Mrs Allie is back.It is a BUSINESS and a good one.When gun companies name guns SASS guns it is not a little business.I hope that it stays in business so I can keep shooting and dress up in my cowboy stuff.

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SASS is a Business. Any one who does not realize and accept that just does not know or understand the structure. It developed the Cowboy Action Shooting Game, and it over sees that game. Over time it has allowed those who play the game to have input as to how the game is played. It is the sanctioning body for CLUBS who wish to be associated with SASS, and it provide certain services to those clubs.

 

Snakebite

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I see it this way


several score years ago: some fellers started a club,


it grew into a business


and the business now has clubs operating under their rules / guidlines



I for one am very glad they started this here shin dig


and would like to see it continue on


:D:lol::D



be it a business or a club


we could all act a bit more mature at times on the wire playground


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I see it this way

several score years ago: some fellers started a club,

it grew into a business

and the business now has clubs operating under their rules / guidlines

 

I for one am very glad they started this here shin dig

and would like to see it continue on

:D:lol::D

 

+1

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SASS is a Business. Any one who does not realize and accept that just does not know or understand the structure. It developed the Cowboy Action Shooting Game, and it over sees that game. Over time it has allowed those who play the game to have input as to how the game is played. It is the sanctioning body for CLUBS who wish to be associated with SASS, and it provide certain services to those clubs.

 

Snakebite

I agree completely. Basic economics says the goal of a business is profit maximization. Of course there are businesses that stray slightly from that goal based on religious beliefs, but basically the vast majority of the time the bottom line is profit, differing approaches perhaps, but the same goal.

 

So would becoming more restrictive in terms of clothing requirements be a profit maximizing move for SASS? Will membership decline and if so will satisfaction for the remaining members increase enough to allow an offsetting price increase on remaining members? Or will membership increase?

 

If we're customers, what obligations do we have to ownership and what obligations do they have to us, if any?

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It is a business. I think the more pertinent question is: how do you perceive your payment to SASS? Are you paying a membership fee or an access/participation fee?

 

For me, it is strictly an access fee. SASS is not a membership organization. It is a business owned by and ran by the Wild Bunch. I pay dues or fees (did, now a Life "Member") which allows me to participate in SASS-sanctioned events, namely shooting competitions.

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I think that changing the rules on clothing it would hurt SASS. Some people (I for one)are on fixed income.If they raise the fees I would have to stop shooting.I dress as cowboy as I can.

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SASS is a business.

 

I do have local non profit clubs.

And I am a member of those clubs.

 

But SASS it's self. Pure business.

Even though it is a membership fee.

I feel I am a customer of SASS.

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It's a business and a very successful one at that! ;) Rye

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Don't think it will be very long if it get hot,Mrs Allie is back.It is a BUSINESS and a good one.When gun companies name guns SASS guns it is not a little business.I hope that it stays in business so I can keep shooting and dress up in my cowboy stuff.

+1

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Sass is a Business which provides a service commiserate with it's fee for that service.

 

I shoot at non-profit Clubs that utilize SASS Rules, which are now developed mainly by SASS Customers.

 

SASS as a Business provides good value for it's service fee.

 

I enjoy the sport the Wild Bunch created and the fee they collect is reasonable for the service they provide.

 

The SASS Business / Customer relationship is unusual, but seems to be working for the benefit of both the Business and the Customers.

 

Until the Relationship no longer works, why complain ?

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Howdy:

 

I do believe it is a business. As such, it can change the product it offers on pure whim. However, any business that deliberately goes out of its way to lose customers, is doomed. One way to stay in business is to adapt to your clientel's needs and wants. But, the CEO can certainly change the direction of his company as he/she sees fit. Well run and long lived companies adapt! Just ask yourself how may buggy whip manufacturers are still around - failure to adapt????

 

STL Suomi

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SASS is a business, for profit business. As a business, the owners can do whatever they so desire. They can run it into the ground or nurture it and watch it prosper. Some business owners will lament policy decisions such as company dress and/or employee equipment requirements. As a business owner, that is to be expected.

 

As an employee of a business owner, I can only expect a regular paycheck and respect for a job well done. At almost all jobs, there are slackers. You know, the ones who come in late everyday, refuse to conform to company policy and demand respect from their fellow workers for a job not at all well done. We've all seen them, worked with them and at times, loathed them. Did the owner ever come out to address and berate the entire workforce for the actions of a few? Not in any company I've ever worked for.

 

With all of that said, I'm not an employee of SASS. I consider myself a member, a dues paying member. I pay my dues in a timely manner, don't violate the rules, heed SASS policy and appreciate the opportunity to be part of the fellowship that SASS membership provides. I wouldn't trade the last 16+ years for anything in the world.

 

CS

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I will not blindly follow any man, and any man worth following would not ask me to.

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SASS is a business, for profit business. As a business, the owners can do whatever they so desire. They can run it into the ground or nurture it and watch it prosper. Some business owners will lament policy decisions such as company dress and/or employee equipment requirements. As a business owner, that is to be expected.

 

As an employee of a business owner, I can only expect a regular paycheck and respect for a job well done. At almost all jobs, there are slackers. You know, the ones who come in late everyday, refuse to conform to company policy and demand respect from their fellow workers for a job not at all well done. We've all seen them, worked with them and at times, loathed them. Did the owner ever come out to address and berate the entire workforce for the actions of a few? Not in any company I've ever worked for.

 

With all of that said, I'm not an employee of SASS. I consider myself a member, a dues paying member. I pay my dues in a timely manner, don't violate the rules, heed SASS policy and appreciate the opportunity to be part of the fellowship that SASS membership provides. I wouldn't trade the last 16+ years for anything in the world.

 

CS

I find that interesting. I've been trying to think of a business model similar to that of SASS and the first thing that came to mind is a Country Club. I've never been a member of one, but I've been as a guest and it seems similar. Basically you're paying for access and must also abide by the rules to get that access.

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I think your analysis of how people "feel" about SASS depends on whether they are a customer or a member is a good one. Certain people will have a certain attitude no matter what the structure of an organization is. SCCA, USPSA, the NRA and a host of other "businesses" sell what they call memberships. When you are a member of most organizations you have no input into the business decisions of that organization. Yes, SASS is a business but they have done a remarkable job creating an organization and atmosphere of goodwill and fellowship. I have a Life "membership." I'm not a stock holder, I'm not a participant in the business decisions of the organization. Yet, I feel I do belong to something that the vast, vast, majority of "members" feel is an entertaining and fun organization. The vitriol is mostly here on the wire. I don't hear any arguments about whether someone is a member or customer of SASS at any shoots.

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Everyone seams to agree that SASS is a business. They provide services for a fee, and restrict people who have not paid that fee from participating in certain events (must be a SASS member to compete in State level or above matches) We all seem to understand that. however I am not sure the Wild Bunch understands it. or more precisely I am not sure they understand that the Relationship between company and customer works better for both if you can put personal Ego aside and look at what will grow and strengthen that relationship.

 

Also I have seen SEVERAL people "thank the wild bunch for inventing CAS"

 

They DID NOT INVENT Cowboy Action Shooting!!!!!!!!!

 

They have done an amazing job of taking an EXISTING product (CAS) and organizing it on an international level.

 

they have helped the sport standardize, and Grow. They have made huge inroads with companys to provide products for us, there customers, and brought a very large customer base to copmpanys like Uberti, Ruger, and Wild west mercantile. benefiting both the company and the customers.

 

But PLEASE quit thanking them for taking credit for an existing Idea. its like thanking Obama for inventing war

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Business! Next shooter.

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SASS clearly is a for profit business, but a very unique one. They have a small group of owners, physical assets, a very few paid employees, and a very very large group of volunteer workers that make the business suceede. They provide many services to the many users (I have avoided using members or customers but both likely apply) of their company. They provide a framework for our competitions (rules and other), they host a World Championship and other matches at Founders Ranch, provide guidance to clubs that sponsor other matches from little to very large, and provide a framework for training in our sport. SASS supports and encourages others to sponsor both state championship and regional matches. SASS provides communications and guidance for other matches around the world. SASS has income and tons of expenses like most business. As far as profits and loss of the company, I do not know, nor should I know, and do not care unless they go out of business, which would create a really big void. Most buisnesses have a succesion plan for its key executives, I am not certain the same can be said of SASS and that would worry me as an owner. The SASS owners have done something a bit unique in that they let non ownership help in the key decisions for the company, especially in the rules area.

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I The vitriol is mostly here on the wire. I don't hear any arguments about whether someone is a member or customer of SASS at any shoots.

To busy shootin, drinkin, playin poker, havin fun for any shennanigans like that....

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It's more like the GoodWill store. The local clubs donate everything in terms of time and money that makes the business end of SASS possible. SASS then sells it back to us in the name of mantaining cohesion.

 

It has thus far done that job. It has maintained cohesion in the face of hundreds of individual clubs all doing things their own way. It provides the necessary similarities between shoots and a rule book with safety standards.

 

It's what we have. I think a lot of us would prefer a nonprofit sporting organization where the regional directors of the sport make the best decisions for it...

 

But we each choose to belong to SASS every year. And it has worked for a couple of decades now. It's like showing up to a rank points match. We agree to play by the rules presented when we sign up. We may frequently disagree with them... but we figure we are better under the umbrella than out from under it.

 

Those of us who came into this thing more recently, that is, after the membership was already tens of thousands of people strong really do see this thing as a shooting sport. I'm sorry if the WB did not/does not want that but with this many people participating... that's what it is like it or not. We keep hoping they'll suddenly starting doing the things sporting organizations do. Hence the threads about honoring champions etc...

 

They could at any time codify in the front of the rulebook that SASS is a family friendly shooting sport where you can compete as much or as little as you like. They can codify that sharing gear and camping and cookouts are part and parcel to what this sport is about. That we intend to be the friendly shooting sport you just don't get anywhere else. Easy to get started and impossible to master.

 

But I'm not convinced this is how they see the business. I really can not tell what legacy they intend to leave.

 

Time will tell. I wish both the WB and the shooting customers the very best in the years going forward.

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I find that interesting. I've been trying to think of a business model similar to that of SASS and the first thing that came to mind is a Country Club. I've never been a member of one, but I've been as a guest and it seems similar. Basically you're paying for access and must also abide by the rules to get that access.

That's right. I don't have to be a USGA member to play golf. But I do to play in USGA events. Plus I get a free bowl of soup with the purchase of a hat.

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Everyone seams to agree that SASS is a business. They provide services for a fee, and restrict people who have not paid that fee from participating in certain events (must be a SASS member to compete in State level or above matches) We all seem to understand that. however I am not sure the Wild Bunch understands it. or more precisely I am not sure they understand that the Relationship between company and customer works better for both if you can put personal Ego aside and look at what will grow and strengthen that relationship.

 

Also I have seen SEVERAL people "thank the wild bunch for inventing CAS"

 

They DID NOT INVENT Cowboy Action Shooting!!!!!!!!!

 

They have done an amazing job of taking an EXISTING product (CAS) and organizing it on an international level.

 

they have helped the sport standardize, and Grow. They have made huge inroads with companys to provide products for us, there customers, and brought a very large customer base to copmpanys like Uberti, Ruger, and Wild west mercantile. benefiting both the company and the customers.

 

But PLEASE quit thanking them for taking credit for an existing Idea. its like thanking Obama for inventing war

 

 

If "they" didn't "who" did ?

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If "they" didn't "who" did ?

I think some form of CAS existed...but it was the WB that took it to the next step...organized nationally...

 

Think about it like you've invented a new gadget...that takes some hard work and sacrifice. I've been involved in developing products...and I've come to learn that that's the easy part. The hard part is selling it.

 

The WB sold it...and I appreciate them taking that leap of faith...took some guts.

 

Oh, and yes, it's a business. Unfortunately, they are in my opinion very understaffed. They all have to wear a bunch of hats...and try and make as many of us members "happy" as they can. We expect them to do everything perfect...and do it quickly. That's not fair to them...IMHO.

 

I hope SASS becomes bigger...and more successful during my lifetime...as I want the game/sport/hobby/pastime...whatever you want to call it, to go on long after I've kicked the bucket.

 

Phantom

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Everyone seams to agree that SASS is a business. They provide services for a fee, and restrict people who have not paid that fee from participating in certain events (must be a SASS member to compete in State level or above matches) We all seem to understand that. however I am not sure the Wild Bunch understands it. or more precisely I am not sure they understand that the Relationship between company and customer works better for both if you can put personal Ego aside and look at what will grow and strengthen that relationship.

 

Also I have seen SEVERAL people "thank the wild bunch for inventing CAS"

 

They DID NOT INVENT Cowboy Action Shooting!!!!!!!!!

 

They have done an amazing job of taking an EXISTING product (CAS) and organizing it on an international level.

 

they have helped the sport standardize, and Grow. They have made huge inroads with companys to provide products for us, there customers, and brought a very large customer base to copmpanys like Uberti, Ruger, and Wild west mercantile. benefiting both the company and the customers.

 

But PLEASE quit thanking them for taking credit for an existing Idea. its like thanking Obama for inventing war

While clearly not debating who invented CAS, I do find it interesting that the first Az State Championship of Cowboy Shooting was held in 1981 at Cowtown near Phoenix (just down the road from the Ben Avery Shooting facility where Winter Range is held today). Later in 1987 Cowtown hosted the very first SASS sanctioned match. The first Cowboy Chronicle detailing the very first SASS sanctioned match in 1987 and the history of Cowtown showing the first Az state championship in 1981 can be found at:

 

http://www.ccsa-az.us/user/Cowtown%20History.pdf

 

and

 

http://www.ccsa-az.us/user/History-1988.pdf

 

 

or see the index for "history"

 

http://www.ccsa-az.us/index.htm

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A real good question Capt. Five years ago I took on a consultant role at my company that took me away from day to day business operations. For the last 5 years I have done volunteer, ministry and hobby business activities. Five years ago I would have and in fact did answer the same that it is a business. Today my answer would seem wacko to some because I would say it is neither club nor business and both. To me the best "business model" to describe SASS is a church. Ask any Minister or Pastor and they will tell you that without the volunteers there would be no church. Ask anyone who has served in a leadership capacity at a church and he will tell you managing volunteers is like herding cats. Not impossible but it keeps you on your toes. In most churches you have a CEO/Pastor that establishes the direction and mission of the organization, a paid staff that administrates his plan, and a set of Elders that support him and hold him accountable to the organization, even though he may actually own it. He usually thinks God owns it and he would be right. Yet even he submits to a higher earthly authority to hold him ethically accountable. If your a Christian you have accepted that you must submit to the "proper" authorities. If you are an employee of a business you have by contract accepted the leadership of others. Both should operate and cooperate to further the goals of their organizations. Now if your a customer of either one of these organizations your satisfaction with that org is entirely dependant on how well they are managed. So to me the problem with viewing it as strictly a business is it discounts all the volunteers, without whose service, would make things more expensive or not available. Yea, its legally a business as is a church and you can get real authoritive with it. But what about all those cats in mentioned earlier. We are the cats. The rank and file shooters. And lots of bad things happen when the volunteers are not supported... especially in a church. I've been embroiled in the politics of the church and want no part of that or the politics of SASS. Not as a volunteer. Most Americans believe if we put our money, time and passion into something that we somehow have been promoted to a position of say so...Not so with God but thats for Sunday. Cowboys, like me, being of an independant spirit sometimes only put faith in ourselves. Everything is not black or white...sometimes it's gray. So from here I could digress into a big me and what I would do...but I am not in charge. I see major issues for SASS and it's future due to a variety of issues. But for your question I think the best way to look at it is we put our coins in the offering plate to keep the lights on and enjoy the celebration that could not exist if not for some tireless and unheralded volunteers. Meow. DC

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I didn't read many of the above post so my present mind set is as such:

 

SASS is a business whose success is based on Clubs and the growth of those Clubs, mainly thru memberships.

 

SASS would be nothing without clubs.

 

The TN State match isn't organized, maintained or established by our Governor or any administrative body of government, local or otherwise.

 

It is organized and maintained by the local club, The Wartrace Regulators, which operate under SASS guidelines, rules, etc.....

 

Just my initial thought.

 

Now, I think I'll go back and read some post.

 

 

..........Widder

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Our family stumbled upon CAS, and shortly thereafter SASS, quite by accident. Thank you, thank you, thank you, whoever set up all the infrastructure for this great sport. Next, a small fortune spent on our constantly evolving perceived need for different or more guns, clothing and gear. Then, much later, it was like the little kid asking, "Mommy, where did this great sport come from and who is in charge?" And while the answer may be interesting, it doesn't affect me one way or the other.

 

While no business can satisfy 100% of its customers 100% of the time, the greater part of the relationship between SASS owners/management and its customer/members seems to be still working pretty well. I will call myself a "member" (because I choose to), and respect the guys who had the vision (or cojones) to start this business first. And if I don't like something, I'm gonna express my opinion - politely, but persistently.

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I am the member of a "Club", that is assoc. with a "business". Much the same way as motorcycle "clubs/chapters" are assoc. with a "Business"

 

I have noticed that S.A.S.S. is trademarked, as are the logos for it's big shoots.

 

We build the stages, donate our time, and then pay them to shoot.

 

I'm not sure being a "member" of SASS is the right word.

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SASS is a business.

 

CAS is a sport.

 

Pit Bull Tex: there has been no change in the rules; just reinforcing.

 

St. Louis Seiomi: SASS shouldn't adapt to customer needs and wants due to rules that have been on the books for years ... since late 70's when rules were written. After 30+ years, the rules seem to be working well.

 

Cypress Sun: Well put!!

 

Larsen E. Pettifoger: Well put!!

 

Gawd Awful: And just WHO DID invent SASS/CAS????? Judge Roy Bean, SASS #1 came up with the idea of CAS in the late 70's. SASS was organized in the early-mid 80's. I know .... I SLEEP WITH THE JUDGE!!!

 

Escopita Jake: Thanks!!

 

Gold Canyon Kid: see response to Gawd Awful.

 

Widowmaker Hill: Look forward to seeing you in Tennessee for the state match.

 

Justice Lily Kate

SASS #1000, Life & Regulator

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Business!:

 

Single Action Shooting Society Business Information

Single Action Shooting Society also does business as Sass .


Business Information

Location Type Single Location

Annual Revenue Estimate $460,000
Employees 13
Year Established 1987

 

State of Incorporation New Mexico

SIC Code 7997, Membership Sports and Recreation Clubs
NAICS Code 713940, Fitness and Recreational Sports Centers

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