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Captain Bill Burt

What is SASS: Club or Business?

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Your observations are probably valid regarding the viewpoints of each.

 

Myself, I'm just happy it exists and to be a part of it. There are way more important things to stress about than a particular brand of jeans in this world.

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Thanks Dash!

....

Those of us who came into this thing more recently, that is, after the membership was already tens of thousands of people strong really do see this thing as a shooting sport. I'm sorry if the WB did not/does not want that but with this many people participating... that's what it is like it or not. We keep hoping they'll suddenly starting doing the things sporting organizations do. Hence the threads about honoring champions etc...

 

They could at any time codify in the front of the rulebook that SASS is a family friendly shooting sport where you can compete as much or as little as you like. They can codify that sharing gear and camping and cookouts are part and parcel to what this sport is about. That we intend to be the friendly shooting sport you just don't get anywhere else. Easy to get started and impossible to master.

 

But I'm not convinced this is how they see the business. I really can not tell what legacy they intend to leave.

 

Time will tell. I wish both the WB and the shooting customers the very best in the years going forward.

I think you've made an important point here. Not to paint with too broad a brush, but it seems reasonable that recent members would be more likely to view things that way and therefore likely to view how the WB conducts the business differently than 'old timers'. Of course I'm sure there are exceptions on both sides, but I wonder if this is a part of all the acrimony over dress codes.

 

SASS has certainly grown into a unique organization with unique challenges.

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Whatever one may think, SASS has provided us with an outlet for 10s of thousands to form clubs, be united in a set of rules and requirements so each shooter as he travels to different clubs and events knows what to expect as they sign up in a category, its requirement, and rules to follow so each shooter is on an equal plane that enters that category. SASS has over the decades brought shooters and their family together to form a tight knit group to enjoy, and shoot safely. SASS has worked, compared to othet discipline shooting games, each of us has walked away from eaxh match, large or small as winners, vowing to return, which we do. Its also unique in that sometimes comaradie, is more valuable than the trophies, buckles or ribbons.

Nothing in the rules, requirement are hard to achieve, not out of place. The firearms maybe the most expensive, as is the ammo and leather required. Least is the "C" part os CAS. Asking us to dress the part to add a flavor, and distinction to the game.

As time passes, SASS may need to remind us, change, update, or add to rules, and requirements. As one, SASS, that got each of us into CAS, joining a club, and being a part of a unique way of blending historical firearms, and dressing as we compete in the games. Were else, can one step out, with an alias, and be something/someone you always wished to be?

The WB does a great job in keeping us organized, otherwise reading some positives and negatives on what individuals, or clubs would like to see and do, we would be in disaray in no time. MT

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And just WHO DID invent SASS/CAS????? Judge Roy Bean, SASS #1 came up with the idea of CAS in the late 70's. SASS was organized in the early-mid 80's. I know .... I SLEEP WITH THE JUDGE!!!

 

 

Justice Lily Kate

SASS #1000, Life & Regulator

How lewd! :lol: Rye

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Gawd Awful: And just WHO DID invent SASS/CAS????? Judge Roy Bean, SASS #1 came up with the idea of CAS in the late 70's. SASS was organized in the early-mid 80's. I know .... I SLEEP WITH THE JUDGE!!!

 

 

Gold Canyon Kid: see response to Gawd Awful.

 

 

Justice Lily Kate

SASS #1000, Life & Regulator

I mean no disrespect, however

 

1) if cowtown held the first "state championship" in 81, common sense dictates it was being done on some level in AZ for at least a year or Two before 81

 

2) I worked with a guy in the 90s (before i ever heard of SASS) who told me stories of him and some buddies in Utah doing something very simaler to what we do when they where teenagers just with real rifles. And since he retired in the late 90s I assume he was a teenager in the 30s or 40s

 

I also remember stories from my history class in highschol of actual cowboys competing in completions with guns to measure speed and accuracy.

 

Again. I give them HUGE amounts or respect for taking an Existing GAME and doing all they have with it.

 

Football was around before NFL

 

People competed with cowboy guns before SASS

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Howdy:

 

"St. Louis Seiomi: SASS shouldn't adapt to customer needs and wants due
to rules that have been on the books for years ... since late 70's when
rules were written. After 30+ years, the rules seem to be working well."

 

I heard statements exactly like that 50 years ago when I worked for Sears Catalog - where are they now?

 

Chambray work shirts have been around prior to 1900. Levis/Wranglers in one form or another have been around since 1873 (probably much longer sans rivets). So How does this map to your rules? Seems to me that they are completely within the rules as they stand. JMHO

 

STL Suomi

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St. Louis Seiomi: SASS shouldn't adapt to customer needs and wants due to rules that have been on the books for years ... since late 70's when rules were written. After 30+ years, the rules seem to be working well.

Justice Lily Kate
SASS #1000, Life & Regulator

 

-A minor point, and also, no disrespect here:

 

I am not sure what you are referring to as "rules" but I was one of the original authors of the first Rule Book which was about 1999. When I joined, there were no standardized rules per se. So, I am sure that you may be referring to some general rules that had existed prior to our efforts, but the "rules" at that time varied widely from match to match.

 

Regards,

 

Dang It Dan

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That's right. I don't have to be a USGA member to play golf. But I do to play in USGA events. Plus I get a free bowl of soup with the purchase of a hat.

 

:D I am also a USGA Member ~ love the game....the hat, I put it back on the rack like Judge Smails did :lol:

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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It seems to me that as SASS grows ever larger it becomes increasingly more difficult to run it as it was originally organized. Newer members have less connection to the founders and tend to view SASS as a shooting sport and themselves as customers.

 

This is probably not as evident at the club to member level, where the volunteer nature of the club officers is more obvious. For example I don't view myself as a customer of the local clubs I belong to, mainly because none of them are trying to make a profit from my payments to them, and also because I feel I have a voice in the 'product'.

 

The member to national organization relationship looks a lot more like a customer/corporate one in which customers buy because they see the purchase as a net benefit, or don't because they value their money more than the product. In this relationship it seems a little harder to communicate with ownership, which is typical of corporations, AND ownership seems a little less interested in customer views which is NOT typical of a corporation.

 

I think a typical corporation would look at the clothing issue from a purely cost benefit perspective. For example, if we exclude people who want to dress down will total membership go up enough to compensate for the lost revenues, or will we be able to increase price enough to compensate if total membership goes down. Or, if we allow people to dress down will membership....you get the point.

 

I don't think this is the analysis that Tex is doing (I'm not implying that he should be doing it), and I therefore wonder how he views SASS and what his goals are for it.

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SASS, started as a game. Became a "business", when it was realized that $$$$ could be made by the founders.

Dues and more, are paid to 'play-the-game'.

As dues pay'n members(customers), I or any member have a right to voice an opinion. Where not 'sheep'......

LG

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I am happy to be a paying customer of SASS the "Business" but I believe that CAS is now a genre. It can be and is played all over the world in slightly varying forms without SASS. Thankfully, SASS exists and has established a rules set that can be shared throughout as a guideline which more or less keeps most membership of "Clubs" on a similar page from locale to locale with exception to small details that might better suit individual clubs. I also believe that If an event is sanctioned by SASS, then SASS rules should be applied to the letter and any penalties should be embraced by all participants without resistance. It's all good.

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O.K., SASS is a business, fine.( One I'm glad that is here.)

 

We will leave that as it is.

 

The brouhaha started over "costuming". We are NOT a "historically correct" entity.

We are supposed to be a bunch of old farts playin' a "childs" game. How many of us as kids played Cowboys with tennis shoes on? Remember those broom sticks with horse heads on them? Well if little Jimmy didn't have one, we'd find an apropreate faxcimile and off we went. Hey, we did the best we could.

 

Tex is sayin' we gotta try a little harder is all. The "costuming" has fallen by the way side a bit.

When Wronggun and I started, and joined SASS, we had the clothes from being in Historically correct clubs. It's not costuming to us....these are our clothes.

 

Getting the guns and leather for this period was.

 

A lot of people, mostly the "newer" folks just starting out, just got their guns and leather, boots, hat et.al. Within the last year?

Some of the veteran shooters have been at it forever, and quite frankly...... look like it. ;)

 

We get asked about our clothes a lot, "Where did you get that?" Or "How do did you find that?" and of course "I bet that was expensive".

After a short conversation, "WOW We NEVER thought of that!!!"

At the next match....... it is amazing!

 

I'm truly sorry to say this guys............

It's NOT just about the guns. -_-

 

Lets help each other, and the newer folks not only be better shooters, but better "dressers" too! ;)

 

Regards

Knarley Bob

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SASS is a sanctioning business. They establish rules and sanction clubs, events and shooters. They are not the only sanctioning group (think NCOWS), jut the largest. Though I have been a SASS member since the late 80s and had a hand in starting 2 early SASS clubs in northern California, I feel no great attachment to SASS per say. My loyalty has always been to my club(s), a number of which were not SASS sanctioned.

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It seems to me that as SASS grows ever larger it becomes increasingly more difficult to run it as it was originally organized. Newer members have less connection to the founders and tend to view SASS as a shooting sport and themselves as customers.

 

This is probably not as evident at the club to member level, where the volunteer nature of the club officers is more obvious. For example I don't view myself as a customer of the local clubs I belong to, mainly because none of them are trying to make a profit from my payments to them, and also because I feel I have a voice in the 'product'.

 

The member to national organization relationship looks a lot more like a customer/corporate one in which customers buy because they see the purchase as a net benefit, or don't because they value their money more than the product. In this relationship it seems a little harder to communicate with ownership, which is typical of corporations, AND ownership seems a little less interested in customer views which is NOT typical of a corporation.

 

I think a typical corporation would look at the clothing issue from a purely cost benefit perspective. For example, if we exclude people who want to dress down will total membership go up enough to compensate for the lost revenues, or will we be able to increase price enough to compensate if total membership goes down. Or, if we allow people to dress down will membership....you get the point.

 

I don't think this is the analysis that Tex is doing (I'm not implying that he should be doing it), and I therefore wonder how he views SASS and what his goals are for it.

Not that the WB has to (they are the owners) but it would be informative to hear what they have to say on how they view SASS and their goals for it.

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Not that the WB has to (they are the owners) but it would be informative to hear what they have to say on how they view SASS and their goals for it.

I agree with both your points Kajun. It would be interesting to hear their goals, but they have no obligation to share them. It seems to me that responsibilities go both ways. If it's their thing and they can do with it as they wish (I believe that's fair) then the people who pay them for access have a right to express their feelings about the product and any anticipated changes to the product.

 

I've never heard of a business criticizing people because their preferences don't line up with the businesses product. They either ignore them as being not part of their target market, or try to align the product more closely to what the market is demanding.

 

Thanks for you comment Knarley, but if you don't mind this thread isn't intended to address clothing disputes directly. It seems to me that clothing arguments are a symptom of a deeper dispute, not the root cause. Therefore I'm trying to discuss what I view as the cause rather than the effect.

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...business fashioned along the lines of a benevolent dictatorship...

 

...those truly involved see this a business but at the local club level it is more of a club due to the many and various close relationship that are made... ...for instance, our folks do more than just shoot together... ...we have social occasions, such as dinner and movie night...

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I too think that if "SASS Inc." would state their position, a more informed conversation could be had.

 

So, what say ye SASS? We have not heard from you, and quite frankly.....We need to.

Your time would be appreciated.

Knarley

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O.K., SASS is a business, fine.( One I'm glad that is here.)

 

We will leave that as it is.

 

The brouhaha started over "costuming". We are NOT a "historically correct" entity.

We are supposed to be a bunch of old farts playin' a "childs" game. How many of us as kids played Cowboys with tennis shoes on? Remember those broom sticks with horse heads on them? Well if little Jimmy didn't have one, we'd find an apropreate faxcimile and off we went. Hey, we did the best we could.

 

Tex is sayin' we gotta try a little harder is all. The "costuming" has fallen by the way side a bit.

When Wronggun and I started, and joined SASS, we had the clothes from being in Historically correct clubs. It's not costuming to us....these are our clothes.

 

Getting the guns and leather for this period was.

 

A lot of people, mostly the "newer" folks just starting out, just got their guns and leather, boots, hat et.al. Within the last year?

Some of the veteran shooters have been at it forever, and quite frankly...... look like it. ;)

 

We get asked about our clothes a lot, "Where did you get that?" Or "How do did you find that?" and of course "I bet that was expensive".

After a short conversation, "WOW We NEVER thought of that!!!"

At the next match....... it is amazing!

 

I'm truly sorry to say this guys............

It's NOT just about the guns. -_-

 

Lets help each other, and the newer folks not only be better shooters, but better "dressers" too! ;)

 

Regards

Knarley Bob

 

For me it's more about the PEOPLE than the guns, shooting, clothing, etc....my pard BT Blade said to me (and many others I reckon) that 'you may come for the shooting, but you'll stay for the people' - even for some reason SASS disappeared I have made a number of friends in this game that will most likely be lifelong ;)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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For me it's more about the PEOPLE than the guns, shooting, clothing, etc....my pard BT Blade said to me (and many others I reckon) that 'you may come for the shooting, but you'll stay for the people' - even for some reason SASS disappeared I have made a number of friends in this game that will most likely be lifelong ;)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

You sir,

Are right. I'll not argue that....ever.

Unfortunatly my post did wander off topic, and for that I apologize.

 

Regards

Knarley

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You sir,

Are right. I'll not argue that....ever.

Unfortunatly my post did wander off topic, and for that I apologize.

 

Regards

Knarley

:lol: Welcome to the club...

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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SASS is a business and up to now - has been pretty good business.

 

SASS has been selling an experience.

A multi faceted experience that encompasses attire, competition and fellowship with like minded folks.

Tied together by a set of rules that generally allow for the same experience in numerous locations.

 

But being multi faceted means there is more than a single surface, more than a single vision, more than a single way to look at the subject.

For some - SASS is ALL about spending time with like minded folks "A social event with some shooting"

For some - SASS is ALL about the attire, the history, the ambiance. "The closest you can get to a time machine"

For some - SASS is ALL about the shooting. "Bang and Clang"

 

For most of us - it is some combination of all three views.

But even for the most single minded participant - they were always equally appreciated and allowed to focus on and enjoy their component of the game "as long" as they remained within the rules.

That's good business and pretty much how the business has been run.

 

But now we are being told that certain components of the game are more important than others - the three views are not equally appreciated or welcome. That an equal paying component is a lesser important component...

 

When leadership begins turning a business direction to support their view or their ego instead of what is best for the business - that's bad business.

Nature abhors a vacuum - if SASS decides their business model does not desire the minimalist shooter - another entity will rise up to serve those shooters.

The only good that comes from insulting your customers is you don't have to worry about those customers very long.

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I find that interesting. I've been trying to think of a business model similar to that of SASS and the first thing that came to mind is a Country Club. I've never been a member of one, but I've been as a guest and it seems similar. Basically you're paying for access and must also abide by the rules to get that access.

I think country clubs have a dress code toooo, that is a good comparision

but some seem to be pretty up set

 

wow I can not wait to see a new cowboy/cowgirl, shooting venue start up,

over minimum dress code upsets in SASS,

nothing has even been changed

 

what is happening to CAS

I think western 3gun already has a more minimum dress code than CAS

perhaps they could use more support and members

 

I am all bout working within SASS / CAS to get over this silly hurdel

 

sassmaddmike@yahoo.com :ph34r::ph34r::ph34r:

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......

A multiWhen leadership begins turning a business direction to support their view or their ego instead of what is best for the business - that's bad business.

Nature abhors a vacuum - if SASS decides their business model does not desire the minimalist shooter - another entity will rise up to serve those shooters.

The only good that comes from insulting your customers is you don't have to worry about those customers very long.

I agree with the vast majority of what you said Creeker, particularly the last part that I quoted. I'm not confident that a new entity would arise though, it would depend upon the opportunity for profit. I agree that decisions that reduce the bottom line are bad business decisions, but that doesn't mean they're bad decisions. The owners may have priorities other than profit maximization and that's their priviledge. It appears that SASS has such priorities, perhaps a great value in purism even at the cost of income. More like NCOWS perhaps, though I don't know much about that organization other than it places a higher priority on dress than SASS does/did.

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I think country clubs have a dress code toooo

The ones I've been to did, in fact I've had to borrow 'loner' ties and coats before. I wonder if it's the view of Country Club Members that owners and their views are owed a certain amount of deference?

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I've spent time with several members of the Wild Bunch over the years and found each one of them has a passion and love for the shooting sport they happen to own. Ranchers are businessmen too but have a deep attachment to their ranches. No different with the Wild bunch and what they own.

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It is a Society.

 

There's a lot of business that goes on in society. ;)

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I find that interesting. I've been trying to think of a business model similar to that of SASS and the first thing that came to mind is a Country Club. I've never been a member of one, but I've been as a guest and it seems similar. Basically you're paying for access and must also abide by the rules to get that access.

I was thinking more like NHRA. Drag strips around the country hold racing events and must abide by NHRA rules. Competors show up to race and must abide by NHRA rules. The NHRA is a business.

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I was thinking more like NHRA. Drag strips around the country hold racing events and must abide by NHRA rules. Competors show up to race and must abide by NHRA rules. The NHRA is a business.

How is it owned and operated and what is the nature of the relationship between drivers and management?

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I mean no disrespect, however

 

1) if cowtown held the first "state championship" in 81, common sense dictates it was being done on some level in AZ for at least a year or Two before 81

 

2) I worked with a guy in the 90s (before i ever heard of SASS) who told me stories of him and some buddies in Utah doing something very simaler to what we do when they where teenagers just with real rifles. And since he retired in the late 90s I assume he was a teenager in the 30s or 40s

 

I also remember stories from my history class in highschol of actual cowboys competing in completions with guns to measure speed and accuracy.

 

Again. I give them HUGE amounts or respect for taking an Existing GAME and doing all they have with it.

 

Football was around before NFL

 

People competed with cowboy guns before SASS

Yes, and did so anytime before 1987 when SASS was incorporated.

 

The first EOT was 1981 and while I don't have an actual flyer, it was billed as an International competition. Unfortunately many of those early records have been lost. I only have recollections from the WB as winners in those early years. And while categories have expanded, I have kept up a running history of their winners going back to 1985. In CA, at Cota de Caza. And they'd been competing there with cowboy guns for at least 2 years prior to that. Some of the early participants were Gordon Davis, proprietor of Davis Leather, Harper Creigh, proprietor of an industrial model company (think minature towns, buildings, etc.), and if memory serves, Bill Hahn, USMC (ret.). Next add in Gen'l Grant, Tex, HipShot, RJ Poteet and you have the "Wild Bunch" as it existed before SASS and were the hosts of both the monthly shoots and EOT held at Cota de Caza. In 1990 with the move to Rahaauge's in Norco, they helped organize "The Cowboys" to host monthly shoots and the "Wild Bunch" to host EOT.

 

But, Cowtown was a bit different in those days... There was not the emphasis on costuming and period guns. In that respect EOT and the shoots hosted by "the Wild Bunch" was unique... and grew in SASS.

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Yes, and did so anytime before 1987 when SASS was incorporated.

 

The first EOT was 1981 and while I don't have an actual flyer, it was billed as an International competition. Unfortunately many of those early records have been lost. I only have recollections from the WB as winners in those early years. And while categories have expanded, I have kept up a running history of their winners going back to 1985. In CA, at Cota de Caza. And they'd been competing there with cowboy guns for at least 2 years prior to that. Some of the early participants were Gordon Davis, proprietor of Davis Leather, Harper Creigh, proprietor of an industrial model company (think minature towns, buildings, etc.), and if memory serves, Bill Hahn, USMC (ret.). Next add in Gen'l Grant, Tex, HipShot, RJ Poteet and you have the "Wild Bunch" as it existed before SASS and were the hosts of both the monthly shoots and EOT held at Cota de Caza. In 1990 with the move to Rahaauge's in Norco, they helped organize "The Cowboys" to host monthly shoots and the "Wild Bunch" to host EOT.

 

But, Cowtown was a bit different in those days... There was not the emphasis on costuming and period guns. In that respect EOT and the shoots hosted by "the Wild Bunch" was unique... and grew in SASS.

http://sassnet.com/About-A-Brief-History-001A.php

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:)

 

Per the link quoted:

 

SASS has come a long way since its origins back in 1981. It has become a direct reflection of the membership who join with heart and vigor expanding and keeping alive the Spirit of the Game.

SASS must give credit to many individuals and groups who have contributed to the growth and direction of Cowboy Action Shooting. The bottom line however is SASS members are what make the organization and The Wild Bunch is determined to lead, and at the same time, follow the direction our great sport is taking us.

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I like that last part the most, the members are what makes the organization, and CAS is a sport. The sentiment is nice and defining CAS as a sport has positive implications, at least in my view.

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You guys do realize in the last four posts you have found the original corporate mission statement. Creeker makes some very valid points. It seems the mission statement is evolving as well. What I don't see is a clearly authoritive communicative corporate leader. Editorial comment doesn't count. A CEO that broadcasts the mission of the organization. I don't think another org will rise up unless leadership is lacking. Creeker is right about vaccuums and chaos as we all just saw. If you tell people why things must change... .if its for the common good...most will change. Now I think some are always gonna buck because they are just jealous and they hate the fact that somebody in the WB might be getting rich..which I just can't get the math around. I could start another post about how do you market SASS in the next few years as the WB ages and changes. Not my job.

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