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For 5 minutes - YOU are King/ Queen of SASS


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1 hour ago, July Smith said:

So back to my original argument, we should at least be enforcing the current minimum power factor. 

 

There is a process for Posse Officials to do that now. If you are one of those officials, and have questions of illegal ammunition, illegal firearms and/or modifications, illegal costuming, inadequate blackpowder smoke etc all, why are you not making that call? 

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37 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Oh my god...this is funny coming from a Texican Ranger member.

Not sure what my club affiliation has to do with it, but I am glad you find it humorous.  :D

37 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So...you want to protect against stoopid people learning from stoopid people. And you don't like the sound of the "pop tink" and how it turns off potential shooters...got proof of that? You sure it's not the bunch of old crusty fat shooters with long straggly beards and SG belts under their armpits that is turning off potential shooters????

I didn't call anyone stupid I just think loading ammo and recommending others load ammo below minimum is an unsafe practice.

37 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm sorry, but I call BS. I've been shooting this game for a little while and have spoken with a LOT of new/potential shooters and ZERO have ever been turned off by someone at a match using light loads.

No need to be sorry, you want a debate, that is cool.  I agree light loads are probably pretty low on the list of potential turn offs, but it is not BS.  

37 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

And we SHOULD discourage (not disparage), shooters from using heavy loads. Heavy loads, of course legal and I would never tell someone they need to reduce their loads if legal, DO damage targets and DO damage hearing particularly when inside a structure. So if these loads serve no useful purpose other than make the shooter feel some form of satisfaction, but do cause damage...why wouldn't you discourage the use of those loads?

 

Phantom

Obviously a 200gr cast bullet going 1000fps will cause more wear on a target vs a 100gr bullet going 600fps (minimum legal load).  I was simply addressing comments that seemed to imply shooters using loads at the upper end of the legal limits somehow were a safety issue.  My point was and still is, that if a shooter using legal ammo represents a safety concern or unnecessary wear on the target then there is something wrong with the quality, angle or placement of the targets not their loads.  If you disagree and think the current upper level is too high what PF or FPS max limit do you propose/recommend?

  

Edited by July Smith
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My 5 minutes...

 

I want consistency.

 

Why is it legal for my to carry one long gun in a certain condition sometimes but not legal for me to do the same in other times? And, why, for those times that it is legal for me to do it, it not be legal for me to carry the other long gun in the same condition at those same times?

 

So, either go back to the way we had it, or, if it truly does not matter from a safety standpoint, update it to allow the same condition for all at all times. Makes no matter to me.

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1 minute ago, July Smith said:

Not sure what my club affiliation has to do with it, but I am glad you find it humorous.  :D

I didn't call anyone stupid I just think loading ammo and recommending others load ammo below minimum is an unsafe practice.

Did I say that you call people stoopid? No...I didn't. May I suggest you read my comment again.

1 minute ago, July Smith said:

No need to be sorry, you want a debate, that is cool.  I agree light loads are probably pretty low on the list of potential turn offs, but it is not BS.  

It's BS because I don't believe what you said is true...or at best, it's the extreme exception.

1 minute ago, July Smith said:

Obviously a 200gr cast bullet going 1000fps will cause more wear on a target vs a 100gr bullet going 600fps (minimum legal load).  I was simply addressing comments that seemed to imply shooters using loads at the upper end of the legal limits somehow were a safety issue.  My point was and still is, that if a shooter using legal ammo represents a safety concern or unnecessary wear on the target then there is something wrong with the quality, angle or placement of the targets not their loads.  If you disagree and think the current upper level is too high what PF or FPS max limit do you propose/recommend?

  

I never said it was a "Safety" concern...Strawman...Unlike some, I don't believe the rules should dictate an upper limit. This should be self regulated. But there are many that shoot heavy (legal), loads that don't give a crap about what consequences their choices have.

 

And you just don't "get it". You blame the targets quality...etc. Yeah yeah yeah, we know that these things are important in reducing splatter. Your position is for the "clubs" to buy better quality targets. Well some can't afford better target steel...but you just don't get that for some reason. And there will still be folks that don't give a damn about blasting away in a covered building with their heavy loads...beating up steel...cus they'll say with a grin on their face "Warthog till I die...buy better steel if you don't like it!".

 

The Cowboy Way...

 

Phantom

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2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

If I were KING WIDDER for only 5 minutes, I would tell

everyone to stop taking your Saturday 'fun days' so serious

and enjoy the game where you are at.   And if some little

tweaking of targets is required, get involved in the club

work.  

 

If better steel is needed, then get involved in some

fund raiser activities and dish out some gold for those targets.

 

So, for today,  I DEGREE everyone to relax, enjoy, don't take

some of these things so serious.  Besides, if you don't win

the Cadillac this weekend, its o.k.......... they'll sell you one 

down at the dealership.  :D   That's where I got mine..... ;)

 

..........King Widder

 

Here! Here!  All hail to KING WIDDER!

 

For those that desire to run their posses with an iron fist with the handbook in their back pocket I suggest you check out IPSC.  You'll likely find how they run their matches more to your liking.

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1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Only .38 Short Colt, .38 S&W, 38 Long Colt and .38-44.  (.38-40 is already okay)  Those are the only classic .38's.   I think...   But then again, by that logic, .32-20 should also be okay.  As should .32 S&W and .32 S&W Long and....

Ah...   The permutations are endless!  :)

.38 spl was introduced in 1898, that’s in our time frame. Of course there's the 1892 Winchester, 94 Marlin that's not allowed in any caliber so forget it! :o:P:lol:
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

Edited by Rye Miles #13621
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When discussing SASS with other shooters they mention 2 things. First they wrongly assume that you have to dress in an elaborate period correct western costume to participate no matter how many times you tell them what the minimum requirements are. Second, they comment negatively on the lightly loaded ammunition. But very few of these people are actually potential SASS shooters to start with.

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Frankly, after reading, contributing, and more reading for this 5, but not quite 6 full pages of of apparently discontented participants in this fine cowboy action game... I'd suggest that if you don't like the way it's played, run, or it's current rules... you stay home.  Go thru a little withdrawal... see if you can stay away.  But, whatever you do, don't bother to pollute The Wire with criticism, derision or gross ignorance.

 

Creeker, my SASS enthusiastic brother... please don't post your query allowing for more such drivel.  I don't know if I could stand it!  It's clear folks can't follow the simple instruction to take less than 5 minutes to post about the ONE thing they'd change or improve SASS... Give 'em more time?  Aw H E double hockey sticks, NO!

 

By the end of just this exercise, I don't recognize the game of cowboy action shooting.  "Come for the shooting, stay for the people,"  ... not freaking likely in this crowd!    Me?... I'm spending this weekend out at a 30+ year SASS affiliated club at their annual "Halloween Match"... in costume with like-minded folks, enjoying myself... I'm going as a newbie... I'll be using my strong hand thumb to cock the sixgun, drop my rifle from my shoulder for every shot... pull each hull separately from my shotgun, and get a "P" on every stage... I'm going to flub every line, and have the time of my life... for Monday I see my dermatologist and have him burn (can't really be "freezing" if you end up with blisters, can it?), more cancer from my carcass...  I'm sure reading more of this... will be more painful!

Edited by Griff
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Spirit of the Game.  It took me a very long time (and a lot of prodding from Phantom) to understand the Spirit of the Game penalty as it's currently written.  One of the most common mistakes I see here on The Wire and on other forms of social media is people saying they'd assess a Spirit of the Game penalty for someone acting contrary to the cowboy way.  That's NOT a Spirit of the Game penalty.  But if I were SASS King I'd change that.  I'd make the Spirt of the Game penalty description exactly how the name implies.  I'd then create a different penalty for what's currently described as Spirit of the Game.  Maybe call it the Gamer penalty. :P

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1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

.38 spl was introduced in 1898, that’s in our time frame. Of course there's the 1892 Winchester, 94 Marlin that's not allowed in any caliber so forget it! :o:P:lol:
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

Ah!   For some reason I thought .38 Special was created in 1901.  I stand corrected.  In that case, I'll happily include in the the list of "classic" .38's.

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1 hour ago, Shawnee Hills said:

Here! Here!  All hail to KING WIDDER!

 

For those that desire to run their posses with an iron fist with the handbook in their back pocket I suggest you check out IPSC.  You'll likely find how they run their matches more to your liking.

Excuse me...perhaps I misunderstand your statement. You seem to be implying that enforcing all the rules is...heavy handed...??

 

Please clarify.

 

Phantom

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4 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

If I were KING WIDDER for only 5 minutes, I would tell

everyone to stop taking your Saturday 'fun days' so serious

and enjoy the game where you are at.   And if some little

tweaking of targets is required, get involved in the club

work.  

 

If better steel is needed, then get involved in some

fund raiser activities and dish out some gold for those targets.

 

So, for today,  I DEGREE everyone to relax, enjoy, don't take

some of these things so serious.  Besides, if you don't win

the Cadillac this weekend, its o.k.......... they'll sell you one 

down at the dealership.  :D   That's where I got mine..... ;)

 

..........King Widder

 

Oh no, you wouldn't! You'd take that 5 minutes to poke Ol' TW in the eye... that's what you'd do alright... :P

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1 hour ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

When discussing SASS with other shooters they mention 2 things. First they wrongly assume that you have to dress in an elaborate period correct western costume to participate no matter how many times you tell them what the minimum requirements are. Second, they comment negatively on the lightly loaded ammunition. But very few of these people are actually potential SASS shooters to start with.

 

This is exactly my experience and observation from one other discipline I used to participate in as well as some modern training classes I have taken. When comments are made about light loads akin to a BB gun I pull out one of my Vaqueros and stoke it with 250 grain blackpowder loads and let them touch off a few rounds and tell them these are my cowboy guns... and they ain't BB guns. :D That does catch their attention. Still hasn't brought enough interest to join me at a monthly however.

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57 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Oh no, you wouldn't! You'd take that 5 minutes to poke Ol' TW in the eye... that's what you'd do alright... :P

 

I'd degree TW be one of them 'You-Nicks'.   

 

..........Widder

 

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8 minutes ago, Vail Vigilante said:

Allow tube mag shotguns the ability to load to capacity. Because this is how they were run in the old west.

 

FYI to those proposing this...talk to your stage writers (or volunteer to write some yourselves):

Quote

Pump and lever action shotguns are not allowed to load more than two live rounds at a time in the main match stages unless specified in the stage description. In team events, shotguns may be loaded to their maximum magazine capacity.

SHB p.26

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Not yet!:lol: 

Let's make everybody happy. PF=125, targets @ 10 yards max, made of 1/2" AR500. And most important, sticky notes to remember stage lines! :ph34r:;)

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On 10/24/2023 at 10:37 AM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Nobody ask, but here is my take on this 'remembrance 'P' penalty.

 

I don't get up on Saturday morning, travel anywhere from 1 or 2 hours

to enjoy the day with some friends in a 'SHOOTING' competition

just so somebody that aint got nothing better to do than hand out

20 second penalties for not remembering some phrase or line

that they made up.

 

Heck, at 72, I even forget my Bday sometimes and tell folks I'm

60 something.

I'll stay home before I let someone shove that in my face.

 

..........Widder

 

  72 man you are OLD:P

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This is my UNOFFICIAL historical memory concerning target

sizes and distances.

 

Back in 2004, when I first joined SASS, stage writers seem to 'brag'

about the number of folks who got 'P's or misses on their stages.

Targets were smaller and a tad further back then and there didn't

seem to be many CLEAN shooters at the matches.

 

Then, somewhere between then and now, MD's started wanting

to brag about the number of CLEAN shooters they were getting

at their matches, which seem to coincide with bigger and closer

targets.

 

And also during that time, our lovely ladies became more

prominent at our matches AND..... were beginning to hit more

targets with better time results.

 

All of this only seem to enhance the BIG & CLOSE faction of which

we seem to enjoy today, atleast for the most part.  AND WHY?

Well, because we all enjoy hearing the steel ring more than we

like seeing dirt fly.   And it seems our stage writers and MD's

started enjoying the smiles and compliments from shooters

who fork out good money for guns, vehicles, clothes, and match

fees.

 

Like I stated above...... this is just my unofficial take on our

present situation.   I have no pole that proves anything I've said.

BUT, I wouldn't be surprised if some of my thinking isn't

on target.    Do I hear another 'Ding'?

:D

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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9 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

  72 man you are OLD:P

 

Howdy TJB.

Maybe, but when I hear that 'buzzer' go off on Saturday mornings,

I feel young again.  ;)

 

..........Widder

 

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33 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

BUT, I wouldn't be surprised if some of my thinking isn't

on target.  

 

It is. 

 

I can't recall the exact year... maybe close to 2010.  Anyway there was a two-day annual that tried to "put it back in the box".   Smaller targets, farther out and there wasn't a double or triple-tap in the match - 100% singles.  It wasn't received well.  

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4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Excuse me...perhaps I misunderstand your statement. You seem to be implying that enforcing all the rules is...heavy handed...??

 

Please clarify.

 

Phantom

 

You do but that's okay.  Rules are to be enforced but there are different ways of doing so.  The "iron fist" that I am referring to are those that find themselves on a power trip just waiting to jump on an infraction with a "YER OUTTA HERE" call.  Far better that infractions are handled kindly without making a scene.

 

I remember a post not too long ago where the situation was a sxs closing on the way to the firing line or unloading table.  There were those that jumped on that with a SDQ call without fully understanding the situation.  Then there was the conversation about not starting a shooter unless they said the prescribed line.  Of course, this isn't a rule . . . but IS it?  There were those who claimed it was an SOG infraction.  Common sense ultimately prevailed in those two examples, but it took a while.

 

TOs on a power trip need to understand that their actions are resulting in shooters leaving the game.  The ones that would counter that with a "that shooter just needs thicker skin" will continue to push new shooters away.  Like it or not, it's reality.

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22 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:

 

You do but that's okay.  Rules are to be enforced but there are different ways of doing so.  The "iron fist" that I am referring to are those that find themselves on a power trip just waiting to jump on an infraction with a "YER OUTTA HERE" call.  Far better that infractions are handled kindly without making a scene.

 

I remember a post not too long ago where the situation was a sxs closing on the way to the firing line or unloading table.  There were those that jumped on that with a SDQ call without fully understanding the situation.  Then there was the conversation about not starting a shooter unless they said the prescribed line.  Of course, this isn't a rule . . . but IS it?  There were those who claimed it was an SOG infraction.  Common sense ultimately prevailed in those two examples, but it took a while.

 

TOs on a power trip need to understand that their actions are resulting in shooters leaving the game.  The ones that would counter that with a "that shooter just needs thicker skin" will continue to push new shooters away.  Like it or not, it's reality.

Clarity is a wonderful thing when it comes to the written word.

 

No, there is no rule on Starting Lines...so that's not up for debate. That said, clubs can have Club Rules...but then they obviously can say that they adhere to SASS rules.

 

Don't know of anyone telling a shooter that they need "thicker skin" when dealing with an abrasive TO...in fact there are guidelines on TO behavior. 

 

Yes, I've been around a little and I have a fair grasp of SASS/CAS reality...thanks.

 

Phantom

1 hour ago, July Smith said:

Hey I'm trying to play nice!  It's just a debate and difference of opinions.  No need to lock it.

He wasn't responding to your post...

 

:mellow:

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

This is my UNOFFICIAL historical memory concerning target

sizes and distances.

 

Back in 2004, when I first joined SASS, stage writers seem to 'brag'

about the number of folks who got 'P's or misses on their stages.

Targets were smaller and a tad further back then and there didn't

seem to be many CLEAN shooters at the matches.

 

Then, somewhere between then and now, MD's started wanting

to brag about the number of CLEAN shooters they were getting

at their matches, which seem to coincide with bigger and closer

targets.

 

And also during that time, our lovely ladies became more

prominent at our matches AND..... were beginning to hit more

targets with better time results.

 

All of this only seem to enhance the BIG & CLOSE faction of which

we seem to enjoy today, atleast for the most part.  AND WHY?

Well, because we all enjoy hearing the steel ring more than we

like seeing dirt fly.   And it seems our stage writers and MD's

started enjoying the smiles and compliments from shooters

who fork out good money for guns, vehicles, clothes, and match

fees.

 

Like I stated above...... this is just my unofficial take on our

present situation.   I have no pole that proves anything I've said.

BUT, I wouldn't be surprised if some of my thinking isn't

on target.    Do I hear another 'Ding'?

:D

 

..........Widder

 

Widder - you are spot on.

I started shooting this game in 1999; didn't join SASS until '02 or so.

 

When I started shooting - the "norm" was small, distant targets and convoluted sequences.  The MD's were indeed proud of "No one shoots my matches clean" and I shot an annual match early in my time where a SINGLE shooter shot clean and the match director announced that he would make sure to "fix that" for next year.

 

I was fortunate enough to visit Bordertown early in my SASS shooting career and experienced the revelation of BIG, CLOSE and FAST.  

I also saw how popular this match was and questioned; if so many like this style of match - why aren't others emulating it?

 

I immediately lobbied to take over match directing and match setup for a couple of the Las Vegas clubs - implementing the Bordertown philosophy into my match writing and target sets.

 

I was very proud of our clean shooter percentage and the fact that I was allowed to do things this way in Southern Nevada for nearly 18 years.

 

I have been blessed to write matches for every club that exists or has existed in Southern Nevada.

 

I have written matches for clubs in California, Utah, Arizona and have been asked for guidance regarding or to review match writing in a half dozen other states.

 

I take all of this as some level of approval of my stage/ match writing and philosophy regarding target sets.

 

Folks keep comparing us to other shooting games/ sports; without understanding what SASS is.

SASS is entertainment.

 

We are not defensive training or a discipline.

We are not here to improve your tactical skillset.

We are not here to gauge your manliness or endurance.

We are not here to give you a headache, stress you or induce frustration.

 

We are the ONLY shooting game that doesn't purport to be training you or improving you. 

That doesn't imply that participation improves your chance to better hit a startled pheasant, to competently handle a mugger or to survive the zombie apocalypse.

 

Our game is about smiles, yeehaws and the FUN of shooting quickly in the company of (somewhat) like minded people.

 

SASS is entertainment.

Serious SASS is another game altogether - one I have no interest in.

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26 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yes, I've been around a little and I have a fair grasp of SASS/CAS reality...thanks.

 

That wasn't an assumption of your knowledge of SASS/CAS.  Just a general statement.  Nothing personal about it so please don't take it that way.

 

Regarding our local TOs and shooters in general, I consider myself extremely lucky to shoot with some of the nicest and helpful folks around.  Everyone is extremely pleasant to shoot with and I have a blast every time I go.  It's a completely different, and very welcomed, atmosphere than the IPSC years.

 

But I've clearly exceeded my five-minute limit so will now go sit in the corner and contemplate my transgressions.

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2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Howdy TJB.

Maybe, but when I hear that 'buzzer' go off on Saturday mornings,

I feel young again.  ;)

 

..........Widder

 

I am surprised at your age you can still hear.:rolleyes:

 

Best wishes 

 

PS I just turned 75 and I am in my prime

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10 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Not a good measure...the most violent splatter I've seen comes from other bays...much further than 10 feet. 

 

Splatter is a whole different discussion...trust me, it would either be 500 pages long or get shut down after a few comments. But...splatter always happens...on every shot. Controlling where it goes is the key and frankly, not that hard to control.

 

But, target distance is, in CAS context, irrelevant.

 

Phantom

I didn't say anything about splatter.  My stated reason was for consistency.    We all know a miss can't cause a procedural, so logic dictates that a miss also shouldn't start an argument about whether or not it's a DQ.  If 10' is too close to shoot the dirt, it's too close to shoot a target.

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When I first went out to watch a CAS match in June 1995 I met some folks who tried to give me guns and ammo and wanted me to shoot after the match was over.  I politely declined shooting other folks guns.  But, I asked them what is Cowboy Action Shooting really all about.  One fellow said, "Cowboy Action Shooting is the most fun you can have with your pants on!"  Other fellow said it's, "A social event interrupted by gunfire!"

Joined the next month and haven't had one regret about all the time and money spent being with nice folks.

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1 hour ago, Fretless said:

I didn't say anything about splatter.  My stated reason was for consistency.    We all know a miss can't cause a procedural, so logic dictates that a miss also shouldn't start an argument about whether or not it's a DQ.  If 10' is too close to shoot the dirt, it's too close to shoot a target.

"Most" targets are at a given level - say waist to head height compated to an average shooter.  

A round that strikes these targets is an AIMED round on a horizontal path and is no danger to anyone whether at 10 ft, 20 ft or 50 ft.

 

A round that strikes the ground at 10 ft

(unless the target was sitting on the ground) was an UNAIMED round on an angle into the ground.

 

So unless your argument is "Do not place targets on the ground within 10ft of the shooter" - the two items being compared; a bullet striking a target at 10ft vs striking the ground at 10ft are not like items - and have nothing to do with each other.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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