BP Shotgun Loads / Weight or Volume

[Rancho Roy]

I just starting to load Black Powder 10G shotgun shells. A few folks sent me their pet loads....They are specifying powder in GRAINS.....Is it weight or volume. Was salways volume with muzzle loader rifles..... But before I do something stupid....Gotta ask!

[Hoss]

Track of the wolf sells a nifty booklet on loading 10G shotguns. Well worth the price. 

[Rancho Roy]

8 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Track of the wolf sells a nifty booklet on loading 10G shotguns. Well worth the price. 

I bought it a couple years ago....Do you think I can find it now!...

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Volume

—Dawg

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Confirm volume weight with a scale 

[Hoss]

53 minutes ago, Rancho Roy said:

I bought it a couple years ago....Do you think I can find it now!...

I’d offer to loan you mine, but alas, can’t find it either!!! 
(I suspect Jimmy Hoffa may be somewhere on my bench reading it )

[Rancho Roy]

Quote

Confirm volume weight with a scale 

 Are you sure?   60g of Pyrodex by weight  is way more powder than Black by weight. (Here in Massachusetts getting real BP is very difficult. I have a few pounds but I'm using it in long range rifles)....Pyrodex is MUCH lighter. And we always used the substitutes by the same volume that we would use for Black....Black Powder is just about the same, weight and volume....70g of BP by weight is just about 70G by volume. Not so for the substitutes....

 

Very confusing....

[Rancho Roy]

Another question......How many wasd is too many?  To get a good roll crimp on a 2.75" shell, I need two 1/2" and an 1/8" ( 1 1/8 oz Shot)

Here is what I'm using

 

 

[Snakebite Dust SASS 75484]

45 minutes ago, Rancho Roy said:

Another question......How many wasd is too many?  To get a good roll crimp on a 2.75" shell, I need two 1/2" and an 1/8" ( 1 1/8 oz Shot)

Here is what I'm using

 

 

That seems like a small amount of powder. How much by volume?

[Rancho Roy]

60g by volume

[Slapshot]

Maybe this will help. I find it real handy being that I am new to subs or should I call it grey powder since it actually isn't black.

Black Powder Volume to Weight~Conversion Chart.xlsx

[Presidio]

4 hours ago, Rancho Roy said:

Another question......How many wasd is too many?  To get a good roll crimp on a 2.75" shell, I need two 1/2" and an 1/8" ( 1 1/8 oz Shot)

Here is what I'm using

 

 

Might be your preference, but I don't use any lube wads in my stack.  Just not a need.

 

If you want to use a lube wad, place it in the stack above the nitro card and below the shot.  Don't want that lube getting into your powder.

 

If'n it was me, I'd put it over the shot below the overshot card.

 

Or in reality...I'd just use 1 Fiber wad, then shot, then the overshot card, then seal the card in with beeswax.

 

Nobody says the stack has to be flush with the end of the case mouth.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Presidio

[Still hand Bill]

Black powder is confusing as it’s a weight, but that weight is volume.    Modern equivalents are less dense and get measured by volume that is equivalent to the same weight in real black powder.   Get a Lee dipper set or a black powder measure for loading muzzle loaders.    Once you get the volume correct, then measure the weight and use that if you want to measure by weight.   Say 60g of black powder, and you are using APP or Black MzL, it may only weigh 45 grains for the same volume.  
 

you can use more wads if you want a lighter load.  I used felt wads in my pistol rounds to reduce them from full power loads.   With BP you want to make sure not to have an air gap in your load.  

[Jackalope]

There is no such thing as "grain volume, volumetric grain, volumetric equivalent", etc.

 

Grains are a measurement of weight, or mass.  

 

Volume is the amount of space in a three-dimensional object.  

 

The amount of powder dropped by a powder measure (which has a three-dimensional chamber of a particular volume) will have a particular weight (as measured on a scale).  However, if you switch from Fg powder to FFFg powder without changing the powder measure, you will certainly drop a different weight from the same volume.  Even if you switch from brand to brand, you may drop different weight.  Two different powders occupying the same volume may not have the same mass.  Two different powders having the same mass may not have the same volume.

 

If you need to fill a given volume (such as black powder in a cartridge or shotgun shell), fill the volume and don't worry about the weight or mass.

 

If you need a particular weight (such as smokeless powder in a cartridge or shotgun shell), use a scale and don't worry about the volume.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Jackalope
spelling

[Rancho Roy]

35 minutes ago, Still hand Bill said:

Black powder is confusing as it’s a weight, but that weight is volume.    Modern equivalents are less dense and get measured by volume that is equivalent to the same weight in real black powder.   Get a Lee dipper set or a black powder measure for loading muzzle loaders.    Once you get the volume correct, then measure the weight and use that if you want to measure by weight.   Say 60g of black powder, and you are using APP or Black MzL, it may only weigh 45 grains for the same volume.  

This is exactly what I was looking for! Thank You!

[Rancho Roy]

An interesting point about powder charges ....Weight vs Volume.... I shot Benchrest Rifle for many years. No one uses weight for their incredibly accurate charges...Most use a Culver scale that throws by volume...Trickle charging to obtain PERFECT weight in a modern rifle cartridge is a waste of time......Always made me laugh seeing new BR shooters adding two or three specs of powder to a 6BR or 6PPC cartridge....

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

11 hours ago, Rancho Roy said:

 Are you sure?   60g of Pyrodex by weight  is way more powder than Black by weight. (Here in Massachusetts getting real BP is very difficult. I have a few pounds but I'm using it in long range rifles)....Pyrodex is MUCH lighter. And we always used the substitutes by the same volume that we would use for Black....Black Powder is just about the same, weight and volume....70g of BP by weight is just about 70G by volume. Not so for the substitutes....

 

Very confusing....

Use real BP. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE for Jackalope!!

 

Roy, go back and re-read Jackalope.  It's the best simple explanation I've ever read.  The weight of a specific BP or SUB. is meaningless trivia.  Simply doesn't matter.  And, while I'm at it, Pyrodex has no place in firearms.  It's a rusting agent that just happens to burn.  Bestest SUBs are by APP. 

[La Sombra]

@Tequila Shooter and @Sedalia Dave answers….

[Rancho Roy]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Use real BP. 

Difficult to find here in MA...Need to take a ride to NH or Maine

[Jasper Agate]

15 hours ago, Rancho Roy said:

Another question......How many wasd is too many?  To get a good roll crimp on a 2.75" shell, I need two 1/2" and an 1/8" ( 1 1/8 oz Shot)

Here is what I'm using

 

 

Roy,

Why use a 12 gauge load in a 10 gauge?

I use a volume measurer with a square load of 1-3/8's oz shot and same dipper for 2 FFG real black powder with appropriate wads and a roll crimp. Yeah sometimes the knockdowns come back up but isn't that a part of shooting a big 10!?!?!?!

                     Jasper

[Chantry]

By volume

 

I took a CVA clear powder measure used for muzzleloaders, set it to the 120 grains I had decided on for my load and then poured that in a empty 20 gauge hull.  I marked the top of the powder with some tape and cut off the excess plastic from the 20 gauge hull and that's what I use to load powder into my hulls.

 

As for real BP, work it out with some of the other BP shooters in MA and do a group buy where someone drives up to NH or ME

[Still hand Bill]

I did a square load by using Lee dippers and figuring out the shot charge I wanted, then used that volume to load black mz.  Then added wads to get the right stack height.   

[Tequila Shooter]

@Rancho Roy  looking at your load picture and thinking I hope he knows that it’s in the wrong order, but just in case:  starting from the bottom powder/nitro card/wad(s)/overshot card/shot/overshot card.  To parrot some things lubed wads aren’t necessary and you stand the chance of lube contaminating the powder especially if they are stored in a warm place.  @Jackalope’s explanation is very good, but if you want it explained with pictures here’s a good video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_5EEPf0vzE&t=320s  put out by Mike Beliveau.  Also what @Colorado Coffinmaker said you’d be better off using 777 or better yet APP. 

Speaking of APP, it is a perfect powder to compare to BP when talking about volume vs. weight.  If you compare 3F APP to 3F or even 2F BP you’ll see that there’s no comparison in granule size.  Also APP recommends a very light amount of compression, compared to BP.  So as you can see the same volume of APP will weigh quite a bit less than BP.   Also, the volume of BP can change based on how it’s put into the case, the same grain weight of BP will take up less volume if it is added by drop tube compared to pouring it into a case. 

[Doc McCoy, SASS #8381]

Roy, I think you have it by now.  But here it is in my manner of thinking.

If it is real BP you can use weight.  Since that’s about all I use I just weigh it on a scale to get my powder measure at the right setting.  

Otherwise, for any substitute you use the equivalent volume, i.e. 60 gr by volume.  

60 gr of real BP is what the volume device is calibrated to represent at the 60 gr volume mark.  I never weigh a substitute (except just for curiosity).

[Griff]

8 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

...Pyrodex has no place in firearms.  It's a rusting agent that just happens to burn.  Bestest SUBs are by APP. 

THIS!!↑↑↑↑

[Rancho Roy]

Thank you! Good info. And yes, I should have put the components in order…

Thanks Doc!

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

...Pyrodex has no place in firearms.  It's a rusting agent that just happens to burn.  Bestest SUBs are by APP. 

Thank you!! Pyrodex is also expensive.
Full disclosure, I sell APP… 
 

Hugs!!

Scarlett

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

14 hours ago, Jackalope said:

There is no such thing as "grain volume, volumetric grain, volumetric equivalent", etc.

 

Grains are a measurement of weight, or mass.  

 

Volume is the amount of space in a three-dimensional object.  

 

The amount of powder dropped by a powder measure (which has a three-dimensional chamber of a particular volume) will have a particular weight (as measured on a scale).  However, if you switch from Fg powder to FFFg powder without changing the powder measure, you will certainly drop a different weight from the same volume.  Even if you switch from brand to brand, you may drop different weight.  Two different powders occupying the same volume may not have the same mass.  Two different powders having the same mass may not have the same volume.

 

If you need to fill a given volume (such as black powder in a cartridge or shotgun shell), fill the volume and don't worry about the weight or mass.

 

If you need a particular weight (such as smokeless powder in a cartridge or shotgun shell), use a scale and don't worry about the volume.

Spot on. This is pretty much all there is to know. BP ain’t rocket surgery. 

[Johnny Knight]

Thanks for posting the substitution chart, it may explain why I wasn't able to see my target much at CAC... I had settled on a load of 54 grains of APP 3F in the brass 12 ga shells....looks like that works out to 70 grains of black... might trying dialing back a bit...more experimentation ahead.

Johnny

 

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Johnny Knight said:

Thanks for posting the substitution chart, it may explain why I wasn't able to see my target much at CAC... I had settled on a load of 54 grains of APP 3F in the brass 12 ga shells....looks like that works out to 70 grains of black... might trying dialing back a bit...more experimentation ahead.

Johnny

 

35 grains by weight of APP and 7/8 ounce of shot will take down any KD if you do your part. 

[Johnny Knight]

Thanks, I've heard folks using the 35 grains before, plus I'll get half again as many rounds out of the pound.  Time to make some up.

Johnny

[Eyesa Horg]

In my 12ga, I'm using 3.1cc, which weighs out depending on the can to 40-42gr of real FFg under 1oz. of #7.5 shot. Takes em down with fire and smoke! Minimal recoil as well.

[Sedalia Dave]

6 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

In my 12ga, I'm using 3.1cc, which weighs out depending on the can to 40-42gr of real FFg under 1oz. of #7.5 shot. Takes em down with fire and smoke! Minimal recoil as well.

 

That works out to about 36.5 grains by weight of APP. That would make a great 1 oz 12 ga load.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

52 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

That works out to about 36.5 grains by weight of APP. That would make a great 1 oz 12 ga load.

Also 35gr-Trip Seven 3f and 1 1/8 #8 works