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I'm doing some stage math (always a dangerous thing) and trying to figure out if my fevered Covid-19 symptomatic idea :blink: will work semi fairly or maybe going to get me strung up.

 

So...

On a PLANNED reload (in the stage instructions; plenty of warning) what is your HONEST (on the range - under match conditions; not your absolute best after 243 attempts in your gun room) time for a single round reload.

 

Rifle time?

Pistol time?

 

 

ALL firearms will be staged on a table (pistols and rifle).

Firearm may be loaded anytime after the beep IF that changes anything for you.

 

I'll post the stage idea after getting a few responses to see if the math works in any manner.

I'm not sure it will work based on my lack of reloading skill - but that's why I ask the wire.

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If allowed anytime, and your rifle will hold 11, as you pick it up, stuff one in. Otherwise I go over the top. Using right hand. Practice only doing it one way. I see people try to go over the top with action closed, then open action and try to go thru the gate! (Yes, done it myself!) 

 

For pistol, shoot 1, open gate, put one in cylinder.  No need to roll cylinder or count clicks that way. 
 

Practicing  at home, can be done in nano-seconds . At a match, with timer running, takes hours! 

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My rifle reloads take a few seconds, regardless of whether it's before the first shot is fired downrange or at the end of the shooting string.  I fumble more with getting the round out of my belt than getting it in the rifle, but still, probably 3-4 seconds on my best day.

 

Pistol reloads?  Get a sun dial.

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36 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

I fumble more with getting the round out of my belt than getting it in the rifle

Same with me.

Had once a stage with two rounds rifle reload where you could the stage the rounds on the prop which was the hight of a bar, that made it a lot easier.

If the round is easy accessible I estimate about 1.5 seconds for a planned one round rifle reload. This would be through the gate prior to first cycling as both my 20" and 19" 73s hold 11 .45 Colt in the tube.

No idea for pistol reloading time. Only had stages with a reload after the tenth shot so far. This means for me with my Colt clones half cock, rotate to find the empty chamber, load one, 4 clicks forward, full cock and bang, feels like an eternity...

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After many years of observation, the average shooter who jacks out a live round from the rifle and then attempts to reload, it takes them 7-8 seconds.

 

If they had practiced it and /or expected it, figure 3-4 seconds.

 

I estimate similar times for a pistol reload.

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After my first match, I'll be excited to see if I can keep all my stage times under a minute next match, at the range however, I noticed that my ASM New Model Army and Polish Star capper permit me to cap on the left side of the gun, so I can cap immediately following the 5th shot and not have to index at all.  Your stagecoach ride may be bumpier than mine.

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Fortunately I haven't had very many on the clock reloads. I vaguely recall yelling get a rope the one and only time I saw a pistol reload. But I was shooting 58 remingtons with pale rider style conversions that day. I want to say it added about 15-20 seconds to my average stage time. At a guess a rifle reload takes me about 5-6 seconds as im not real proficient at it yet.

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My reload practices comes primarily from jacking live rounds out of my rifle.  In those instances I believe my reloads cost me about three seconds.  I'm working on brining that time down.

 

If allowed to load anytime after the beep it doesn't take me much more than one second to stuff an 11th round into the rifle before shouldering it.

 

I have no clue about pistols. 

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1 minute ago, Totes Magoats said:

Pistol reload is about 9 seconds, but to be fair, 7 seconds of that is me repeatedly yelling "who the heck wrote this stage!".

 

Totes

This   ^ ^  ^        Every time there is a reload no matter how many times I read the stage directions.

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Oh well . . . . I shoot Cap Guns and Toggle Link Rifles.  For a Rifle reload, when performing the reload from "the person", after pulling the first cartridge and fumbling it into the weeds, I usually get it done in 8 - 12 Seconds total.  Planned or unplanned is no different.  First round goes inna weeds, not the rifle.

 

Cap Guns.  No such thing as an "unplanned" reload.  Take a miss.  Planned, I cap the 6th chamber after the beep, usually takes 3 - 4 seconds.  I DO NOT routinely load and shoot with an un-capped chamber (sorry Griff).

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5 seconds or less for rifle

7-8 seconds for pistol 

Since I never timed myself this is just a really good guess !:lol:

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2 hours ago, Hells Comin said:

Gamers:

.25 of a second 

Pistol - don't care get a Rope!

Not the first time a rope has been offered to me.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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I'm big on what I call equitable options...

 

IF you are going to allow folks choices in how to attack the stage - you need to make sure those choices are somewhat equitable.

If not; it simply becomes follow the leader once the first person figures out the "Best" way to do something.

So with all of that being said - I am trying to balance out a rifle reload or a pistol reload against shotgun engagements.

 

Here's my idea:

 

Pistols 5 rounds each on table

Rifle 10 rounds on table

Shotgun 2 or 6 or 9 rounds on table

 

............................................................T

................................................................T

SG  SG  SG  SG  SG  SG  SG  SG..............T

.........................................................................T

.............................................................................T

.................................................................................T

 

................X....................................................TABLE

 

Sequence is a PROGRESSIVE sweep using pistols and rifle (1 on 1, 2 on 2, 3 on 3, 4 on 4, 5 on 5, 6 on 6) 21 rounds.

Shooter may do a reload in Pistol, Rifle or shooter may engage a single shot on correct plate with shotgun BETWEEN rifle and pistols

(SG cannot be first or last on target sequence)

Shooter begins at table - at the beep: Engage targets in a Progressive sweep from either end in any gun order.  Reload may occur (if safe and SASS legal) at any time in either pistol or rifle (meaning you can't load a pistol; go hammer down on a loaded round and then choose to use rifle; etc.)

Once sequence is complete - with shotgun move to marker. 

If shooter did PISTOL reload - engage any TWO Knockdowns.

If shooter did RIFLE reload - engage SIX knockdowns.

If shooter used SG instead of rifle/ pistol reload - engage EIGHT knockdowns.

 

Something different using a simple stage set up.

 

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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So basically your handicapping based on your guess as to the length of time required for a reload.  In my own mind not a good idea.  You are handicapping the pistol reload at 4 seconds against the rifle and 6 seconds against the shotgun.  Some can do the shotgun in 8 seconds or slightly less  but most will fall into the 15 to 20 second bracket.  The pistol reload can be done very quickly even with a half cock gun 2 to 5 seconds but most will fall into the 8 to 15 bracket.  The rifle reload 1 to 3 seconds but most will exceed 5.  The shotgun 1 to 2 but most will go 4 to 5.

If you want to mess with people put 21 rounds on the table in a bowl.  At the signal load a fire 21 rounds in any order dropped or lost rounds may be made up from the body.

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What if someone's rifle only holds 10 ! Big advantage to the one that holds more than 10+ if off the table. Maybe after 1st rifle shot. 

Like I said before " Get a Rope"

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And then there are folks who, like me, use a Schofield. This could be argued that gives an advantage to me [although anyone who has seen me shoot, knows I can use all the help I can get].

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41 minutes ago, twelve mile REB said:

So basically your handicapping based on your guess as to the length of time required for a reload.  In my own mind not a good idea.  You are handicapping the pistol reload at 4 seconds against the rifle and 6 seconds against the shotgun.  Some can do the shotgun in 8 seconds or slightly less  but most will fall into the 15 to 20 second bracket.  The pistol reload can be done very quickly even with a half cock gun 2 to 5 seconds but most will fall into the 8 to 15 bracket.  The rifle reload 1 to 3 seconds but most will exceed 5.  The shotgun 1 to 2 but most will go 4 to 5.

If you want to mess with people put 21 rounds on the table in a bowl.  At the signal load a fire 21 rounds in any order dropped or lost rounds may be made up from the body.

I am guessing about the time differential and I have never wanted to "mess" with anyone.

 

Simply an idea that most likely will never see the light of a range - but an exercise to potentially introduce variables into the common 10-10-4.

 

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Additionally there is the variable of "fairness" for 87, 97 and SxS shooters with the single SG shot in the middle of the target sequence if one chose that route.

 

I was basing the times on my own skill sets while understanding that everyone differs.

 

Probably best to let this one die on the drawing board.

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If presented with your stage choices, I would shoot the rifle reload path. Everything needed is in my regular practice routine. 
 

That poor TO having to remember all the options and remind shooters what they need to do and when. 
 

Totes

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Yup ! Let it die 

I've attended many matches where u have written the stages and I got to say your one of my favorite MD's. Just remember if all of your ideas were %100 u'd be President or a Democrat. Lol

 

Edited by Hells Comin
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RIFLE:  I'm bout the same as most folks..... 3-4 seconds

 

PISTOL:   have no idea

 

SG:  I have been timed in the .8 range from the belt, usually no more than 1.1

 

 

..........Widder

 

 

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1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I am guessing about the time differential and I have never wanted to "mess" with anyone.

 

Simply an idea that most likely will never see the light of a range - but an exercise to potentially introduce variables into the common 10-10-4.

 

I"m sorry Creeker I never meant you would "mess" with anybody so it was certainly a poor choice of words.  However the little evil guy that can sit on my left shoulder ever now and again did smile at the idea.

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6 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

(sorry Griff).

No need, I totally understand.  

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I love the idea.  Unfortunately I don't think it would work in a match for a few reasons.

 

#1 The TO/Counter issue has already been mentioned.  Would be a nightmare trying to keep track of all the variables.

#2 There's absolutely no way in the world to accurately calculate the average speed of the three different reloads.  For that reason there's no way in the world to accurately handicap the number of shotgun rounds equitably.  (We can't make everything fair for everybody, but we should still do our best.)

#2 1/2  The three different types of reloads aren't the only variable.  The more shotgun knockdowns you have to engage the greater the chance of having to make one up.  So that's an even greater handicap. 

#3 I'd be willing to bet 99.99% of shooters will take the rifle reload option simply because it's the easiest.  So what's the point of giving options if nobody's going to take them?

#4 This goes along the same lines of thinking about far/small targets further separating the top shooters from the bottom.  I think the disparity between skill levels on this stage would be too great.  Normally I wouldn't make a big deal about that but if you try to put this stage in a match I fear it'll will cause major posse backups.  (This one is a total assumption on my part.) 

 

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1 minute ago, Shooting Bull said:

I love the idea.  Unfortunately I don't think it would work in a match for a few reasons.

 

#1 The TO/Counter issue has already been mentioned.  Would be a nightmare trying to keep track of all the variables.

#2 There's absolutely no way in the world to accurately calculate the average speed of the three different reloads.  For that reason there's no way in the world to accurately handicap the number of shotgun rounds equitably.  (We can't make everything fair for everybody, but we should still do our best.)

#2 1/2  The three different types of reloads aren't the only variable.  The more shotgun knockdowns you have to engage the greater the chance of having to make one up.  So that's an even greater handicap. 

#3 I'd be willing to bet 99.99% of shooters will take the rifle reload option simply because it's the easiest.  So what's the point of giving options if nobody's going to take them?

#4 This goes along the same lines of thinking about far/small targets further separating the top shooters from the bottom.  I think the disparity between skill levels on this stage would be too great.  Normally I wouldn't make a big deal about that but if you try to put this stage in a match I fear it'll will cause major posse backups.  (This one is a total assumption on my part.) 

 

Really there are only three "variables" to keep track of and those are solved for the counters by the starting line.

"Imma loading the rifle"

"Imma loading the pistol"

"I aint reloading"

 

Handicapping in my head goes something like...

And these are my times.

 

Up and down with the shotgun (for that single shot option) is about 2.5 seconds. 

Plus 8-12 seconds for the 8 knockdowns.

Total of a 10.5 - 14.5 second "variable"  for that choice.

 

Rifle reload option 

Planned reload (if I dont fumble and load on the table) 2 - 4 seconds.

Then 6-9 seconds for the 6 knockdowns.

Total of 8-13 seconds for that choice.

 

Pistol reload 

If I dont fumble (and remembering, I'm a gunfighter - so holstering one pistol is going to be required) 8-10 seconds.

Then 2-4 seconds for the 2 knockdowns.

Total of 10-14 seconds for that choice.

 

The guesstimate handicapping was about as close as I could figure it.

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Hi Creeker!!

 

Oh Please.  Pretty Please . . . . LET.  THIS.  ONE.  DIE!!

 

Oh, and I do prefer to split the Shotgun.  Start Shotgun, split Pistols and Rifle with Shotgun then End with Shotgun.  6 Shotgun total.  Carry yer shotgun around alot.  Come to LOVE yer Shotgun.  Did I mention I really like to split and tote the Shotgun??  I should mention that.  I really should.

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Maybe in a situation where the stage doesn't have a chance to change the outcome of a match, have three blind boxes, one with pistol reloads, one with rifle reloads, one with shotgun reloads, at the call of start, shooter picks a random box and that's what they get to reload that stage.  :D  or make the choices obvious, but the handicap could come in the form of how far from the second to last position the shooter has to travel to pickup their staged reload, so you shoot the rifle first on the far left of the stage, shoot the shotgun in the middle and shoot the pistol on the far right of the stage, they can either pickup the pistol reloads right there and finish or run back to their rifle or shotgun to finish... play with round count on that to get the desired effect.  they may give you a less scratchy rope that way...

Edited by El CupAJoe
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Generally sub 2 for rifle.  

 

 

Pistol normally about 3.5 for a single round

Edited by evil dogooder
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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Darn quick rifle reload Evil.   

 

..........Widder

 

I think mindy still has a video where I did a glory run in practice that was sub 1  with her marlin

 

 Kind words sir. Thank you

Edited by evil dogooder
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