WTC - Grounding Rifle

[Griff 1,561]

Stage called for 10 -  4 - 10. rifle, shotgun, lastly, pistol.  Start @ port arms ATB fire  rifle, then stage in vertical rack, move forward to staged SG and engage KDs.  Ground SG, then move laterally to pistol position and complete.  Order not material to query.

 

Shooter engaged 7 rifle targets, then suffered dreaded Marlin Jam... 8th round slipped under carrier.  Shooter declared "broke gun" and carried it to SG position and grounded it safely pointed downrange.  MD (also spotter at time}, called for penalty for not staging rifle as per stage instruction.

 

I feel now as then the safer option for re-staging of the rifle was horizontally with muzzle downrange into the berm.  (From my position, behind the shooters right shoulder, I could see an empty chamber and the rim of round 8 under the carrier).  What say the peanut gallery?

Edited January 11 by Griff

[Hoss 1,172]

If say no call as the “broke gun” declaration changes things. Unless going down range being the reason for the vertical staging. 
 

certainly no competitive advantage, especially eating the 3 misses! 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 4,884]

FWIW - I agree with the option chosen.
Stage instructions generally apply at the end of the shooting string (e.g. "fire the rifle, then stage in a vertical rack").

Carrying the loaded firearm forward for restaging safely after the malfunction should warrant no penalty (as long as there is no live round under the hammer).
 

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L 408]

From a 2016 version of the RO1

 

Quote

4. Don’t be a ―hard-ass.

 

 

Stan

[Shooting Bull 1,967]

By the letter of the law he violated the stage instructions.  But in this case I wholeheartedly agree with Santa Fe River Stan.  What he did was safe and offered no competitive advantage. 

 

Where this would become a problem is later in the match if a shooter carried their NON-malfunctioning rifle downranged and safed it there and was then assessed a P.  They'd have an entirely valid argument that you allowed another shooter to do it. How would you justify giving one a P and not the other? 

[twelve mile REB 562]

No, I think an invalid argument as one firearm was declared inoperative while the other was not.   

[Shooting Bull 1,967]

22 minutes ago, twelve mile REB said:

No, I think an invalid argument as one firearm was declared inoperative while the other was not.   

 

I see what you're saying but don't see how that matters.  One was carried downrange (In violation of the stage instructions) while the other wasn't.  I don't see how the operability of the two makes any difference.  

[Griff 1,561]

My reasoning was the shooter declared the malfunction... the vertical rack would be behind the TO and shooter as the moved downrange to the next shooting positions.  The horizontal table at SG position was far more stable than the vertical rack.  Frankly, not a safe position to abandon a loaded firearm.

[Captain Bill Burt 3,236]

26 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I see what you're saying but don't see how that matters.  One was carried downrange (In violation of the stage instructions) while the other wasn't.  I don't see how the operability of the two makes any difference.  

Perhaps it makes a difference because the state of the rifle caused the shooter chose to stage it downrange for safety reasons rather than vertically? Versus a shooter who stages it down range because he forgot where it was supposed to go?

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736 456]

A shooter finishes with the rifle (still functioning, not broken) then takes it with him and stages it horizontally pointed into the berm and finishes the stage. Shooter states he did not believe the vertical staging was safe so he staged it at the next position safely pointed at the berm. Going to penalize him?

[Yusta B. 1,446]

2 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

A shooter finishes with the rifle (still functioning, not broken) then takes it with him and stages it horizontally pointed into the berm and finishes the stage. Shooter states he did not believe the vertical staging was safe so he staged it at the next position safely pointed at the berm. Going to penalize him?

He probably should otta discuss that with the TO a'fore he starts the stage.

Edited January 11 by Yusta B.

[Ace_of_Hearts 1,114]

17 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

A shooter finishes with the rifle (still functioning, not broken) then takes it with him and stages it horizontally pointed into the berm and finishes the stage. Shooter states he did not believe the vertical staging was safe so he staged it at the next position safely pointed at the berm. Going to penalize him?

No!

He penalized himself.

 

[Captain Bill Burt 3,236]

53 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

A shooter finishes with the rifle (still functioning, not broken) then takes it with him and stages it horizontally pointed into the berm and finishes the stage. Shooter states he did not believe the vertical staging was safe so he staged it at the next position safely pointed at the berm. Going to penalize him?

Yes.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736 456]

With a broken rifle it was judged that it was safer to stage it horizontally at the next position. We do still have to assume that every gun is loaded so the safer place to discard the rifle appears to be at the same position as for the broken one. But I agree that this should be figured out before the match starts.

[Griff 1,561]

39 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

With a broken rifle it was judged that it was safer to stage it horizontally at the next position. We do still have to assume that every gun is loaded so the safer place to discard the rifle appears to be at the same position as for the broken one. But I agree that this should be figured out before the match starts.

As I said, the "broken" rifle still contained live rounds.  My RO III manual states it is safer on very stable horizontal surface facing into berm than on vertical rack pointed at the sky... 

[Colorado Coffinmaker 3,466]

 

PEANUTS!!!  POPCORN!!!!  CRACKER JACKS!!!!  GET YER COLD BEER!!!!

 

However, it has always been my understanding, A broken firearm w/live rounds in it was to be "Made Safe" right THERE.  Grounded or Handed off for a trip to the unloading table.  NOT carried around.  Just what I have ALWAYS seen.  Also have seen where a broken gun was to be cleared, On the line, right there (rules do change after all).  Have NEVER seen carrying it around as an option.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator 805]

Well guess I will go against majority here and call a P as did MD/spotter in OP.  I grounded declared broke rifle at 2020 WR on table instead of vertical rack as per stage instructions and received P.  P was given after two Rotation Officers discussed then had more discussion with other match officials.  No one passed in front of rifle.  It was a learning experience for me as PM and my TO, also my DPM. 

In our discussion with Rotation Officers it was brought up that often revolvers are treated with more flexibility in "broke" declaration (especially when no table is available), but that is a different subject per OPs question.

So Griff, what was the call?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 4,884]

Quote

 

FIREARM MALFUNCTIONS

In the event a shooter declares a malfunction, the shooter will be given the opportunity to make that firearm safe and continue on with the next procedure. The TO will allow the shooter to make the malfunctioning firearm safe, preferably on a nearby and appropriate horizontal surface (box, table, straw bale, ground, etc.), or if necessary, assist the shooter by allowing them to “hand off” the firearm.

 

RO2 p.8

[Griff 1,561]

13 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

So Griff, what was the call?

P.  As I would have ruled also, except for that downrange movement of shooter & RO, lack of anyone to hand it off to except TO (me), and what I felt was a less than rock solid, free-standing, 5 ft tall vertical rack.  Their club, their shooter, they didn't see my safety concern.  MD's call.

[Assassin 1,579]

Vertical staging sucks!

[Ace_of_Hearts 1,114]

1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Well guess I will go against majority here and call a P as did MD/spotter in OP.  I grounded declared broke rifle at 2020 WR on table instead of vertical rack as per stage instructions and received P.  P was given after two Rotation Officers discussed then had more discussion with other match officials.  No one passed in front of rifle.  It was a learning experience for me as PM and my TO, also my DPM. 

In our discussion with Rotation Officers it was brought up that often revolvers are treated with more flexibility in "broke" declaration (especially when no table is available), but that is a different subject per OPs question.

So Griff, what was the call?

Range officers should follow the rules. Not interpret them.

[Joe Cross, SASS #13848 L 70]

1 hour ago, Assassin said:

Vertical staging sucks!

 

We provide a table at each shooting position, just in case. No handoffs!

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator 805]

10 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Range officers should follow the rules. Not interpret them.

I felt they did at the time. Now I am not sure.  Bottom line, I did not vertically stage as stage instructions suggests.  Perhaps the "broke" declarations changes that.  However vertical staging in my case was so no one would pass in front of muzzle.  No one did but could have.  I am reading the OP may have been different situation pertaining to safety of vertical rack. 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator 805]

11 hours ago, Griff said:

P.  As I would have ruled also, except for that downrange movement of shooter & RO, lack of anyone to hand it off to except TO (me), and what I felt was a less than rock solid, free-standing, 5 ft tall vertical rack.  Their club, their shooter, they didn't see my safety concern.  MD's call.

Gotcha

[Marauder SASS #13056 1,063]

The rules are a great start, foundational. 

Add the overall guidance to maintain safety. 

Finally use logic (I didn't say commonsense, since it is no longer comm) to combine the former two concerning safety and penalties, etc.

Remember that it is impossible for the rules to include every situation - even if all stages were required to be the same every time (Do you want that?).  When we attempt to do that, you get the IRS code including many conflicting rules.

 

If we are too eager to penalize a safe solution, what are we encouraging?

 

Thanks again, Palewolf!

 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 874]

Like Stan said, and use yer brain. Was the shooter safe? Did they gain a competitive advantage? (did take three misses)

And if the exact situation arose again, treat it the same way, not apples to oranges..

Yes, vertical staging is garbage... don't use it.

Edited January 12 by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631

[Frontier Lone Rider, SASS# 73063 246]

15 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

PEANUTS!!!  POPCORN!!!!  CRACKER JACKS!!!!  GET YER COLD BEER!!!!

 

However, it has always been my understanding, A broken firearm w/live rounds in it was to be "Made Safe" right THERE.  Grounded or Handed off for a trip to the unloading table.  NOT carried around.  Just what I have ALWAYS seen.  Also have seen where a broken gun was to be cleared, On the line, right there (rules do change after all).  Have NEVER seen carrying it around as an option.

 

I was right there with you until you hit the Beer part.  As I don't partake of any alcoholic beverages, I would call for a cold sarsaparilla.

 

I personally do not like vertical staging of the long guns.  In this case, I would have handed the broken firearm off.  Of course, I am not a fast shooter and this would slow down your stage time.

[irish ike, SASS #43615 1,179]

Or, rather than stage the rifle vertically he hands it off to the TO! His option. Vertical staging has been reduced because of all the issues. Guns falling, shooter sweeping themselves, I know its OK, but looking down the barrel of a long gun while staging is nerve racking.

He, "made the gun safe" even though he staged it different than the instructions. Was it intentional to gain an advantage.......NO!

 

No P, and don't be a hard ass!

[Ace_of_Hearts 1,114]

Shooters seem to forget that the ground is a perfectly place to stage a malfunctioning firearm.

 

[Equanimous Phil 267]

15 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Shooters seem to forget that the ground is a perfectly place to stage a malfunctioning firearm.

 

If you walk downrange afterwards? 

[COLORADO JACKSON 127]

15 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

RO2 p.8

 

15 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

FIREARM MALFUNCTIONS

In the event a shooter declares a malfunction, the shooter will be given the opportunity to make that firearm safe and continue on with the next procedure. The TO will allow the shooter to make the malfunctioning firearm safe, preferably on a nearby and appropriate horizontal surface (box, table, straw bale, ground, etc.), or if necessary, assist the shooter by allowing them to “hand off” the firearm.

This should answer all questions

[Assassin 1,579]

I try not to force shooters to stage guns at any location. Less verbiage is more and potential for penalties is less. If it doesn't say, "stage gun here" they have the freedom to do whatever they want. If it's a safety concern it is addressed in the stage description. 

 

Why couldn't the shooter in the scenario move forward with the empty rifle? Was it a safety concern or just dictation from the writer? The SG was already staged at the next position, why not take allow taking the rifle. Give the stage to the shooter to run. If I see a possible advantage by taking or leaving a gun I will take it if it's not a safety concern. Why do writers write "make safe", it's already a rule. Don't add verbiage if it's already in the rules.

[DeaconKC 1,827]

Safety first.

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 874]

20 minutes ago, Assassin said:

I try not to force shooters to stage guns at any location. Less verbiage is more and potential for penalties is less. If it doesn't say, "stage gun here" they have the freedom to do whatever they want. If it's a safety concern it is addressed in the stage description. 

 

Why couldn't the shooter in the scenario move forward with the empty rifle? Was it a safety concern or just dictation from the writer? The SG was already staged at the next position, why not take allow taking the rifle. Give the stage to the shooter to run. If I see a possible advantage by taking or leaving a gun I will take it if it's not a safety concern. Why do writers write "make safe", it's already a rule. Don't add verbiage if it's already in the rules.

Isn't that was happened? Moved forward to SG position and grounded?

[Assassin 1,579]

9 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Isn't that was happened? Moved forward to SG position and grounded?

Yes, however the scenario said "place the empty rifle in the vertical rack". This conversation could have been avoided by less directives from the writer. We try to incorporate little time saving advantages into a stage, it's free time if a shooter's smart enough to find the advantage. 

Edited January 12 by Assassin