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Phantom, SASS #54973

Round found in Rifle at ULT...philosophically speaking...

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Shooter kicks out a live round at the unloading table...from their rifle. 

 

Calls a MSV...

 

Should that person also call a 5 sec penalty for the unfired round??? 

 

Or do we just assume that they loaded one too many rounds at the loading table.

 

Hmmmm....

 

Phantom

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No

 

Penalty should not be based on an assumption. 
 

What is it if you “think it is a hit”?

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For me, it's just the MSV.  If only 9 shots were fired, the TO & Spotters should have noted it - no call on that. 

 

BS

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Tough one.

 

The people up on the line, TO, and spotters would be the ones to identify that not enough rounds were fired.   At the ULT you wouldn't generally be in the best position to count rounds fired, or even be paying attention to that.

 

I think you only call what you know, and that's that a live round came out at the ULT.  If the TO and spotters didn't identify too few shots fired, then no miss.  Benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.

 

Was it a case of too few rounds fired?  Probably, but you don't 'know' that it was.

 

That's my take.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Mack Hacker, #60477 said:

No

 

Penalty should not be based on an assumption. 
 

What is it if you “think it is a hit”?

Well...yer going to HAVE to assume something.

 

Either you're going to assume that the shooter loaded too many rounds or you're going to assume that they didn't shoot all the rounds required for the stage.

 

Sooooo...which is it???

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9 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

For me, it's just the MSV.  If only 9 shots were fired, the TO & Spotters should have noted it - no call on that. 

 

BS

Yes they should have...but didn't...for what ever reason.

 

So this is the "Cowboy" way?

 

Interesting...

 

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Two assumptions, shooter shot 9 or the shooter loaded 11. Either way there's a penalty in there somewhere!

TO needs to decide.

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Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yes they should have...but didn't...for what ever reason.

 

So this is the "Cowboy" way?

 

Interesting...

 

But, did he shoot 9 or 10?? 

You "Cowboy Up" with the MSV.   Different people have different ways of loading their guns.  I use a loading strip so if this scenerio happened to me I may have ended up calling 1 MSV and 1 Miss on myself. 

The bad thing about a "What If" scenario is that you truly do not know what the outcome will be until you go through it.

 

BS

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Posted (edited)

Check with RO.. All rifle targets hit?? Yes..

 P for not following loading procedure..

(EDIT: Due to PaleWolf 's post.. NO P for loading procedure..)

So only  MSV for round in chamber at the unloading table..

 

Check with RO.. All rifle targets hit?? No.. Only 9 hits..

1 miss and MSV..

 

Rance ;)

Just my thinkin':huh: 

Edited by Rance - SASS # 54090

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No miss, piss poor counting goes in favor of the shooter, MSV only.

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Posted (edited)

You can assume anything you want, but what you KNOW is that they kicked out a live round... MSV.

Now you may want to do some investigating and see if spotters called 10 rounds fired on the line (whether they were misses or not). If the spotters got 10 rifle shots, then it's not an assumption, it was verified (as much as we humanly can at that point) that it is only a MSV. If the spotters only had 9 fired, then I sure hope they would have let the shooter know before they put the rifle down.

Was the rifle the last gun fired (bad stage design) and did it ever leave the shooter's hands before getting to the ULT??? 

Edited by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631
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I see this scenario as presented here as an ethics question. Should the shooter, thinking he may have fired one to few, notify the TO as to the possibility of there being a miss. I say yes, that is what I would do and then leave the decision to the posse. Same thing if the lunch lady gives you too much change. At the end of the day there are damn few things we can call our own, that no one can take from us. Integrity is at the top of the list.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

If only 9 shots were fired, the TO & Spotters should have noted it

 

That's how our system is designed to work.   The person(s) (TO mainly) responsible for counting shots fired are the ones who use "live evidence" that occurs during the stage to  make a call.   The Unloading Table Officer or the shooter himself uses evidence at the table to determine if an unsafe gun condition existed when the gun was restaged or laid on table.    Leave the assumptions out of it.  As always, there are usually several reasons that a live round could be found in a gun.  Including a stuck round in mag tube that did not feed LAST stage or even LAST MATCH. Call the penalties required based on the evidence - what they saw and heard.   Not on assumptions or intent or complex argument.   Keep it simple, straight forward and rely on the TO, spotter and table officers (or replace them!).  Make the best call you can, apply benefit of doubts to the shooter's advantage, and move on.

 

It's a whole 'nother post to discuss just how often the TO or spotters fail to count shots fired in major matches, even at national and world championships.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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58 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

Check with RO.. All rifle targets hit?? Yes..

 P for not following loading procedure..

...

 

There is NO PENALTY for overloading a rifle at the LT.

It used to be a MSV...until 2011:
REFERENCE

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13 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

There is NO PENALTY for overloading a rifle at the LT.

It used to be a MSV...until 2011:
REFERENCE

Number 24 in the REFERENCE needs to be updated.

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33 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

There is NO PENALTY for overloading a rifle at the LT.

It used to be a MSV...until 2011:
REFERENCE

 

So here's another question.  If the shooter realizes he loaded too many, an purposefully jacks the last rifle round out at the end of the rifle string, wouldn't that be a "No Call"

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MSV.  

Ive underlaoded and overlaoded!  (not often, but its happened!)  I use a loading block.  Just last match I underlaoded my rifle.  I would have sworn the block was full, and I put them all in my rifle, and did not jack one out, but rifle only had 9 in it.  I think the missing round fell thru a time/space contimnuim and will likley wnd up in somebodys gun somewere!!!!!

 

And yes I triple checked the mag tube at the ULT to make sure the missing round was not hung up in there..

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5 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

 

So here's another question.  If the shooter realizes he loaded too many, an purposefully jacks the last rifle round out at the end of the rifle string, wouldn't that be a "No Call"

yes, he needs to jack it out to avoid penalty.  If by chance he accidentally jacked out another round earlier he cannot use the overlaoded roud to make up for it.  (Would be a P and a miss) 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

You can assume anything you want, but what you KNOW is that they kicked out a live round... MSV.

Now you may want to do some investigating and see if spotters called 10 rounds fired on the line (whether they were misses or not). If the spotters got 10 rifle shots, then it's not an assumption, it was verified (as much as we humanly can at that point) that it is only a MSV. If the spotters only had 9 fired, then I sure hope they would have let the shooter know before they put the rifle down.

Was the rifle the last gun fired (bad stage design) and did it ever leave the shooter's hands before getting to the ULT??? 

This is what I would do. Investigate.

 

PS, I'm not wearing plaid so hopefully I'm OK to answer this hypothetical WTC.

Edited by Captain Bill Burt

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Flash said:

Number 24 in the REFERENCE needs to be updated.

Working on that right now.
SHB references also being updated

THNX

 

23 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

So here's another question.  If the shooter realizes he loaded too many, an purposefully jacks the last rifle round out at the end of the rifle string, wouldn't that be a "No Call"

 

YES...see the referenced doc.
That is stated there more than once.

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well...yer going to HAVE to assume something.

 

Either you're going to assume that the shooter loaded too many rounds or you're going to assume that they didn't shoot all the rounds required for the stage.

 

Sooooo...which is it???

At a state match a couple years ago, I was working the ULT. It was our third stage of the say, or so.

 

When working the ULT, I check to see the follower. With a 73, it requires flipping the rifle over to see it from the underside.

 

Shooter protested a bit cuz he never had to do that before. However, we talked about the reason why and he eventually did it.

 

To both our surprises, there was a round still in the magazine tube. The tube was rusted and the spring couldn't push the follower all the way down. He commented that he hadn't loaded an extra one all day, and wasn't sure how long it could have been in there.

 

gave him minor safety, got the magazine tube lubed, and the shooter continued without incident.

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Posted (edited)

The shooter should call a miss on themselves as well as the MSV. This actually happened to me match before last. I told the TO to give me a MSV for a round in the mag tube; Uberti Henry didn't push the last round onto the carrier. It did not occur to me to add a miss; but it should have and I will try to make the correct call on myself in the future. I AM positive I did not load 11 at the table.

Edited by Tyrel Cody
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Thanks Hoss, and PWB.  I should have read the reference material first.

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Nah.  Shooter kicks out live round at ULT.  Shooter is paying attention, has quick reflexes, snatches round out of the air and says "I don't see notin" and grins.  Done.

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2 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

But, did he shoot 9 or 10?? 

You "Cowboy Up" with the MSV.   Different people have different ways of loading their guns.  I use a loading strip so if this scenerio happened to me I may have ended up calling 1 MSV and 1 Miss on myself. 

The bad thing about a "What If" scenario is that you truly do not know what the outcome will be until you go through it.

 

BS

Yeah...I do know.

 

Trust me. There was no overloading. 

 

It's becoming typical of this game...the trophy is "God"...

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Posted (edited)

If you have 4 ROs (TO and 3 spotters) that missed the 10th round on the line, we have bigger problems than a MSV... jussayin.

Or were you just that dang fast? ;)

Edited by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631

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2 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

If you have 4 ROs (TO and 3 spotters) that missed the 10th round on the line, we have bigger problems than a MSV... jussayin.

Not a bigger problem - just a different problem.

 

 

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When a really fast shooter has a hickup or two, it certainly can be confusing for spotters.  If we went like the world of figure skating did and go to the "international judging system" (IJS), we would have video and instant replay available for every shooter.  Would it make it more "fair"?  Yes.  But among a lot of other logistical problems, it would make a match last 3 times as long.  So we go with "benefit of the doubt".  

 

But for some, yes, the trophy is "God'

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If the rifle was the last gun used on the stage, went to the ULT, never took his hands off of the rifle and ejected the mystery round, would it be a call at all?

 

 

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Posted (edited)

MSV for round left in the long gun, unless it was chambered, then SDQ.

Miss for the unfired round, if overloading wasn't an issue.

Replace the spotters if they didn't count nine.

 

Edited by Flying W Ramrod

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

If the rifle was the last gun used on the stage, went to the ULT, never took his hands off of the rifle and ejected the mystery round, would it be a call at all?

 

 

My understanding is that if a shooter overloads the rifle they can clear it without penalty until the first round is fired from the next gun OR if rifle is last before leaving their hands at the ULT.  So in that case, if the spotters and TO are saying clean, then it's a no call.  I found that here:

 

MSV for leaving rounds in the rifle at the end of the shooting string (shooter has until FIRING the next gun to clear it) …or...if the rifle is the last firearm used on the stage; it must be cleared before leaving the shooter's hand(s) @ the ULT.

 

http://www.oowss.com/Overloading the rifle -- PWB.pdf

 

It may be in one of the handbooks too, but I'm at work and the handbooks aren't searchable. :-(

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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Posted (edited)

SHB pg 22

Quote

Spotters/Counters – have the responsibility to count shots and misses and to
verify targets were engaged in the correct order for the required number of shots.
A minimum of three spotters are required – majority 2/3 breaks any ties in
regards to misses.

 

SHB pg 25

Quote

The CRO/TO may unilaterally assign penalties for safety violations and
procedural errors when they have clearly occurred (this does not include assessing misses).
Assessing misses is purely in the purview of the spotters.

 

SHB pg 22

Quote

5-SECOND PENALTIES
Misses are 5-Second penalties. Revolver, rifle, and shotgun targets must be engaged with
the appropriate type of firearm. A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target
type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes:
- Each missed target.
- Each unfired round.
- Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired
round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ.
- Each target hit with an incorrect firearm – either intentionally or by mistake.
- Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition.

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

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29 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

My understanding is that if a shooter overloads the rifle they can clear it without penalty until the first round is fired from the next gun OR if rifle is last before leaving their hands at the ULT.  So in that case, if the spotters and TO are saying clean, then it's a no call.  I found that here:

 

MSV for leaving rounds in the rifle at the end of the shooting string (shooter has until FIRING the next gun to clear it) …or...if the rifle is the last firearm used on the stage; it must be cleared before leaving the shooter's hand(s) @ the ULT.

 

http://www.oowss.com/Overloading the rifle -- PWB.pdf

 

It may be in one of the handbooks too, but I'm at work and the handbooks aren't searchable. :-(

 

SHB pg 16

 

Quote

If the rifle is the last firearm used (NOT recommended), it must be cleared prior
to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading area. (This does not apply to
firearms shot out of sequence, made safe, and then restaged for further use.)

 

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Several folks on this thread and many others make the comment “change the spotters” when they miss a call.  Has anybody ever actually done that? (Change our all 3 spotters at once due to a missed call). 
Spotters  should pay  attention, call what they see. But if I call a miss you can be danged sure I KNOW it was a miss. If another spotter with a different angle can point out a reasonable edger, I’ll give it to them. I NEVER change a hit call to a miss. 
 

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10 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Several folks on this thread and many others make the comment “change the spotters” when they miss a call.  Has anybody ever actually done that? (Change our all 3 spotters at once due to a missed call). 
Spotters  should pay  attention, call what they see. But if I call a miss you can be danged sure I KNOW it was a miss. If another spotter with a different angle can point out a reasonable edger, I’ll give it to them. I NEVER change a hit call to a miss. 
 

I've done it, more than once.  The spotters weren't particularly happy about it, but they weren't doing their jobs so I replaced them.  The most recent time it was a really hot day and they wanted to stand in the shade even though they didn't have a very good angle on the targets from there. 

 

Once when I was an MD I banned a shooter from running the timer or offering his opinion on the rules.  He could call hits and misses, be a scorekeeper, run the LT or the ULT, but NOT voice opinions on calls. 

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